OSSR: Ghostwalk

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Blicero
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Post by Blicero »

Okay, the middle undead bard actually looks pretty badass. If I were a necromancer, I would totally get a couple of those dudes to follow me around.

SKR actually talks about the book in this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2iep9?Ghost ... -this-went)
SKR wrote: Ghostwalk REALLY suffered at the hands of Wizards. Monte and I finished it and then they decided they weren't going to publish it.
...
Wizards hemmed and hawed for a long time and finally said, "nah, we're going to break it up into little pieces and salvage it into other game products." And then nothing happened with that for a long long time. And then they said, "Oh crap 3.5 is coming out and we have this entire book of 3.0 material, we'd better publish it," so they did, with little fanfare, about 3 months before the release of 3.5, which meant it was guaranteed to sell about ZERO copies. And they forgot to include the world map.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I just work the phrase "Wrote feats to raise money for his kitty-cat" into as many sentences with his name in it as possible.

But seriously, that's some cowardly shit right there. That's JMS-level, even. Maybe I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if it wasn't for the whole Pathfinder, Magic of Faerun, and of course the whole ridiculous kitty-kat korruption. But no.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

SKR doesn't need a demeaning nickname, he is a demeaning nickname. You might say "that looks like something SKR would design" or "don't be such a SKR!" if you wanted to insult a rule or person.

In any case, he actually has a point with the publishing delays, the lack of a world map, and even the impending 3.5 from a marketing standpoint (though it's worse than he says - the advance issues of 3.5 were already out when Ghostwalk hit the shelves). Still, while those are legitimate reasons for the book to have not done as well as it could have, the fact remains that the book is also bad and it's mostly his fault that it is bad.

The high level pitch for this book is pretty good: there's a place where ghosts are solid, and here the living and the dead live side by side. The player characters can adventure here, and continue adventuring after they turn into ghosts. That's compelling. That's also clearly Monte Cook through and through, because that's exactly the kind of broad pitch that he likes to make. And then we get to the second level pitch, which is also pretty good: there is a cosmopolitan city next to the land of the dead where the ghosts are solid and the living and the dead exist side by side and the action mostly takes place there. That's compelling too. You can conjure a lot of imagery with that. It's immediately different from other fantasy cities. You can come up with a lot of reasons why you'd want to have city adventures there and care about the politics and shit.

But while the primary and secondary pitch line were very good, that's really all there is here. The primary and secondary pitch gave them two design challenges to tackle: from a rules standpoint they had to get the rules for playing the recently deceased up and running, and from a setting standpoint they had to present a city that you'd want to adventure in and influence the politics of. Both of those challenges were utterly failed. The buck has to stop somewhere, and it's obvious who was supposed to be doing the heavy lifting as regards the design minutiae - it was SKR.

Now, obviously a setting book should include a world map somewhere. And yes, it's obvious that the cartographer actually made one at some point because for fuck's sake they had Todd (the cartographer's name is Todd) make a map of Deeran's house. But how much would that have helped? The fact is that the six nations written up are generic fantasy crap that is horrendously padded and no one gives a shit about them. Putting them on a map would be strictly superior to not doing that, but trashing them entirely and writing up nations that have actual plot hooks and D&D races in them would be better still.

When it comes down to it, SKR is correct that the book was put on ice for a long time - its use of reprint materials indicates that he finished writing it no later than 2001. And that made it look very out of date when it finally hit the shelves in 2003. But it was also a setting book, and if it had been well written it would have been a decent seller. The real reason that this book did badly was that it was badly made. And the lion's share of the reason that it was badly made is because SKR is a terrible designer.

Monte Cook makes good ideas from time to time and needs someone to reign him in when he starts doing stupid shit. SKR not only failed to edit Monte, his own portion of the book is worthless garbage.

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Post by name_here »

Also, blaming Wizards for not publishing it on time is kinda silly. The only real motivation for not publishing a book that has already been written is that it is bad.

I also have to wonder why they felt the need to make ghosts not undead. I mean, checking the type list, the only undead special that isn't appropriate for ghosts is immunity to mind-affecting spells, and it's simple enough to put in a sidebar that says something like this:
While undead are normally immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities, the ghosts in Manifest are neither mindless (like zombies) nor maddened by rage (like ghosts elsewhere). As such, they are subject to mind-affecting spells in the same manner as living creatures.
There, done. I guess maybe Darkvision, no Constitution, and using Charisma for Concentration checks might also want to go, but keeping them is also viable. Undead HD are somewhat awkward, but you're not likely to be getting racial HD anyway.

I guess it's so it doesn't make using Turn Undead and healing spells really awkward, but on the other hand making that not be awkward for ghost party members is stupid. And the Outsider type has some of its own problems, even on the creature's home plane, which I somehow doubt they bothered to fix.
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Post by erik »

name_here wrote:Also, blaming Wizards for not publishing it on time is kinda silly. The only real motivation for not publishing a book that has already been written is that it is bad.
Image

Sorry. I've just known too many incompetent managers and dipshits who would cut off their own nose to spite their face. Don't always presume intelligent self-interest as a prime motivator. I can totally see management fucking things up by not publishing because fuckwits.

While SKR deserves heaps of blame, WotC probably has a fair share as well. Fuck, they hired him, they cannot be that competent.
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Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote:Their example is to discover what the true difference between Elf souls and other humanoid souls is. I can't imagine giving a shit,
I dunno, discovering that elves are all just a carefully-bred food supply for an ancient undead tree society in their afterlife would be pretty neat. Especially when they don't know, and everyone else gets to go to the afterparty life.

FrankTrollman wrote:They are a theocracy with three religions (no idea how that works)
I assume it's basically just polytheism with three especially strong patrons. E.g. worshiping the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth. You acknowledging that the others obviously work, because they grant spells, but you maintain three completely separate religious traditions within the broad SME umbrella. Maybe you even get a council of popes.

edits: I fail forum posts.
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Post by Username17 »

Chapter 6: Adventures

Image
Question: What do these monsters have to do with the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting?
Answer: as far as I can tell,
nothing. But here they are anyway.

Probably as originally conceived, this chapter was mostly not supposed to be in this book. Ghostwalk was pitched as a setting, so I'd imagine that part of that pitch was a series of adventures set in that setting. When Ghostwalk got shelved and ultimately demoted to a stand alone book, the entire adventure path (such as it was) was condensed into this book. I don't actually think it's a full adventure path, and I'm not saying that because it fails to get you to 20th level. It's been a while since I calculated 3e experience points, but I'm pretty sure that seven encounters doesn't take you from 1st level to 4th. There are... gaps... in the adventures.

The chapter is 45 pages long (the table of contents claims 46 but is factually wrong about what page the glossary starts), and covers 7 adventures, targeting levels 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 12th level. Except... it doesn't even do that. Only the first two and the fourth are actual adventures. The others are “encounter sites.” The encounter sites don't even really seem to have anything to do with the setting, you fight giant spiders and manticores and minotaurs – things that the rest of the book can't even be fucked to write into the population demographics at all. So really there are only three adventures, and they are for 1st, 4th, and 6th level characters.

Actually, there some kind of neat ideas in the three adventures that actually exist. There's a theater company that is secretly run by evil undead who wear masks that let them appear as living beings. But the grand master plans are retarded. Having undead working to “destroy all the ghosts” doesn't make any sense. The adventures try to sell me on the undead and the Yuan-Ti as the big bads of the setting, but it just comes off as weird and pointless.

These adventures are highly telegraphic and seemingly unfinished. More than half of these are just set pieces that don't have beginnings or ends. I can't help thinking that most or all of this chapter was never intended to be included in this book. Probably some of these were never intended for the Ghostwalk campaign setting at all and were just things that were lying around. Which brings up how thin this book is all around. Without this chapter that doesn't seem to fully belong, the whole book is less than 180 pages, which is chump change compared to a setting book like Forgotten Realms (320 pages), Eberron (288 pages), or even Kingdoms of Kalamar (272 pages). And to get it up to that page count they had to heap filler into every chapter. When you total up how many paragraphs are spent on the simple idea that they hadn't really created much space for the Barbarian class in the setting, it adds up to multiple pages. Multiple pages that could have been used to write up several additional countries or organizations and actually create some fucking play space for the class.

The bottom line here is that this setting really only has three main ideas, and neither of them are well developed. The thing where they did away with level loss for resurrection is good, and creates a different play dynamic. But even that wasn't developed properly because to have the respawning work properly they needed a zero level ghost template which they didn't provide. The living and the dead thing is cool, but again it needed streamlined and functional ghosts and that just isn't happening here. Ghosts are a pile of weird non-sensical exceptions and make everyone sad. And of course, the city needed to be developed deeply enough to have things to do in it. As is, it's barely a line of shops that you can visit between trips to the local dungeon.

The book has some interesting anecdotes. There is a bit on “jumpers” (who are people that put away the money to get themselves raised and then kill themselves so they can check out being a ghost for a few days). There's a story about a woman who told her family that she'd give out the key to her treasure to the first person who met up with her in the city of the dead, prompting a cross country race as soon as she kicked it. And so on. Some of these stories are actually pretty good, and would have made a fine inclusion in a sidebar. With a little work, it could have been a neat little deal where they had “Stories of Manifest” that showed up every few pages in special boxed text. But interspersed with the main text, it's just jarring. You're supposed to tell me about the economy of a city that gets some unknown number of thousands of naked penniless immigrants who may not even speak the local language every day and you're taking valuable paragraphs that could be explaining what kind of amazingly advanced credit system makes all this work and instead you're telling a wholly unrelated story about some dude who died two hundred years ago. There are enough kind of cool little story ideas in here that I have no doubt that Monte was able to wow everyone at the pitch meeting. But the actual setting gets essentially no development and those stories just get rammed into the main text body at random.

The adherence to white and black morality does this setting no favors at all. I don't think there are a lot of people who want to play in a setting about the living and the dead living side by side who simultaneously also demand that “undead are bad” be an ironclad rule of business. It just doesn't make sense. The humanocentricity of everything is just bizarre when it's supposed to be sitting on the gate that every dead humanoid from everywhere has to walk through. Orcs and Goblins and stuff just don't even get written into the population dynamics, and that makes no sense. The segregation of the monster races actually feels squicky in this context. Apparently lizardfolk have to hide their forms behind alter self masks to meet their ancestors. Half Orcs meet in secret tunnels to be allowed to bury their dead. There is a fucking bounty on the scalps of Yuan-Ti, which you can collect without proving that the particular Yuan-Ti you killed were actually doing anything villainous before you stabbed them to death. The casual racism is so uncompromising that it actually makes my gut side with Team Evil here. It's seriously like reading segregation apologia from Southern Gentlemen, the point of view faction doesn't come off well. And I'm one hundred percent certain that this book isn't actually self-aware to notice that it's doing it – but their constant use of propaganda-words like “foul,” “taint,” and “corruption” don't actually make the bad guys seem bad – just on the other side from the one the authors want you to be on.

All in all, Ghostwalk is a failure. There are some good high concept ideas, some nice stories, but the meat of development is undone. The actual design of the setting is sketchily designed, with a lot of filler pieces and a format created to spread limited content over a larger amount of pages. Even within that context, they had to dump extra crap that frankly doesn't belong here at all into the book to make their page counts. Would Ghostwalk have been good if people had put in the extra work it needed? Maybe. It's hard to tell, because I would say this stuff isn't even a quarter finished. That SKR and Monte would say this thing was done says bad things about their work ethic and design skills.

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Post by Blicero »

Do you think this might have been the worst-selling 3.0 book? I'm trying to remember, and I can't think of any major clunkers? Hell, was Ghostwalk capable even of selling more poorly than shit like Magic of Blue?
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Post by Username17 »

Blicero wrote:Do you think this might have been the worst-selling 3.0 book? I'm trying to remember, and I can't think of any major clunkers? Hell, was Ghostwalk capable even of selling more poorly than shit like Magic of Blue?
I don't know if it was the worst selling 3.0 book. It was the last 3.0 book, and came out just as the advance copies of 3.5 were hitting the shelves. So it would have a pretty good reason for being the worst selling 3.0 book. Still, there are books like Silver Marches that were explicitly admitted to be poor sellers. SKR has a whole whiny diatribe about how people are mean and short sighted because they didn't buy enough copies of Silver Marches and now the bean counters were going to demand that there by crunch in all books forever more. Yes, really.

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Post by Antariuk »

Ok, after reading this review I had to crack open my copy of Ghostwalk and see for myself. What a ghastly bunch of crap...

Especially the undercity beneith Manifest drives me crazy. I can totally live with the way D&D authors think about ruins (apparently, if a city gets burned down, it leaves a hollowed hill where you can still navigate streets and enter houses underground), but that some petty thugs fight with monsters and liches about district control underneath the shopping mall is just ludicrous.

I actually used Manifest once as a plugin for a sandbox game, but I remembered only the bare bones and the city got a whole new fey motif during play, which turned out not so bad in the end. Reading the actual chapter now makes me glad I forgot all the details.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

FrankTrollman wrote: Yes, really
.

I'm at work, and our version of Internet Explorer is woefully outdated, but that page displays text over pictures on the left and right. It's totally unreadable in the default display.

It sounds like SKR thinks that companies should release RPG material as a charity. Which would mean that hiring him would also be a charity case.

I think 3.x may have skewed to hard to Crunch Only, but they were well on the way from the beginning. The best books tie the crunch and fluff together, but recognize that the fluff can and should be changed for different campaigns. I think tying things more into an assumed setting would have been good. For example, Sandstorm could have included 'Arabian Nights Inspired' classes, prestige classes, feats and spells, rather than just 'sand magic'. Then if you want 'mamluk' to be a warrior caste in a non-sand setting, you can cut and paste it, but you already know how it COULD fit with other classes that 'fit' that setting. '

But I'm babbling.
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Post by Seerow »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Blicero wrote:Do you think this might have been the worst-selling 3.0 book? I'm trying to remember, and I can't think of any major clunkers? Hell, was Ghostwalk capable even of selling more poorly than shit like Magic of Blue?
I don't know if it was the worst selling 3.0 book. It was the last 3.0 book, and came out just as the advance copies of 3.5 were hitting the shelves. So it would have a pretty good reason for being the worst selling 3.0 book. Still, there are books like Silver Marches that were explicitly admitted to be poor sellers. SKR has a whole whiny diatribe about how people are mean and short sighted because they didn't buy enough copies of Silver Marches and now the bean counters were going to demand that there by crunch in all books forever more. Yes, really.

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I never cared much for Forgotten Realms material, so what I know of it is what people on forums pull out of it via dumpster diving. So I'm curious, was Silver Marches and other earlier FR books really just 100% fluff with no crunch? Or were they things like a few crunchy bits with tons of fluff surrounding it?


Also, having read that article, the real question is who would want to buy a book of nothing but fluff written by that guy? He's not actually an entertaining writer. I don't get it.
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Post by Username17 »

Seerow wrote: I never cared much for Forgotten Realms material, so what I know of it is what people on forums pull out of it via dumpster diving. So I'm curious, was Silver Marches and other earlier FR books really just 100% fluff with no crunch? Or were they things like a few crunchy bits with tons of fluff surrounding it?
Silver Marches has about 5 actual pages with some crunch on them. That is not an exaggeration. There's a mundane archer prestige class called the "Peerless Archer" that is completely generic, but there's some fluff ramblings about how some people in the Silver Marches use bows. Sometimes people would grab that for archer builds. All told, there's a "Heroes of the North" section that starts on page 109 and contains six actual prestige classes: Giant-Killer, Hordebreaker, Knight Errant of Silverymoon, Orc Scout, Peerless Archer, and Wild Scout. Then there's a monsters section which has the deer, the elk (yes I know that elks are a kind of deer, shut up), the red tiger, the giant raven, the branta, the rock wyrm, and the snowcloak. Technically it's 14 pages from the beginning of the section with crunch in it to the end, but there's a fair amount of padding. With the exception of the Knight Errant of Silverymoon, none of the crunch in that book has any obvious connection to the territory being described.

Seerow wrote:Also, having read that article, the real question is who would want to buy a book of nothing but fluff written by that guy? He's not actually an entertaining writer. I don't get it.
That is a better question. I really couldn't answer you there. He is actually pretty bad with fluff, and outright says that he isn't interested in writing crunch. When they ask him to talk to fans he throws hissy fits, belittles them, and issues contradictory rulings. I genuinely don't understand why he gets hired as a game designer or a writer. He has no discernible talent in any seemingly necessary field.

Of course, I don't think SKR actually worked on Silver Marches. That book was Ed Greenwood and Jason Carl. It's 140 pages and over a hundred of them are spent in a dry list of places in the Silver Marches - which is basically a big forest that mostly serves as a low level zone and no one much cares about. Here is an actual sample of the riveting material you are missing by not reading this book:
Silver Marches wrote:Hellgate Keep
Now buried under the northeast corner of the forest, this citadel of evil was razed in 1368 DR. Turlang and his treants moved to advance the borders of the forest and submerge the old fortress in the depths of the trees. Adventurers seeking to disturb the ruins are turned back by the treants.

Lost Peaks
These forested mountains dominate the northwest corner of the High Forest. Many fey dwell around these peaks, as well as a large tribe of centaurs who keep a careful eye on human hunters and woodcutters from Olostin's Hold. A long-forgotten dwarfhold lies under the easternmost of the Lost Peaks. More than a thousand years ago some terrible curse or plague swept the place, killing all within. Their moldering remains still lie where they fell, some by their forges, others in their homes. Whatever evil thing happened here seems long over - for now.
These plotless, directionless LotR fanfiction locations go on for a long, long time. I didn't cherry pick, that was literally a random page generated with actual dice. No one cares about Silver Marches because 90% of the book is just transliterations of Ed Greenwoods location notes from the 80s when he was even more of a Tolkien fanboy than he is now.

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Post by erik »

I bought Ghostwalk since it promised to be 3e, and I had a severe hating going on for 3.5 and it was one of my last WotC purchases. I didn't have any strong emotions for the book, there just wasn't a single damned thing I wanted to use from it. I'd say it ranks among my least useful *and* least entertaining books.
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Post by Koumei »

I didn't buy Ghostwalk. Someone at uni bought it and tried to show how amazing it was, and every single thing he said made it sound worse. So I trolled him with my own houserule on ghosts: if a PC dies, they get the Ghost template for free. They can choose their unfinished business, which can include such things as "The campaign". As I was a fan of Sorcerers, I was 100% okay with this meaning Sorcerers are the best choice (spellcasting is less boned than swording when you're a ghost, Charisma-based racial abilities, very easy for that death to actually happen, best returns on the hit die change etc.)

He then moved on to d20 modern, before deciding that Mutants and Masterminds was the game for him. And while that's an admirable game system, he specifically wanted it for "gritty noir detective games". Mostly using the word noir, in the way that makes you suspect someone doesn't know what the word means.
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Post by Heisenberg »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I just work the phrase "Wrote feats to raise money for his kitty-cat" into as many sentences with his name in it as possible.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, what, what, what?

Explain this to me.
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Post by fectin »

Exactly what it sounds like.

relevant: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=109346#109346

Also, I found this while looking for the first link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... /20030401c
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Post by OgreBattle »

Do Ghostwalk Ghosts age? If a child dies, do they appear in Manifest as a child forever (or until they go down the hole)?

Do awakened animals manifest in Manifest?

If you kill an underdungeon monster, does it reappear in manifest as a solid ghost?
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Post by Username17 »

The ghosts of non-humanoids get sucked into the hole and don't have the choice to stick around. Ghosts don't really seem to age, but the simple mechanics of what being a ghost means are not really well fleshed out in this book. There are ways to sculpt ectoplasm, so eventually a child ghost could look like a firetruck or something if they wanted to.

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Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:There are ways to sculpt ectoplasm, so eventually a child ghost could look like a firetruck or something if they wanted to.
They're kids, so they want to.
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Post by Leress »

The only SKR book I actually like was Swords into Plowshares and he wrote probably one or two of the entries in that book.
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Post by codeGlaze »

FrankTrollman wrote:SKR has a whole whiny diatribe about how people are mean and short sighted because they didn't buy enough copies of Silver Marches and now the bean counters were going to demand that there by crunch in all books forever more. Yes, really.

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That entire thing was fucking retarded.
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