Can high SR equal useful fighters?

[RobbyPants]

It seems like a lot of people missed the OP body and conflated it with the title.

The suggestion is not to give SR to Fighters to make them matter more - the suggestion is to give SR to Wizards. The intention is that if Wizards can't hurt other Wizards through 'magic', stabbing wizards becomes the thing to do. So wizards in a duel would gank each other with daggers, and a Fighter would try to slash an enemy wizard down while his Wizard liege stood around being mostly ineffective (or was forced to spend time buffing the Fighter instead of himself).

Yeah, but it still doesn't do that. The casters just put more emphasis on SR: No spells than they already do, and call it a day.

[JigokuBosatsu]

A non-canon epilogue to one of my books is written by "Juan del Facio-Endiaz".

[TheFlatline]

It seems like a lot of people missed the OP body and conflated it with the title.

The suggestion is not to give SR to Fighters to make them matter more - the suggestion is to give SR to Wizards. The intention is that if Wizards can't hurt other Wizards through 'magic', stabbing wizards becomes the thing to do. So wizards in a duel would gank each other with daggers, and a Fighter would try to slash an enemy wizard down while his Wizard liege stood around being mostly ineffective (or was forced to spend time buffing the Fighter instead of himself).

Besides the fact that the idea is pretty much unworkable (it makes just as much sense for the Wizard to buff himself and stab the enemy wizard as it does for him to buff the Fighter and let him do it), there are lots of spells that would bypass the enemy wizard's SR - and while it wouldn't likely make Fighters suck any more (since so few of their attacks are negated by SR) it would actually make wizards noticeably BETTER because they're getting more stuff. The Fighters are going to spend just as much time being dominated as before - but Wizards won't have to worry about fireballs anymore.

I'm amused that a proposed solution to mages being overpowered was to just make them more powerful and that would fix everything.

It's the theory of trickle-down economics in RPGs. If you just give enough power to the Wizards, eventually the Fighters will become more powerful as the benefits trickle down.

[GâtFromKI]

In 2e, the fighter is the slowest class to level up from level 7 to level 14.

fighter:
level 7: 64,000
level 14: 1,500,000

wizard:
level 7: 60,000
level 14: 1,500,000

yeah, learn some math skills

4000<0:false

Hey stupid, Aren't you even able to feal with basic maths? How can you pretend to play AD&D2 while you obviously don't understand what an inequality is?

Here are some inequalities, stupid:
64000 > 60000 > 55000 > 40000 > 35000
125000 > 110000 > 90000 > 70000 > 60000
250000 > 225000 > 135000 > 110000 > 90000
500000 > 450000 > 250000 > 160000 > 125000
750000 > 675000 > 375000 > 220000 > 200000
1000000 > 900000 > 750000 > 440000 > 300000
1250000 > 1125000 = 1125000 > 750000 > 660000
1500000 = 1500000 = 1500000 > 1350000 > 880000
I think it's learned in primary school.

In AD&D2, martial classes are the second slowest classes during a third of the game, the slowest classes during the second third of the game, and are a piece of shit when magic rules the game. Anyone with a PHB and the ability to count knows that.

maybe you should leave the video game nonsense alone and grab a real PHB, because barbarian isnt even a PHB class. there are Athas classes called barbarian, fighter kits, and a few other settings have their own barbarian... being BG i would assume this is the FR variant.. so i am NOT going to take a video game anything as proof of 2nd edition

Hey stupid, the xp tables in Balur are the same as in AD&D2. You'd know it if you had read the AD&D2 PHB, stupid; The table from Baldur are just easier to find on the net than the tables from the PHB. Since they contain the same data, nobody cares except some stupid people like you who don't understand what an equality is.

Have you ever read the AD&D2 PHB? Have you even been in primary school, stupid?

[Saxony]

It seems like a lot of people missed the OP body and conflated it with the title.

The suggestion is not to give SR to Fighters to make them matter more - the suggestion is to give SR to Wizards. The intention is that if Wizards can't hurt other Wizards through 'magic', stabbing wizards becomes the thing to do. So wizards in a duel would gank each other with daggers, and a Fighter would try to slash an enemy wizard down while his Wizard liege stood around being mostly ineffective (or was forced to spend time buffing the Fighter instead of himself).

Besides the fact that the idea is pretty much unworkable (it makes just as much sense for the Wizard to buff himself and stab the enemy wizard as it does for him to buff the Fighter and let him do it), there are lots of spells that would bypass the enemy wizard's SR - and while it wouldn't likely make Fighters suck any more (since so few of their attacks are negated by SR) it would actually make wizards noticeably BETTER because they're getting more stuff. The Fighters are going to spend just as much time being dominated as before - but Wizards won't have to worry about fireballs anymore.

I'm amused that a proposed solution to mages being overpowered was to just make them more powerful and that would fix everything.

It's the theory of trickle-down economics in RPGs. If you just give enough power to the Wizards, eventually the Fighters will become more powerful as the benefits trickle down.

You're being belligerent. The idea actually works well, since it makes mages less powerful against each other.

The main concept of using SR to make magic less effective doesn't really work because of the spells that don't grant spell resistance. Granted, there aren't very many. But there are a few that are pretty powerful.

[TheFlatline]

So.... you disagree and then you agree with me. Interesting.

SR is generally considered a power-up. Therefore, the proposed solution to mages being overpowered is to power them up more.

Except that as Frank pointed out, that's bullshit because NPC wizard-on-wizard duels aren't even a common thing outside of optimization forums. And even if that *was* the status quo, you still have quadratic mages going against linear fighters. Mage casts fly, goes up into the sky, maybe casts mirror image or invisibility or whatever and drops Hiroshima on the fighter. End of fight. Only now the mage on the other team can't do anything about it. But that's in the hypothetical NPC arena.

All it does in reality is make wizards *more* powerful, because it turns some monsters that use magic into a cakewalk RAW. You'd have to go through and overhaul every monster printed to compensate, and that's a level of idiocy reserved for 4th edition.

So no, I'm not being belligerent (and even if I was, this is the fucking den. Grow a sack.) when I say that the OP was proposing the trickle-down Fighter Powerup. It's not the first time either that someone's solution to quadratic wizard linear fighter is to up the power of the wizard.

The problem with wizard vs fighter is that in D&D it's assumed that magic can pretty much replicate everything. The *only* division is basically healing magic being strictly divine vs arcane. And I'm sure someone has toyed with killing off that sacred cow to make magic more awesome.

[shadzar]

In 2e, the fighter is the slowest class to level up from level 7 to level 14.

fighter:
level 7: 64,000
level 14: 1,500,000

wizard:
level 7: 60,000
level 14: 1,500,000

yeah, learn some math skills

4000<0:false

try reading again. and if the flat out point that it takes a fighter LESS XP to get from level 7 to level 14 than it does a wizard doesnt disprove you enough because you flat out fail at basic math...


then consider the XP per level doesn't matter in 2e that much as it isnt intended ALL classes to be at the same level all the time, and check DMG tables 33 and 34 to see why the fighter advances faster even TO level 7 that it takes more to reach than the wizard, and even beyond.

[Saxony]

I must have gotten a bit confused. You're right on several points Flatline.

[JigokuBosatsu]

I like this idea, because it really is a suggestion to make a completely different game out of D&D.

[Seerow]

I like this idea, because it really is a suggestion to make a completely different game out of D&D.

I'm really hoping I just failed a sense motive check.

[zugschef]

try reading again. and if the flat out point that it takes a fighter LESS XP to get from level 7 to level 14 than it does a wizard doesnt disprove you enough because you flat out fail at basic math...


then consider the XP per level doesn't matter in 2e that much as it isnt intended ALL classes to be at the same level all the time, and check DMG tables 33 and 34 to see why the fighter advances faster even TO level 7 that it takes more to reach than the wizard, and even beyond.

"
Level six arcane spells basically close the book and at level 12 a fighter needs to have one million XP while a mage only needs three quarters of a million XP.

[GâtFromKI]

Does Shadzar actually know something about AD&D2?

I mean, last time he was pretending that a lame +1 dagger with "golem in its name was able to harm the Golem God. Now he pretends that 60000 is greater than 64000, how can anyone think he is able to deal with AD&D2 basic maths (like subtraction of negative numbers)?

[Lago PARANOIA]

The narrator should be called, "Monsieur Manuel", or something

Curse you for making me smile at that.

[NineInchNall]

Um ... So a Mage hits 7 at 60000, and gets to 14 at 1.5 mil. A Fighter hits 7 at 64000 and gets to 14 at 1.5 mil. The Mage takes 4000 more to make the journey from 7 to 14.

However, since the mage hits 7 first, and they both get to 14 at the same time, this seems in general a win for the Mage.

And someone fix the fucking tags.

[shadzar]

my point was his/her/its claim that the fighter is slowest to go from 7 to 14 is proven wrong in the very link provided to support the claim because the wizard takes 4000 more XP than the fighter to get there. so the fighter can NOT be slowest since the wizard is slower.

Does Shadzar actually know something about AD&D2?

I mean, last time he was pretending that a lame +1 dagger with "golem in its name was able to harm the Golem God. Now he pretends that 60000 is greater than 64000, how can anyone think he is able to deal with AD&D2 basic maths (like subtraction of negative numbers)?

for those 3tards it is really simple. golemblight or the original dagger it was made from is the precursor to your stupid editions "Bane" class of weapons.

now if you apply that, you could get that golemblight is +2 normally against everything and then +3 against golems, or it could be like "Sword +1, +4 vs. reptiles" making it a Dagger +2, +1 vs. golems. wherein it has the special properties required to hit golems as a specific rule that overrides the general rules of whatever it says golem needs to hit them.

now i may have mixed up the adventure version of the dagger in and encyclopedia version as far as the bonus it gives normally, but the point remains. it is effectively a Golem Bane dagger for AD&D.

it really isnt that hard to fucking figure out if you 3tards would crack open your DMG to page 224.

which is pretty pathetic who you all like to bitch how little i know about 2e, but in fact you don't know a damn thing about your own edition enough to see the correlation between two things presented in both.


come back and try again when you take the barrel of cocks out of your mouth.

[codeGlaze]

Broken tags, broken thread?

[JigokuBosatsu]

If WIZARD=BROKEN, then WIZARD THREAD=BROKEN ______?

[OgreBattle]

If WIZARD=BROKEN, then WIZARD THREAD=BROKEN ______?

[tussock]

I was expecting a thread where someone suggested giving huge SR to non-casters, and then found myself confronted by the idea that Wizards should be immune to spells so as to "help Fighters".

Dude should write for Paizo, that's the sort of help they keep giving Fighters.

[shadzar]

yeah, everyone sort of ignored the idea of buffing wizards to nerf wizards so fighters are better concept without even blinking.