What's the worst a game can get before becoming unplayable?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. 1E D&D pretty much cannot be played as written. We don't even need to do a balance check; important rules are hidden away. 2E and 4E D&D are just barely playable. As in they have large gaping rules holes and common gameplay setups (like skill challenges or just fucking rolling up a 1st level 2E party) are unfair and frustrating if not unplayable.

So I'm wondering: what's the crappiest game ever published that still just barely manages to be playable on its own terms? How about just barely manages to be unplayable?

[OgreBattle]

RIFTS

[Grek]

What do you mean, unplayable? Clearly people have played both 1E and RIFTS, so it can't be impossible. Do you maybe mean "unhavefunable?"

[darkmaster]

The rules as written can be used to played without alteration. I thought this was obvious in the context of Prak's post.

[BearsAreBrown]

The rules as written can be used to played without alteration. I thought this was obvious in the context of Prak's post.

Except "rules as written" is a very troublesome phrase. Clearly there are people who play 4E without (knowingly) altering the rules. Is somebody who doesn't penalize Monks for not being proficient in Unarmed Strikes not playing "rules as written" 3.5e?

[Koumei]

Well, people play/played Old World of Darkness without having a fucking clue what was going on, and basically making every game a patchwork of house rules with the central theme of "Roll some amount of d10, roll high". Even where it did have rules, they were contradictory from book to book (or page to page in the same book), and it was designed to confuse people and make them throw the rules away.

And yet people still played the game and theoretically used the rules. So I'm not sure there really is a limit.

[Longes]

Well, people play/played Old World of Darkness without having a fucking clue what was going on, and basically making every game a patchwork of house rules with the central theme of "Roll some amount of d10, roll high". Even where it did have rules, they were contradictory from book to book (or page to page in the same book), and it was designed to confuse people and make them throw the rules away.

And yet people still played the game and theoretically used the rules. So I'm not sure there really is a limit.

From my experience, WoD games are more "games with the WoD setting" than "games with the WoD rules". Every single combat I've participated in went like this: "Throw (weapon skill+dexterity)d10 untill Longes the Malkavian doesn't use Voice of Madness."

[K]

FATE.

The core book is 200 pages of rules that tell you to write several hundred pages of rules before you can play it.

[talozin]

If you're starting from the idea that 1E is "unplayable" and 4E is "just barely playable" then the vast majority of role-playing games ever published will probably fit into one category or the other, so you can take your pick.

The worst written game I have ever personally experienced is easily World of Synnibar, which is five hundred pages long and for all practical purposes unreadable. It's a vomitous combination of bad writing, horrific prose style, and indefensible game design -- like what you'd get if you allowed Evil Mirror Universe Kevin Siembieda to create the game mechanics and Evil Mirror Universe Gary Gygax to write the book. But it is probably "playable" for some sufficiently masochistic definition of the term.

[name_here]

Any game in which it is possible to complete character generation and that has a resolution mechanic is theoretically playable.

Note: I have heard of a game that, by RAW, can theoretically forbid you from creating a character because you're only supposed to get a limited number of runs through chargen and can get your character killed in chargen.

[Username17]

HOL isn't a game, it's a surrealist punk art installation. No one has ever actually played a HOL campaign, and I don't think anyone can. Fundamentally, all RPGs require an enormous amount of mind caulk to play. Even good RPGs require an enormous amount of mind caulk, and bad games require even more than that. So if there isn't some sort of internal logic to how things work, the game can't be played. Shitty, contradictory, and incomplete rules don't actually stop the make believe train as long as there's some sort of internal logic that players can hang their hat on. If you break that, no amount of mind caulk helps and the game hangs on a divide by zero error.

-Username17

[RadiantPhoenix]

"HOL"?

[TheFlatline]

Mutant Chronicles RPG 1st edition.

It's... "technically" playable... but has such awesome things as a lifepath generator that frequently either kills PCs in chargen or leaves them as a brain dead quadriplegic.

The best part is that they forgot the chapter on magic. Seriously. They start by describing the faction that can use magic on the first page, and in mid-sentence they move on to the next page- which is the start of the weapons chapter. No missing numbers or anything, they just... forgot to put in the rest of the magic chapter.

The rest of the game is about that quality.

[CCarter]

If you're starting from the idea that 1E is "unplayable" and 4E is "just barely playable" then the vast majority of role-playing games ever published will probably fit into one category or the other, so you can take your pick.

The worst written game I have ever personally experienced is easily World of Synnibar, which is five hundred pages long and for all practical purposes unreadable. It's a vomitous combination of bad writing, horrific prose style, and indefensible game design -- like what you'd get if you allowed Evil Mirror Universe Kevin Siembieda to create the game mechanics and Evil Mirror Universe Gary Gygax to write the book. But it is probably "playable" for some sufficiently masochistic definition of the term.

Synnibarr is really bad. Though I think our real Kevin Siembieda is the Evil Mirror universe Kevin Siembieda.

Any game in which it is possible to complete character generation and that has a resolution mechanic is theoretically playable.

Note: I have heard of a game that, by RAW, can theoretically forbid you from creating a character because you're only supposed to get a limited number of runs through chargen and can get your character killed in chargen.

deadEarth, I think.

[fectin]

"HOL"?

Human Occupied Landfill. It's actually a WW game, IIRC, but its more parody and less playable than ORK! HOL is notable for... No, wait, I'm lying. Among HOL's quirks is that it doesn't include character generation rules. At all.
If you've seen '70s comics like the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, imagine that being turned into a post-apocalyptic, space-opera game, by people who gave exactly zero fucks.

Buttery Wholesomeness (its only expansion) adds Traveller style character generation though. It's an excellent illustration of why that's a bad system.

[Prak]

RIFTS

RIFTS is far from unplayable. Unbalanced, certainly, but I've played a couple games and it does work out if everyone's on the same power level.

The rules as written can be used to played without alteration. I thought this was obvious in the context of Prak's post.

Which post?

Well, people play/played Old World of Darkness without having a fucking clue what was going on, and basically making every game a patchwork of house rules with the central theme of "Roll some amount of d10, roll high". Even where it did have rules, they were contradictory from book to book (or page to page in the same book), and it was designed to confuse people and make them throw the rules away.

And yet people still played the game and theoretically used the rules. So I'm not sure there really is a limit.

Theoretically, WoD could be played as written. I don't know whether it is, because of the GMs I've played under, no one used it as written, they used the basic mechanic and ad hocced pretty much everything else. Now I'm curious about playing WoD as written...

FATE.

The core book is 200 pages of rules that tell you to write several hundred pages of rules before you can play it.

I don't know about FATE standard, but I played a oneshot of Dresden Files which uses FATE and it worked fine sans houserules. Once everyone wrapped their heads around zones and the magic rules.

Edit: Do not search Pirate Bay for "HoL." 98% of the results are porn.

[fbmf]

"HOL"?

So fectin just totally REPORTED this post, and in the explanation he wrote.

Human Occupied Landfill. It's actually a WW game, IIRC, but its more parody and less playable than ORK! HOL is notable for... No, wait, I'm lying. Among HOL's quirks is that it doesn't include character generation rules. At all.
If you've seen '70s art like the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, imagine that being turned into a post-apocalyptic, space-opera game, by people who gave exactly zero fucks.

Buttery Wholesomeness (its only expansion) adds Traveller style character generation though. It's an excellent illustration of why that's a bad system.

I'm thinking he meant to hit REPLY. If I'm wrong, fectin, I sincerely apologize, but then I'm going to need more explanation regarding your problem with the post.

[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

[fectin]

I meant to hit reply. No wonder I had to try three times before it posted.

iPhone and beer. It's a rough combo.

[Dogbert]

Requiem: Two words... PREDATOR TAINT.

Traveller: Because Traveller.

Bird Studio's DB-Z game: The embodiment of schoolyard dynamics in tabletop.

[K]

FATE.

The core book is 200 pages of rules that tell you to write several hundred pages of rules before you can play it.

I don't know about FATE standard, but I played a oneshot of Dresden Files which uses FATE and it worked fine sans houserules. Once everyone wrapped their heads around zones and the magic rules.

FATE Core is basically 200 pages of rules for MTP results in around 95% of situations. It's hard to notice when you roll so many dice and track so many stats, so I'm not surprised that you missed it.

The various setting-specific additions to FATE Core start to resemble actual games. There are various resource pools and nailed-down limits to what various powers can do, but most of that is undermined by the fact that basic FATE tasks like Creating Advantage with a power is strict MTP.

[shadzar]

So. 1E D&D pretty much cannot be played as written.

and yet people have been playing it longer than you have been alive. maybe your generation is just stupid induced by poor schooling that keeps failing as it lets everyone graduate every year so they don't turn emo?

it is a jumbled mess that needed an editor, but it can be played if you remove the Gary from it and distill out the "game" within.

[Prak]

...did "SHIT IN YOUR HAND" Shadzar just imply that Gygax was the main problem with 1e?

[TiaC]

Shad has never been all that fond of Gygax actually. I've seen this sort of thing from him before. Of course, he dislikes Gygax for quite different reasons than most Denners.

[Cyberzombie]

So. 1E D&D pretty much cannot be played as written.

and yet people have been playing it longer than you have been alive. maybe your generation is just stupid induced by poor schooling that keeps failing as it lets everyone graduate every year so they don't turn emo?

It's not stupidity. It's the modern design philosophy that's obsessed with rules for everything and being ultra literalistic with every bit of rules text. The flavor, story and common sense have all taken a backseat to the rules. It's that philosophy tends to make RPGs unplayable, because it's a direct contradiction to the open-ended gameplay most people want in an RPG.

I suspect there's going to be a shift in design paradigm in the future, and the next generation will be a shift more towards a less technical gaming style. 10-20 years down the road RPG fans will be looking back at this age of gaming in the same way that we look back at AD&D and RIFTS.

In some ways 4E was actually a good thing for the industry because it showed everyone the final evolution of the rules-literalistic style of gaming, a sterile board game. Every option that couldn't be 100% codified was removed and the game was left dull and lifeless, like you were playing a turn-based version of Diablo without all the pretty graphics and the fast paced gameplay.

[shadzar]

Shad has never been all that fond of Gygax actually. I've seen this sort of thing from him before. Of course, he dislikes Gygax for quite different reasons than most Denners.

neither like nor dislike him, but do NOT agree with him most times outside of "D&D...medieval fantasy....".

not all his mistakes are solely his fault, but his ideas and opinions are his and his alone to claim, nobody else can be faulted for them like "there needs to be a tournament style D&D". sorry Mentzer, but no, your work was for naught because Gary was wrong. there is NO need for competition in any way in a cooperative game.

also Gary comes from the age of idiots where they think it impressive to use a $2 word when a 25 cent word will do. i am all for broadening vocabularies, but unless you are William Shakespeare, you don't need to use 600 different words for things and turn around and call everything in the game a "level" because you failed your spot check in a thesaurus for synonyms to just that one word.

so thanks to Gary the books are unplayable with because you can't find anything in them, but if you transcribe the content into speaking/casual English the game is pretty fun. thus why i do LIKE 1st edition, just it is a pain in the ass to play using the books. that isnt the games fault, or the deign of the game that makes it unplayable, just shitty editing and layout from an author who is not good for writing instruction manuals.

1st books are like getting some model kit and it including only Chinese language and diagrams. you have no idea what the fuck is being said because it is all over the place, but thanks to a few important pictures you can assemble it and make it work even though it is written in a different language. it just takes extra work to decipher that you shouldnt have to do.