Psionics: How the fuck does it work?

[Wiseman]

So I had an idea to make an erudite as a villain, but ran into the problem of hitting a complete language barrier against the psionic rules.

Can anyone simplify/translate the psionic rules so i can understand them.

Also, any optimization help for an 20th level erudite? I've heard there's some hilariously broken exploits for them, but I don't want anything that will kill the PC's outright.

[darkmaster]

To start with, if you're talking about the high level game you're running over on the RPPlace, the party ranger is entirely immune to everything a psion can do and also reflects it back at them. But I'll cut out now to keep myself in the dark.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I assume that you're doing 3.5E D&D psionics? As opposed to Pathfinder and 3.0E D&D psionics?

3.5E D&D psionics work much the same way as spells do; just mentally swap in the equivalent term whenever possible. However, there are so key differences.

1.) Psionics use psionic focuses a lot more for their game effects than spells. Basic psionics don't use them much, but expansion options like Quicken Power do. So if you're loading up on that stuff be sure not to trip on your own dick.

2.) Manifester levels are not one-for-one with caster levels. Manifester level for psionics by and large is a strict function of how many PP you put into them. This is both good and bad. It's bad because it's harder to make a low-level power level appropriate than a low-level spell. On the other hand, Psionic users can spam their best game effects more effectively. That fight in Order of the Stick between Vaarsuvius and the Psion was bullshit; Psions can spam their best effects better than Vancian spellcasters precisely because of that quirk in the rules.

3.) Psionics has a lot of Mind-Affecting stuff and they don't really have a good way to pierce through defenses against it. It's not enough so that a Protection from Evil/Mind Blank/True Seeing will have you telling a well-built Psion to get bent (unlike an Enchanter who doesn't build a thrall army), but if you're not careful you can have your arsenal shut down.

4.) While Vancian spellcasting as a gestalt is better than psionics, psionics is stronger pound-for-pound. Just going by the SRD, psionics have a bunch of crap that spellcasters would salivate over; the best parts of Shapechange 10 levels early, double power use in a turn, complete feat-writing on the fly (great for item creation crap), huge hit point shields, Time Stop 5 levels early, etc.. Unfortunately, psions are mostly a 'combat only' class who don't really get many flavorful powers other than crap that's broken on first principles or could be a 4E D&D power.

[Wiseman]

Thanks, and I had no idea pathfinder was even using psionics. Is it as bad as i assume it is?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, by 'even using' psionics we mean more Dreamscarred Press adapted psionics as a third party project. Paizo hasn't even begun to adapt psionics. So Pathfinder psionics is technically even less official than Truename crap in 3.5E D&D. Which means that trying to get a handle on its balance or power is kind of pointless, since any group that uses Pathfinder psionics has shown the will to use pretty much any third party product. It's like letting Relics and Rituals or Mongoose stuff into your game; once you do that power level comparisons for general concepts become meaningless.

If you ignore that -- which you might, because psionics falling down the memory hole was more of a victim of deceitful marketing than any real balance concern -- it depends what you mean by 'as bad'. Psionics were by and large adapted as-is (though it's by a third party rather than a second party) with all of the psionic classes getting huge amounts of spackle to patch over the empty levels. Which made them noticeably but not game-breakingly stronger. If you can get Pathfinder Psionics into your group, they're a really strong and probably superior alternative to magic as long as you don't really care about non-combat magic.

[ubernoob]

//

[TiaC]

Erudite is either Psion++ or a wilder who traded wild surge for the ability to repick powers known each day. Don't use it.

This is a list of all the horribly broken things that psionics can do. Many of these are on a level with Ice Assassin cheese, but you're the DM so have fun.

Of note is Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy which gives you an extra standard action for each power point you spend. There's also The Save Game Trick which allows you to rewind to a save point whenever you die.

However, there are also many tricks that are quite usable in a real game.

[shadzar]

ignore that it is psionics, and just call it immediate spells. that is how it always worked because any other way attempted NEVER worked.

my infamous githzerai monk in 3.x....the abilities were treated as spells.

[Archmage Joda]

Lago, on the subject of the Pathfinderized version of psionics, which discipline and/or archetype do you believe to be the best way to go for a Psion? Is it still Shaper?

[Username17]

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

The Erudite. It's like a rock.

-Username17

[Wiseman]

Thanks for all your help guys.

[RobG]

There is a feat in Pathfinder to make your Astral Construct last hrs/level.

If he gets into combat he only lasts rnds/level. He takes a -2 to attack and he gets one less slot A ability, but he also gets full BAB in Pathfinder.

The 7 power point version can fly and take the whole party. It might take Ant Haul for really big party

Psionic Blast IS augmentable in PF. Constructs still immune.

You could make a pretty good character just off those 2 powers.

[Cyberzombie]

There is a feat in Pathfinder to make your Astral Construct last hrs/level.

What feat is this?

[Orca]

There is a feat in Pathfinder to make your Astral Construct last hrs/level.

What feat is this?

Advanced Constructs - see the Utility option.

[NineInchNall]

First off, Erudite is retarded. Either you get 11 powers TOTAL per day at level 20 (in which case you pretty much have to Linked Power to Hustle on everything to get around it) or you have 11 unique powers per level, which is more powers than you have power points.

Well ... Wilders only ever get 11 unique powers per ever, so at least the Erudite's better than that.

[ubernoob]

//

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lago, on the subject of the Pathfinderized version of psionics, which discipline and/or archetype do you believe to be the best way to go for a Psion? Is it still Shaper?

Not really. Astral Constructs are decent, but they aren't that great. If you really want to summon/call critters, go spellcaster.

Really, I'd go Generalist psion. The extra bonus feats are very helpful.

[NineInchNall]

Plus however many they can grab via Psychic Chirurgery and/or expanded knowledge and/or alternative class features and/or feat leach and/or prestige classes. Don't get me wrong. Wilders suck compared to psions. But at least you actually have a consensus on what the class actually does.

That's true. Psychic chirurgery for the win! As far as I can tell, that's the best way to use the Erudite: via Thrallherd + thought bottle. Getting your Erudite thrall to chirurgery you knowledge of arcane spell-powers lets you be a spell-to-power Psion and not suck.

[TiaC]

Plus however many they can grab via Psychic Chirurgery and/or expanded knowledge and/or alternative class features and/or feat leach and/or prestige classes. Don't get me wrong. Wilders suck compared to psions. But at least you actually have a consensus on what the class actually does.

In pathfinder they just take PsyRef as a power known and starting at level 10 get to repick powers, feats, and skills for 10 minutes and 13PP.

Generalist does have some nice goodies, but much of the true power of psionics comes in discipline powers. Schism, Hustle, Flight, Metamorphosis(Although Psion is the worst class to use this), Fission...

[Lago PARANOIA]

Use the bonus feats to nick discipline powers.

That said, Egoist/Psychometabolist has enough goodies in the discipline power list that you can just go all-in.

[TiaC]

Use the bonus feats to nick discipline powers.

That said, Egoist/Psychometabolist has enough goodies in the discipline power list that you can just go all-in.

Yes, but you can't get anything from your highest level of powers that way.

I agree that Egoist is probably the best choice there. Shapers with maxxed Craft(Poison) can be scary in 3.5 though.