How to make Shadowrun less bad
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@OgreBattle:
Silly answer, yes, depending on what you mean by "revolver". Serious answer, at the things machine guns are good at, nope. If 100 guys are charging you from 300m away, an average dude with a Maxim is going to cut them to shreds. But someone only carrying a Colt Peacemaker should probably have to be, like, Roland Deschain with extensive cyberware on top...who'd still be better off with a machine gun in that situation.
@Frank:
A) Presumably in a hypothetical 5e-but-not-terrible game, "revolver specialist" would be something like "large dicepool in ranged weapons, pistol specialization, happens to carry a customized revolver" instead of actually being specialized only in revolvers, pistol skill, and useless with SMGs.
B) The gun behavior I'd like to see the game produce is something like Ronin for runners in civilization. DeNiro describes weapons as "a toolbox", and uses a wide variety (assault rifle, grenade launcher, antitank rocket, and LMG, other characters add the shotgun and sniper rifle), but other than the pistol, they're situational. None of them leave the immediate vicinity of the getaway car where they were hidden, and they don't stay in the car when they're not on the high-profile assault part of the mission.
The default weapon is the pistol because you can get them pretty easily, you can take it to many places, and it works fine killing people at the short ranges you find indoors. If you need heavier weapons for more firepower or range, that's fine, but it should probably mean adjusting the plan so you don't walk around in public with them and/or dealing with more heat. I have to figure Lone Star pays more attention to a runner team that uses grenade machine guns than one that uses silenced pistols, let alone Narcoject-loaded Super Squirts and tasers.
Silly answer, yes, depending on what you mean by "revolver". Serious answer, at the things machine guns are good at, nope. If 100 guys are charging you from 300m away, an average dude with a Maxim is going to cut them to shreds. But someone only carrying a Colt Peacemaker should probably have to be, like, Roland Deschain with extensive cyberware on top...who'd still be better off with a machine gun in that situation.
@Frank:
A) Presumably in a hypothetical 5e-but-not-terrible game, "revolver specialist" would be something like "large dicepool in ranged weapons, pistol specialization, happens to carry a customized revolver" instead of actually being specialized only in revolvers, pistol skill, and useless with SMGs.
B) The gun behavior I'd like to see the game produce is something like Ronin for runners in civilization. DeNiro describes weapons as "a toolbox", and uses a wide variety (assault rifle, grenade launcher, antitank rocket, and LMG, other characters add the shotgun and sniper rifle), but other than the pistol, they're situational. None of them leave the immediate vicinity of the getaway car where they were hidden, and they don't stay in the car when they're not on the high-profile assault part of the mission.
The default weapon is the pistol because you can get them pretty easily, you can take it to many places, and it works fine killing people at the short ranges you find indoors. If you need heavier weapons for more firepower or range, that's fine, but it should probably mean adjusting the plan so you don't walk around in public with them and/or dealing with more heat. I have to figure Lone Star pays more attention to a runner team that uses grenade machine guns than one that uses silenced pistols, let alone Narcoject-loaded Super Squirts and tasers.
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- Serious Badass
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He has longer pieces in a couple of places, though I cannot remember where for the time being. A better example is GingerbreadMan, who gets a whole section in CyberPirates where he rants about stealing military lasers, shooting down helicopters, jumping out of explosions, and fighting dragons while filming himself and sending dick pics to his defeated targets.Korwin wrote:What book or is he only an Shadowtalker?RelentlessImp wrote:You haven't been paying attention to Kane, then. This is literally his schtick - he is the Ubermensch, High-Level Prime Runner whose runs involve entire cities and mass explosions and sailing away on a yacht full of naked women. This archetype exists in at least one canon Shadowrun character.
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None! I literally just meant that the words "Now all we have to worry about is the minigun's ammo and recoil" hits me as funny in the same way that it'd be funny if someone were to say "And now we only have to worry about the mass of the elephant."Aryxbez wrote:I'm wondering what was to be conveyed by mentioning it, and what idea(s) would want conveyed into Shadowrun rules terms?
bears fall, everyone dies
- Stahlseele
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AMMO is a non problem.
60 bullet ammo belt means you get to shoot 4 times before needing to reload.
There's 6 shooter revolvers around, so it's not that much worse.
On a Vehicle/Drone you get a 250 or so ammo bin anyway but can't automagically reload either.
Seeing how Ammo does not have weight anymore since SR4, you can carry some belts in your backpack. If you carry the Minigun then THAT is the smallest of your problems.
The only REAL PROBLEM in terms of useability of a Minigun is the fucking bullshit insane Recoil . . if you have not a single point of recoil compensation, then that's 30 points of recoil! THIRTY! NOTHING HAS THAT MUCH!
HVAR do NOT count as HEAVY WEAPONS, so they DON'T get DOUBLED RECOIL!
60 bullet ammo belt means you get to shoot 4 times before needing to reload.
There's 6 shooter revolvers around, so it's not that much worse.
On a Vehicle/Drone you get a 250 or so ammo bin anyway but can't automagically reload either.
Seeing how Ammo does not have weight anymore since SR4, you can carry some belts in your backpack. If you carry the Minigun then THAT is the smallest of your problems.
The only REAL PROBLEM in terms of useability of a Minigun is the fucking bullshit insane Recoil . . if you have not a single point of recoil compensation, then that's 30 points of recoil! THIRTY! NOTHING HAS THAT MUCH!
HVAR do NOT count as HEAVY WEAPONS, so they DON'T get DOUBLED RECOIL!
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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'Korwin wrote:What book or is he only an Shadowtalker?RelentlessImp wrote:You haven't been paying attention to Kane, then. This is literally his schtick - he is the Ubermensch, High-Level Prime Runner whose runs involve entire cities and mass explosions and sailing away on a yacht full of naked women. This archetype exists in at least one canon Shadowrun character.
He has a write-up in Vice. No stats, but it's strongly suggested, via shadowtalk and that write-up, that he is on par with FastJack and Bull and all the other Prime Runners. I completely forgot about GingerbreadMan too, I need to get my earlier edition books back.
I think the vast majority of people complaining about 'tone' forget that Mirrorshades and Trenchcoats is not the only valid playstyle of Shadowrun, because Pink Mohawk exists, both as a style of play and as an in-world thing that happens. The setting's baseline suggests somewhere between the two.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He "might" have a statblock in "Street Legends Supplemental (p.14?)", a book my shadowrun group has, I'll check it out at some point if nobody else has. Also, his writeup is on page 166 in Vice, I found this bit:RelentlessImp wrote: He has a write-up in Vice. No stats
So, he's basically a Shadowrunner by the sounds of way he does things.Kane strikes fast, relying on unpredictability and surprise. His jobs often involve considerable advance planning, as he must take into account how the target thinks in order to maximize surprise. Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries
Last edited by Aryxbez on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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Well, yes. The point of this is there are shadowrunners who have all sorts of tactics. Kane's just happens to be the high-profile, explosive type - as evidenced by a little bit below where you quoted. Please stop half-quoting things.Aryxbez wrote:So, he's basically a Shadowrunner by the sounds of way he does things.Kane strikes fast, relying on unpredictability and surprise. His jobs often involve considerable advance planning, as he must take into account how the target thinks in order to maximize surprise. Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries
Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries; he may destroy the whole facility, or leave something behind that can keep security forces occupied while he slips away. He doesn’t mind leaving his crew behind, as they rarely have any information he doesn’t want Interpol to know.
- Stahlseele
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He is basically the Jack Sparrow Shadowrunner . .
Even if GingerBreadMan the Pirate might be a better fit.
Even if GingerBreadMan the Pirate might be a better fit.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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- Stahlseele
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It's a lie.
Barter Town is in Australia.
Barter Town is in Australia.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
- RadiantPhoenix
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Tunnels, maybe.
Bridges might have an awakened fish problem.
EDIT: Awakened is the term for when something has magi, right?
Bridges might have an awakened fish problem.
EDIT: Awakened is the term for when something has magi, right?
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Stahlseele
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hai.
and there's all kinds of awakened stuff.
animals, rocks, plants and sapients . . .
and there's all kinds of awakened stuff.
animals, rocks, plants and sapients . . .
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
- RadiantPhoenix
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I didn't realize "half-quoting" was a thing I do commonly, or known for? Nor did I realize it was something that...mattered at all. In fact, the quotes thereafter sound like my Shadowrun group. Though given I was mentioning something rather obvious, I felt to bring it up as it seemed nifty to mention (though I guess it sounded like I was giving it a negative connotation). I'm going to assume if he does have a statblock, it probably is going to make him suck, and thusly would hurt discussion to mention it here no?RelentlessImp wrote: Please stop half-quoting things.
There has been talk that Shadowrun needs to "abstract ammo" I believe? Not sure how many would be "for' that, though I do wonder how ye would go about it? Otherwise, don't think gonna get Miniguns that fire their actual 100's of round a second.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
In my group we typically pay for enough rounds to cover 50 passes of firing as fast as possible at the start of the game, and then ignore it from that point on. So for your typical Ares Alpha, you're looking at buying 500 rounds of ammo. For a mini gun, 750 rounds of ammo. For a SA weapon, 100 rounds. For a BF weapon, 300 rounds.There has been talk that Shadowrun needs to "abstract ammo" I believe? Not sure how many would be "for' that, though I do wonder how ye would go about it?
Probably not an ideal setup, and sitting down to actually update the system will almost certainly generate something better. But it is a fair enough starting point.
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Sorry, half-quoting to make a point (that is, quote what supports your argument, ignore the rest especially if it is in direct opposition to it) is just something that sticks in my craw (primarily because it's used by dishonest fucks), and I thought you were following along with the thread of "Shadowrun doesn't support high-octane action characters", which I was refuting. Didn't mean to come off as dickish.Aryxbez wrote:I didn't realize "half-quoting" was a thing I do commonly, or known for? Nor did I realize it was something that...mattered at all. In fact, the quotes thereafter sound like my Shadowrun group. Though given I was mentioning something rather obvious, I felt to bring it up as it seemed nifty to mention (though I guess it sounded like I was giving it a negative connotation). I'm going to assume if he does have a statblock, it probably is going to make him suck, and thusly would hurt discussion to mention it here no?RelentlessImp wrote: Please stop half-quoting things.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Oh Frag no, Street Samurai are my favorite Shadowrun Archtype (though I do like how flavorful magic can be), and like my favoring of warrior-types in general, I'm all for them getting an end-game path. So it's all good, and I understand well the dislike of arguing dishonestly, far as I know, I don't use half-quoting in that manner, nor have I done so.RelentlessImp wrote:and I thought you were following along with the thread of "Shadowrun doesn't support high-octane action characters", which I was refuting.
Any case, the Street legends Supplemental didn't have the statblock to Kane at all (despite being a book all about bunch of Shadowrun celebrity NPC's now with statblocks). Seems the other sources I checked on his wiki article don't either. I suppose it's probably for the best he doesn't, given how bad the designers probably are at making powerful characters (even when/if inserting custom content for the NPC's,like A vampire gets a foci that ADDS Essence). However, I did find this one quote in Ghost Cartels pg34 that adds to his importance:
Angered-Ares by... wrote:[Kane] I was house-sitting Damien Knight’s castle in the Thousand Islands when I set his favorite Persian rug on fire trying to get a wine stain out
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
- OgreBattle
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Just watched Robocop 1 again, what a great movie. It shows a nice divide between street weapons (pistols, SMG's, shotguns) that can't hurt robocop at all, some swat weapons (assault rifles) that can dink robocop if enough shoot at him, and then military assault cannons (some kind of grenade launcher) that can 1-shot a civilian car and 2-shot ED209.
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The Cobra Assault Cannon.
Which is what the PANTHER Assault Cannon in Shadowrun is modeled on.
And the COBRA Assault Cannon is modeled on the .50 BMG Sniper Rifle Barret.
Which is what the PANTHER Assault Cannon in Shadowrun is modeled on.
And the COBRA Assault Cannon is modeled on the .50 BMG Sniper Rifle Barret.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Correct ...Stahlseele wrote:The Cobra Assault Cannon.
Incorrect. The Panther Assault Cannon - despite its quite obvious "rip-off" name - optically is certainly not modeled on either Cobra Assault Cannon or the latter's real world counterpart. If anything the Panther looks like a crazy hybrid between a hand held grenade launcher like the M79 with a (a potentially non-functional) bullpup magazine (it's explictly mentioned as beltfed in the Street Samurai Catalog and IIRC in later publications as well) and a slim, fixed shoulder stock instead of the more conventional rifle stock like the one the M79 normally has. The picture of the Panther even includes some details that suggest that the heavy barrel has a joint that allows opening the Panther just like the M79.Stahlseele wrote:Which is what the PANTHER Assault Cannon in Shadowrun is modeled on.
Not quite correct either. The "COBRA Assault Cannon" was not modeled on/after the .50 Barret BMG Sniper Rifle. It actually was nothing but a 0.50 Barret Sniper Rifle with a slight recoloring and a very select few plastic addons (mainly the scopes) . Compared to what they did to the Barreta 93R to get Robo's "Auto 9" the changes were negligible.Stahlseele wrote:And the COBRA Assault Cannon is modeled on the .50 BMG Sniper Rifle Barret.
Last edited by Cochise on Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That is what "modeled on" means.Cochise wrote:Not quite correct either. The "COBRA Assault Cannon" was not modeled on/after the .50 Barret BMG Sniper Rifle. It actually was nothing but a 0.50 Barret Sniper Rifle with a slight recoloring and a very select few plastic addons (mainly the scopes) . Compared to what they did to the Barreta 93R to get Robo's "Auto 9" the changes were negligible.
I wish in the past I had tried more things 'cause now I know that being in trouble is a fake idea
Your mileage may vary there then, but to me things that are "modeled on something" are either built "as models" (or props) of an actual item or they represent some sort of distincitive evolution where important features of the original item serve as "model" to create something new (the "Auto 9" would fit that bill far better). Now the "Cobras" - at least as far as I can remember the background info concerning the making of Robocop were actually "the real deal": Repainted Barrets with fancy looking scopes. And in my book that doesn't quite count as being "modeled on".A Man In Black wrote:That is what "modeled on" means.