Shadowrun and Railroading: Why ?

[silva]

Not only that, Whip, but the WAY those missions are generated in Genesis Shadowrun are dinamic and dependant on what Mr. Johnson issued it (some are good with assassinations, others are more matrix-inclined, others are gang-based, etc), what your reputation is (since its the stat that controls which contacts, johnsons, nightclubs, etc you have access to), what your charisma and negotiation skill is (for bargaining prices of jobs), etc. Besides it, you´re dependent on the quality of gear and team of runners hired to do missions. All this spread between different disctricts of the city of Seattle, with different npcs and places to explore.

If its not a sandbox, I dont know what it is. (nor the wikipedia entry nor the tens of fans who posted at the comments session of the kickstart, nor the tens of articles about the game over the net).

P.S: in special, I find the matrix side of the game specially interesting, since it lets you explore the Matrix outside of missions, find valuable info, and sell it to "fencers" after the run. Really, its ingenius. And totally Shadowrun-apropriated.

[silva]

Ressurrecting this baby to propose a sandbox structure for Shadowrun. this is assuming a group with only the default game archetypes, no "outside-mission" ones (Rocker, Fixer, Media, Company Man, etc). Any advice or suggestions appreciated.



1. Establish the job-finding contacts. In general this will be Fixers, but sometimes could be different people.

2. "Color" the various job-finding contacts differently. E.g: one expert on criminal underworld jobs; another expert on gang/street jobs; another expert on matrix jobs; another expert on corp jobs, another on tribal jobs, another on socialite jobs, etc.

3. Each new month, roll for each Fixer using his best job-finding skill. Modify as appropriated. Make some want favors instead of cash (to feed step 6 below). On a success, a job is found. On a crit, two jobs are found (or a single one better paid). On a failure, nothing is found.

4. Make them pay lifestyle costs (taking in consideration eventual day-jobs, like that bodyguarding the sammy does on saturdays). If they cant pay, make them hungry or malnurished (apply modifiers as appropriated). Press them through their needs. The more desperate they get, the better step 6 below will be.

5. If any job is found, offer them to the group. Let them pick the one they prefer. Proceed with it as per the book. Roll for Johnson betrayal at the end - on a crit failture, group is betrayed.

6. If no job is found, develop characters individual agendas and issues (favors for contacts, rogue runs agains The Man, Stuffer Shack theft for food, robbing from Halloweeners to upgrade your GMC Bulldog, etc) or focus on needs from step 4. Base one or two sessions on these issues and track their outcomes or progress so you can use again in the future, perhaps spawning parallel campaigns in the process.

7. Loop.


OBS: having at least one random tables books like "Sprawl Sites" or "Mr Johson Black Book" is reccomended for the generation of the events, jobs, opposition, etc.

[Stahlseele]

So . . you propose to turn Shadowrun into something like an MMO and introduce grind to get stuff you need/want . .
Go suck on a barrel of Ghoul-Cock.

[silva]

Go suck on a barrel of Ghoul-Cock.

[silva]

I think ditching the whole nuyen thing and replacing it with a simpler "Street Cred" currency would be better for enforcing scarcity and making monthly rental really worrying. This way we could stablish more direct and simple association between incomes from jobs and living costs.

For example: if the player knows he will average 1 or 2 jobs a month, each job worths 1 Street Cred, and his lowlife rental costs 1 Cred, then he can have an idea before-hand of how many jobs he must get for the month before starving or getting low on ammo or having his Scorpion break from lack of maintenance.

Alternatively, one could generate a table of dayjobs related to its archetype (bodyguarding for Sammies, driving for riggers, deceased talking for shamans, etc) that could be worth 1 cred each, and could supplement the player economy in case no jobs show up for the month.

(if some in-game justification is needed for the ditching of nuyen, then just establish the following change to the default setting: SIN-less people cant use real money/nuyen )

[Stahlseele]

0.)
No. And fuck no!
The IDEA of a Reputation System in the Shadowrun Universe is stupid to begin with. If people know who you are because of what you did then you are doing it wrong and won't be doing it for a long time.

1.)
How and why would people knowing who you are get stuff that other people have to pay money for?
2.)
What happens when you leave your little corner of the sprawl and go somewhere where nobody there knows who you are?
3.)
The whole rest of the universe(in this case quite literally aside from some slum bartering) is doing business with money. Why would you throw away the entire universes economic system just like that or rather arbitrarily introduce a new one that depends on who knows what?
4.)
What happens when the people that know you(your street cred right there) die or move away or whatever else?

I had some more points about why this is a stupid idea that needs to be thrown into mount doom, but a nice relaxing soak in the tub made me forget about that.

Just one final question that does not fit into the numbering system i had up there so here:
a.)
What does this have to do with railroading in shadowrun at all?

[silva]

0.)
No. And fuck no!
The IDEA of a Reputation System in the Shadowrun Universe is stupid to begin with. If people know who you are because of what you did then you are doing it wrong and won't be doing it for a long time.

The activity of shadowrunning is a established economical activity like any other, forming a market with demand, supply, etc. In this case, good suppliers and good demanders are valued as in any other market. The fact its hidden from authorities and general public do not make it any less valid as a market. Thus, good runners will grow a reputation the same way a good professional in any other market would.

1.)
How and why would people knowing who you are get stuff that other people have to pay money for?

Sorry, didnt get this point. Could you clarify ?

2.)
What happens when you leave your little corner of the sprawl and go somewhere where nobody there knows who you are?

You start anew. Perhaps having under-valued jobs and offers until you stablish your reputation in this new area ?

3.)
The whole rest of the universe(in this case quite literally aside from some slum bartering) is doing business with money. Why would you throw away the entire universes economic system just like that or rather arbitrarily introduce a new one that depends on who knows what?

Well, because its harder to promote the kind of thing I showed above in the default system. I.e: in my system, you could estipulate that 1 cred buys you 1 month of food. With that in mind, you know that if you dont find a job for the month, youll get hungry and/or debilitated by the end of the month. While in the default game system, you dont have any parameter for that (how does a typical run pays ? how that balances with monthly costs ? ) or the parameters are buried in a complex web of costs (a meal costs 20Y ? and a gun, 150Y ? and the ammo ? but for what type of weapon? etc). My proposed system simplifies it so it makes decisions very simple to take, instead of making it a mathematical inequation of the 5th degree.

A clear advantage of this system is: the player can simply refuse any jobs the GM brings - since its just a matter of checking how his Credit pool is - and embarking on his own agendas, or simply checking out other fixers/sources of jobs. It helps to promote sandbox gameplay - if it was a hexcrawl, each job or agenda is a direction that you could take.

Just one final question that does not fit into the numbering system i had up there so here:
a.)
What does this have to do with railroading in shadowrun at all?

The proposed structure helps to promote a sandbox style focused on simulating the dirty life of runners trying to survive in the sprawl. Its like a hexcrawl sandbox really, only socio-economic instead of geographic. Instead of exploring hexes for treasure, you do gigs for food and ammo.

Contrast that to the "GM run of the week!" gaming style advocated in the books, where the GM brings his pre-created story for the players every session, and you will see the difference.

[Stahlseele]

How and why does people knowing who you are and what you do get you stuff that other people have to pay money for? < = i am not sure how to make this any clearer . . might be because i am german and english is not my native tongue . .

Why would you start anew with NOTHING if you are a 0,01 Essence Monster?
That's something akin to a (keep in mind, i never actually played any D20 game) DnD Character of level 20 going back to killing level 1 enemies for food and board . . If you go somewhere else, you take your valuables with you so you have ressources and don't run the risk of starving or having to sleep outside somewhere. That's the whole POINT of having ressources available.

Lifestyle has a fixed cost in SR. Untill SR5s fucked up rules and even more so the errata for these rules, Lifestyle included all the minutia that nobody wants to keep track of. Rent. Food. Electricity/Water-Bills. Fuel for vehicles to a certain extent. Clothes, hygiene products. Getting a haircut. Renting a movie or stuff like that. All that is included in a monthly rate that's depending on what kind of lifestyle you want to have.
Gear, so stuff you actually use for doing crimes like guns and ammo and tools for the trade other than that always were done separately. Well, until SR5 where it says that Trolls pay double for equipment which would include cyber and bio and vehicles and stuff like that . . which then got an errata that says that trolls pay 150% for lifestyle which includes gear like explicitly mentioned cyber and bioware because fuck doing propper errata right?
If you have some money left over, let us just say you have on your unnamed credstick that you use to pay your slumlord rent under the hand about 20k nuyen left(reasonable. kinda) and your lifestyle costs you 2000 nuyen per month, then you can go almost a year without doing any runs. which is how deckers and magicians do their downtime stuff, because otherwise nothing of the sort would ever get done, because that can take days or weeks to do sometimes . .
I have had characters do exactly that when a johnson that gave them bad intel before offered too little for a job with not the right kind of intel to make sure the cost/risk does not spiral out of the money being offered.

i still see no benefit in getting rid of and replacing FOR THE PLAYER CHARACTERS ONLY the known economic system and replacing it with something that is so completely MTP arbitrary bullshit as ONE REPUTATION POINT FOR ONE MONTH OF LIFESTYLE!
Because, obviously, people forget who you are month later and suddenly you are out of shelter because you have not made the news recently . .

[Whipstitch]

What Stahl said. Tying lifestyle to a metagame currency is begging for weird disconnects unless you link that metagame currency to the value of the shit you've managed to acquire recently, which rather defeats the purpose of ditching nuyen to begin with. Plus, being super dickish about your players amassing phat lewts and attempting to retire early sounds like Mr. Conductor behavior to begin with.

[silva]

Ok, supposing we dont mess with the currency aspect. What do you think of the remaning structure (transcribed below) having a sandbox gaming style in mind ?

1. Establish the job-finding contacts. In general this will be Fixers, but sometimes could be different people.

2. "Color" the various job-finding contacts differently. E.g: one expert on criminal underworld jobs; another expert on gang/street jobs; another expert on matrix jobs; another expert on corp jobs, another on tribal jobs, another on socialite jobs, etc.

3. Each new month, roll for each Fixer using his best job-finding skill. Modify as appropriated. Make some want favors instead of cash (to feed step 6 below). On a success, a job is found. On a crit, two jobs are found (or a single one better paid). On a failure, nothing is found.

4. Make them pay lifestyle costs (taking in consideration eventual day-jobs, like that bodyguarding the sammy does on saturdays). If they cant pay, make them hungry or malnurished (apply modifiers as appropriated). Press them through their needs. The more desperate they get, the better step 6 below will be.

5. If any job is found, offer them to the group. Let them pick the one they prefer. Proceed with it as per the book. Roll for Johnson betrayal at the end - on a crit failture, group is betrayed.

6. If no job is found, develop characters individual agendas and issues (favors for contacts, rogue runs agains The Man, Stuffer Shack theft for food, robbing from Halloweeners to upgrade your GMC Bulldog, etc) or focus on needs from step 4. Base one or two sessions on these issues and track their outcomes or progress so you can use again in the future, perhaps spawning parallel campaigns in the process.

7. Loop.


OBS: having at least one random tables books like "Sprawl Sites" or "Mr Johson Black Book" is reccomended for the generation of the events, jobs, opposition, etc.

[Stahlseele]

1-3 yes, this is gernally how it should be anyway.
4. this is exactly as per the rules. but with money set aside. as long as you have some cash on the sly or a way to get money without running, then you can have your lifestyle no problem . . i don't see no change in here?
5. pretty much as is the norm in shadowrun anyway, without the rolling for betrayal. That's expected/choice of the GM.
6. yes this is also pretty much how shadowrun works. how long has it been since you last looked at the game?
7. see above, more of the same.

OBS: the blackbook and sprawl sites should be used by the GM for ideas anyway.
Somebody actually made a randumb run generator using that system, but it's in german only.

[silva]

this is also pretty much how shadowrun works. how long has it been since you last looked at the game?

Are you kidding, Stahl ?

The only thing all the books ever advised is for the GM to bring its railroadish "run of the week" for the group to play through. There is not any advice of the kind I just gave above, much less cleanly structured like that. Go back to the very first post of this thread and yu will see the actual "advice" from the book.

[Stahlseele]

Well, then the GM / Players are obviously not creative enough . .
I have lost count of how often we managed to derail a session from the beginning by simply not agreeing with a jobs terms and going out to do our own stuff that we felt was important to our characters. The GM did not really expect it, but he rolled with the punches and made it interesting.
Hell, even if the characters do the offered run, it's more often than not that they do it in a way that makes the GM shake his head in disbelief.

[Blicero]

Are you kidding, Stahl ?

The only thing all the books ever advised is for the GM to bring its railroadish "run of the week" for the group to play through. There is not any advice of the kind I just gave above, much less cleanly structured like that. Go back to the very first post of this thread and yu will see the actual "advice" from the book.

silva, you still can't read. And you continue to think that the advice offered in SR5 is the same advice offered in every edition of Shadowrun. This is not true.

[silva]

So please Blicero, go ahead and cite the pages where the books provide advice or structures for running a sandbox game. Dont need to quote pages, just cite their numbers. Ive got all Shadowrun editions from 2nd to 5th right here in my shelf.

[Blicero]

silva, I never said that previous editions of SR told you to sandbox. They might, they might not. I've never read any SR book before 4E. But if you look at the GM advice section for SR4, tells you do to things like write adventures that the players want to participate in, and to write adventures that the characters want to do, and to let your plans be adapted and changed by what comes up during the game. Those are probably not instructions on how to create a sandbox. But they're certainly not telling GMs to railroad. Unless you're doing the thing you do where words mean exactly what you want them to mean. Which I guess is possible.

[Whipstitch]

The thing with sandboxing is that it's a dumb thing to write about for the most part because it is either near impossible or incredibly easy depending on how self-motivated the players are.

[Cyberzombie]

Shadowrun is a railroad in that you're basically forced to do the mission the GM created. That's true of any rules heavy game because the GM has to prepare defenses for the places in question, in Shadowrun's case 3 levels: Magic, matrix and physical. That's a ton of work, and it's just not possible to offer a true sandbox experience when you need to calculate all that crap.

Though the actual flow of the mission (at least ideally) is in your hands. You could try to talk your way in, you could try to infiltrate, or you could go in guns blazing.

[silva]

silva, I never said that previous editions of SR told you to sandbox. They might, they might not. I've never read any SR book before 4E. But if you look at the GM advice section for SR4, tells you do to things like write adventures that the players want to participate in, and to write adventures that the characters want to do, and to let your plans be adapted and changed by what comes up during the game. Those are probably not instructions on how to create a sandbox. But they're certainly not telling GMs to railroad.

Shadowrun 4th advice is the same as all previous editions (in fact, I would say they "copy and pasted" most of it straight from 3rd edition ), and yes they cite it but dont provide any solid or structured advice on what to do if the players dont want to run the GM run of the week. So you have (somewhat) solid advice on how to run a railroad, but if you dont want to run a railroad the book says "ok, then just bull around with them for a session". Come on.

( though to be honest, this lack of a explicit structure of play is a symptom of old/traditional rpgs in general and far from exclusive to Shadowrun. "Here take this bunch of rules for combat and chasing and healing and improvement... what you do with those is your problem". )

The thing with sandboxing is that it's a dumb thing to write about for the most part because it is either near impossible or incredibly easy depending on how self-motivated the players are.

The same can be said for railroading, no ?

"The thing with railroading is that its a dumb thing to write about for the most part because it is either near impossible or incredibly easy depending on how passive the players are".

[Blicero]

Shadowrun 4th advice is the same as all previous editions (in fact, I would say they "copy and pasted" most of it straight from 3rd edition ), and yes they cite it but dont provide any solid or structured advice on what to do if the players dont want to run the GM run of the week. So you have (somewhat) solid advice on how to run a railroad, but if you dont want to run a railroad the book says "ok, then just bull around with them for a session". Come on.

Fuck you silva. Please learn how to read. When you've done that, please read through any of the six dozen threads you've started about what railroading is. When you've done that, please come back here so we can agree that SR4 doesn't instruct its GMs to design railroad campaigns.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Blicero, maybe you missed silva's outing as a liar and a troll? Just ignore his ass.

[Whipstitch]

Silva, again, you are an idiot. The whole point of railroading people is so that the shit you prepped in advance is guaranteed to happen short of a revolt. People write railroad adventures because it is actually possible to write a railroad adventure. By contrast, writing up a sandbox leaves you with something virtually indistinguishable from a setting book, since anything more specific than that isn't going to survive first contact with the players. And shadowrun has a fuckton of setting books.

[silva]

A setting book is a setting book.

If you don’t present the reader solid advice on how structuring a sandbox game, sorry, you don’t have nothing.

Read Griffin Mountain if you want an example.

[JesterZero]

Silva, there is no possible way you can be that disingenuous accidentally.

Go away troll.

[silva]

Silva, there is no possible way you can be that disingenuous accidentally.

Saying a setting book is enough for sandbox gaming, is like saying a piece of fiction is enough for a railroad. Neither is a game. And a game must be clear about how its supposed to be played.