Questions on Samurai and Maho (Tsukai)

[Drolyt]

I've had this idea for an RPG based on Japanese and Chinese mythology and history for a while now. My plan is for a fairly low level of magic but with everyone (at least PC classes) doing supernatural things. It is easy to come up with fantastic abilities for youxia and ninja (for example) but I'm trying to come up with class features for samurai. Does anyone know of a reference for abilities attributed to samurai? I can think of a few off the top of my head like knocking arrows aside with your sword or stopping a blade with your bare hands but I need more ideas for it to be a full class.

The other thing I'm wondering about is if anyone has information on traditional Chinese or Japanese magical beliefs. I'm somewhat familiar with Onmyodo but I don't know anything about Chinese magic and I'm pretty sure Wu Jen is a term invented by Gygax. I've heard the Japanese term Maho as a word for sorcery/witchcraft but I can't find any information on it.

[Dogbert]

AFAIK, contrary to occidental magic, oriental mysticism is more of an "integral education" as it trains both body and mind.

Other than the Kuji Kiri (not to be confused with the Kuji In), however, my knowledge of specific types of oriental magic is nill.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Does anyone know of a reference for abilities attributed to samurai?

Well, I could ask Grandma. She's so traditional Japanese that she learned naginata in high school. But Lone Wolf and Cub would be my first source for semi-crazy samurai abilities.

The other thing I'm wondering about is if anyone has information on traditional Chinese or Japanese magical beliefs.

The other big Japanese one is Shinto, which is an animistic religion. The priests commune with the spirits that inhabit... everything, mostly to make them stop being angry. But it's one of those power sources that can theoretically do a whole lot of things, because it basically has influence over all matter, and also some wholly spiritual things like ancestor ghosts.

You might want to look at Weapons of the Gods or Legends of the Wulin for an interesting take on Chinese-style magic.

[Username17]

Honestly: watch a bunch of anime. I am not kidding. Anime is, pretty much by definition, what actual Japanese fantasy stories are like. Because they are fantasy stories and made by real Japanese people. So watch a bunch of Inu Yasha, Ronin Warriors, Sengoku Basara, and Rurouni Kenshin, and that will tell you what magic powers Samurai are supposed to have.

It actually is that easy.

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

There's already tons of anime and manga with oriental fantasy settings to check out too, and they're as authentic as you can get 'cause it's made by people intimately familiar with their own culture's history and legends.

I've had this idea for an RPG based on Japanese and Chinese mythology and history for a while now. My plan is for a fairly low level of magic but with everyone (at least PC classes) doing supernatural things. It is easy to come up with fantastic abilities for youxia and ninja (for example) but I'm trying to come up with class features for samurai. Does anyone know of a reference for abilities attributed to samurai?

Your Samurai class can also cover Romance of the 3 Kingdoms type heroes. So you have powers like...
Yoshitsune: Can jump off of air
Benkei: Will not die even if killed
Zhang Fei: Roar causes fear
Lots of different R3K dudes: swing around 50kg weapons with no trouble

The other thing I'm wondering about is if anyone has information on traditional Chinese or Japanese magical beliefs. I'm somewhat familiar with Onmyodo but I don't know anything about Chinese magic and I'm pretty sure Wu Jen is a term invented by Gygax. I've heard the Japanese term Maho as a word for sorcery/witchcraft but I can't find any information on it.

Organ transplants and potion brewing are things that happen in Chinese classic novels, usually associated with Taoists seeking immortality. The classic romance/porn novel 'Carnal Prayer mat' has the protagonist install a dog kidney in his penis to make it 'stronger'. So you could have a whole class devoted to installing monster parts and quaffing potions for mightiness.

Journey to the West also has tons of shapeshifting powers. Monkey King learned his technique from a Daoist sage but it seems like most deities are able to do it. So a dedicated shapeshifter (animal and objects, even a building) class or subclass is also good to have.

For visual flavor, Chinese fantasy magic users tend to use straight double edged swords and some throw spell tags at stuff.

And if you can find them, you can check out this recent Journey to the West movie directed by Stephen Chow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to ... the_Demons

It's got a lot of bizarre magic in it.

[Maxus]

Haven't watched the others but from Kenshin:

-Super-speed/mobility
-Overwhelming people with their chi/fighting spirit to paralyze them or, in one case, psyche themselves up
-Super-hearing on a blind fighter, who could basically echolocate without pinging, and could incidentally tell when someone was lying and their general emotions.
-Guy who punches/kicks/headbutts/stabs stuff so hard it disintegrates
-Vacuum-wave cuts

That's off the the top of my head

[OgreBattle]

Here's a Wuxia TV show you can check out if you haven't already seen it:
Demigods & Semidevils (a strange translation of "Devas & Asuras"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8xjZU ... wSMAUhYV72


It's a Wuxia novel from the 60's. Can read its synposis for ideas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-Gods_and_Semi-Devils

In wuxia settings though, everyonw whose a strong fighter winds up flying through the air and destroying rocks with force waves. So what benefit do you get from making samurai its own class?

[Red_Rob]

[Mask_De_H]

On the Chinese side of things, you have divination via trigrams and all sorts of crazy Taoist alchemy. Also raising the dead with spell tags.

If you want the samurai to be separate from the youxia, I would either focus on the sword being the soul of the samurai or run with the horse archer idea.

[Drolyt]

Honestly: watch a bunch of anime. I am not kidding. Anime is, pretty much by definition, what actual Japanese fantasy stories are like. Because they are fantasy stories and made by real Japanese people. So watch a bunch of Inu Yasha, Ronin Warriors, Sengoku Basara, and Rurouni Kenshin, and that will tell you what magic powers Samurai are supposed to have.

It actually is that easy.

-Username17

This turned out to be good advice, I was overthinking certain things. I've got some good ideas now.

And if you can find them, you can check out this recent Journey to the West movie directed by Stephen Chow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to ... the_Demons

It's got a lot of bizarre magic in it.

This was awesome, thank you.

In wuxia settings though, everyonw whose a strong fighter winds up flying through the air and destroying rocks with force waves. So what benefit do you get from making samurai its own class?

Well, the concept is sort of sengoku-jidai with wuxia elements mixed in. Samurai will be the class of the warrior nobility, while another class (maybe called youxia?) would cover peasant heroes and the like. There might also be a seperate class for warrior monks (maybe called sohei). Then at the very least there will be a ninja class and two classes for magic users, one of which practices state sponsored magic focused on divination and spirits (onmyodo) and the other practising a sort of witchcraft (maho?). Finally there would be classes for supernatural creatures. Basically in this conception a class isn't just a set of related abilities, it is a defining element of your character, so samurai and youxia are seperate classes because they represent very different character archetypes even if they both swing swords.

As for flying unaided and destroying rocks with the force, that will be high level stuff. I intend for there to be a range of gameplay where defending farmers from bandits is a reasonable adventure.

If you want the samurai to be separate from the youxia, I would either focus on the sword being the soul of the samurai or run with the horse archer idea.

I'm thinking I'll do both these things.

[darkmaster]

Well from a much less factual, knowlegy stand point. Powers I assign to samurai (and, in fact, to just about any non-magical-but-super-natural-warrior).

Preternatural awareness of surroundings and enemy movements bordering on battle precognition: 360 degree vision able to react instantly to any attack
Super speed and strength: I mean obviously you have to be able to cut through boulders with a single swing right?
Wuxia style jumping
Supernatural reflexes
Enhanced vision: Who needs a spyglass?
Sword beams

Everything after that is more or less optional and depends on the setting.

[Grek]

Well, the concept is sort of sengoku-jidai with wuxia elements mixed in. Samurai will be the class of the warrior nobility, while another class (maybe called youxia?) would cover peasant heroes and the like. There might also be a seperate class for warrior monks (maybe called sohei). Then at the very least there will be a ninja class and two classes for magic users, one of which practices state sponsored magic focused on divination and spirits (onmyodo) and the other practising a sort of witchcraft (maho?). Finally there would be classes for supernatural creatures. Basically in this conception a class isn't just a set of related abilities, it is a defining element of your character, so samurai and youxia are seperate classes because they represent very different character archetypes even if they both swing swords.

Peasant heroes are low level ninjas. That's what a Ninja is: an anonymous someone from outside the ruling castes who goes around killing powerful people using stealth and dishonorable peasant tactics. High level ninja form elite ninja academies and train to be better killers, but the low level character who knifes the tax collector in order to save his family from starvation is just a low level ninja.

[kzt]

No, traditionally Ninja are not peasants, they are Eta. Outcasts. Peasants/farmers and merchants are the Heimin class. So were the ashigaru, the foot soldiers. It also depends on how you want to set the game. Until Toyotomi Hideyoshi ruled Japan there was significant possibility of social mobility. Farmers were drafted into the various armies, etc and could find success that way. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was orignally an ashigaru before he ended up ruling Japan, but he managed to lock the social structure for the next few centuries.

[OgreBattle]

Here's Duel to the Death, a 1983 Kungfu movie about a Wuxia vs a Samurai, and the clan of ninjas who try to kill both of them.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084924/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68wa2DLVmow

If you don't have time for the entire movie though here's a single fight scene showing Wuxia vs Ninjas vs Samurai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur68dWV ... redirect=1
You can see the Wuxia using his athleticism to fly around, the Samurai is not as agile but is relentless, and the ninjas use dirty ninja tricks


Final Fantasy XI has Monk, Samurai, and Ninja as separate classes. Here's how they differentiate the 3 with unique game mechanics.

Samurai
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Uses two handed swords, bow, polearms
Focuses on building up meter to deliver powerful combos (these combos can deal elemental damage and inflict status effects like paralyze, silence, etc.)
Has bonus vs demons (All of the 'knights' have a bonus: The Paladin has bonus vs undead, Dark Knight has bonus vs arcane constructs/chimera, Dragoon has bonus vs Dragons)
Ultimate move is charging up meter instantly.
Defense is supplemented by '3rd eye', anticipating an opponent's attack and dodging.
Attack is supplemented by "Zanshin", being able to instantly attack after missing.


Monk
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Monk
Uses fist weapons and staffs
Can charge up to shoot fireballs or deliver one powerful blow.
Ultimate move is '100 fists' rapid fire attack for a few seconds.
Defense is supplemented by a ton of hitpoints
Attack is supplemented by counterattacks that activate when attacked, and extra kicking attacks

Ninja
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ninja
Uses daggers, katana, claws, shuriken, guns
Dual wields for rapid attacks
Ultimate move is EXPLODING for massive damage, KO'ing one's self.
Ninjutsu is like low level Black Magic that doesn't use magic points, consuming tools instead (so a blind spell consumes powder, and so on)
Defense is supplemented by shadow-image ninjutsu
Attack is supplemented by dual wielding fast attacks and elemental attack ninjutsu, shadow images can be consumed to make attacks (such as throwing shuriken)

[TheNotoriousAMP]

I'd go for more of an adept style flavor to the samurai. They don't really fly though the air and such (most Anime is based on post 1600's Japanese myths and the like), but they have ludicrous self control and toughness. So basically self buffing and hyper aware. Also, THEY DO NOT USE KATANAS AS THEIR PRIMARY WEAPON.

Let me repeat this.

DO NOT MAKE THE KATANA SUPER SPIRITUAL.

The Katana as a religious weapon comes in the Tokugawa shogunate era, when Samurai are banned from trading or doing anything useful, yet have no one to fight. So basically they become lazy shits writing about how cool they used to be.

A good Samurai feat would emphasize their very pragmatic approach to weapons. Especially guns, the Samurai loved firearms. Mounted archery, archery, naginata, spears and guns should be your focus, as well as the buffing of such. So maybe have Samurai magic be a lot like River Tam in Serenity. If it can kill people and they can get their hands on it, they can use some of their focus to get the most out of it. Definitely use the whirlwind too, and maybe add some psychological magic with their creepy cool masks and shit.

Also, I cannot emphasize how important Buddhism was to many Samurai, so I'd include meditation and the like. And not the fun Buddhism either, for both Ninja as well as Samurai, Buddhism was a lot like fundamentalist Islam is today. As for the animist side of things, both China and Japan have a somewhat lighter version of the Roman or Greek deity system. There's a war God and all, but its a lot more like its a sentient idea, rather than a true personality. Less Ares and more catholic patron saint ish, if that makes sense.

If you really want to get a good look at a medieval Chinese approach to myths and religion, take a look at the excellent Judge Dee series of novels by Robert van Gulik. You'll get a great idea of what life was like back in the Tang period and the characters are great fodder for NPC's.

[Stahlseele]

She's so traditional Japanese that she learned naginata in high school

Are you sure? O.o
Naginata? Really?
Isn't that a Pole-Arm Infantry Versus Cavalry Weapon?
If so, that's one badass Grandma you have there o.O

[TheNotoriousAMP]

She's so traditional Japanese that she learned naginata in high school

Are you sure? O.o
Naginata? Really?
Isn't that a Pole-Arm Infantry Versus Cavalry Weapon?
If so, that's one badass Grandma you have there o.O

Funnily enough, the naginata is actually considered a woman's weapon in Japan. The added reach allows people to compensate for short height and lesser upper body strength. Samurai class women were almost always taught how to use one to defend their home and a usual dowry for a samurai woman included one. Since the 1900's, with the rise in public education, especially during the uber miliary period of the 30's and 40's, Naginata is a really common part of female physical education.

[darkmaster]

I'd go for more of an adept style flavor to the samurai. They don't really fly though the air and such (most Anime is based on post 1600's Japanese myths and the like), but they have ludicrous self control and toughness. So basically self buffing and hyper aware. Also, THEY DO NOT USE KATANAS AS THEIR PRIMARY WEAPON.

Let me repeat this.

DO NOT MAKE THE KATANA SUPER SPIRITUAL.

Do not listen to this advice, this advice wants to you to try and make things more realistic. Reality is frustrating and unintuitive. You do not want really for reals feudal Japan you want Samurai Warriors where peasant conscripts get bows or if they're really lucky early rifles that occasionally explode in their hands.

[Stahlseele]

She's so traditional Japanese that she learned naginata in high school

Are you sure? O.o
Naginata? Really?
Isn't that a Pole-Arm Infantry Versus Cavalry Weapon?
If so, that's one badass Grandma you have there o.O

Funnily enough, the naginata is actually considered a woman's weapon in Japan. The added reach allows people to compensate for short height and lesser upper body strength. Samurai class women were almost always taught how to use one to defend their home and a usual dowry for a samurai woman included one. Since the 1900's, with the rise in public education, especially during the uber miliary period of the 30's and 40's, Naginata is a really common part of female physical education.

no, i actually did not know that, thank you very much ^^

[OgreBattle]

She's so traditional Japanese that she learned naginata in high school

Are you sure? O.o
Naginata? Really?
Isn't that a Pole-Arm Infantry Versus Cavalry Weapon?
If so, that's one badass Grandma you have there o.O

I've met Japanese girls who were in Naginata club in high school, it's not as obscure as swordfighting is in the US.

Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZN4ScARN58


Guys do it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwSIcUdSREo

[TheNotoriousAMP]

Do not listen to this advice, this advice wants to you to try and make things more realistic. Reality is frustrating and unintuitive. You do not want really for reals feudal Japan you want Samurai Warriors where peasant conscripts get bows or if they're really lucky early rifles that occasionally explode in their hands.

I don't necessarily want realistic as in mud and guts, what I was pointing too is less ruroni kenshin and more medieval cable/deathstroke. Fantasy Samurai should be brightly armored badasses with magic face masks that terrify their foes and an innate spiritual ability to sense almost everything and hit the battlefield like a whirlwind picking up weapons as is and using them like they were born in the cradle with them. Ruroni Kenshin is over done and kinda boring, gun mage twirling a naginata like a whirlwind and stopping arrows is not.

[darkmaster]

No, they shouldn't because, that is not what actual fantasy samurai are like. You can argue that's what fantasy Samurai should be but actual Japanese people will think you're weird for it in the same way westerners would think you're weird if you said the archetypal knight should be a morally ambiguous psychopath who goes around butchering peasants out of boredom.

You might personally think it's cliche, but things become cliche because they're good and fucking with people's archetypes is usually a recipe for disaster especially when you want that archetype to resonate with people on a personal level so they personally enjoy walking in its skin.

So you really really do want kenshin or Mitsuhide from Samurai warriors.

[OgreBattle]

but actual Japanese people will think you're weird for it in the same way westerners would think you're weird if you said the archetypal knight should be a morally ambiguous psychopath who goes around butchering peasants out of boredom.

I've heard the opposite from some Japanese though, that Americans generally view samurai in a romanticized notion while in Japan they have plenty of stories of samurai assholes who kill people for petty reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_L ... d_Is_Drawn
This is a movie told through the PoV of an asshole "I kill people for pissing me off" samurai. You get to watch him kill people who just piss him off, he is an asshole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Samurai
The protagonist is a good hearted guy, but it does mention how there's lots of asshole samurai going around killing anyone they bump into too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara-Kiri: ... _a_Samurai
This is about the whole samurai system being full of assholes who shit all over everyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_Assassins
This is about how most samurai will work for a brutal evil asshole 'just because it's the way things are', the protagonist is the protagonist because he thinks otherwise.

In Princess Mononoke, the Samurai are side characters mostly seen pillaging farmers.


Not to say they you don't have your Kenshins and Ronin Warriors too, but the idea of "portray Samurai in a gritty/negative light" isn't foreign either. They also fit into the Kenshin story as the assholes you can kill without too much remorse.

[Laertes]

Hi there. Long-time L5R GM here, from back when it was still good.

I'd recommend primary sources as being the best way to learn about how a culture actually saw itself. Your players don't want to be foreigners simply watching their Rokugani (or analogue) characters be exotic; they want to be those characters, living in a world where everything they're doing seems utterly natural. This is largely the reason why White Wolf's Kindred of the East fails, because it can never get past the superficial exoticism of it.

So here's some actual samurai documents:

The Life Giving Sword is a manual of swordsmanship that treats it as a holographic thing. Victory in a fight isn't a matter of being stronger or faster; it's about being a better human than your enemy, and if you've got that sorted then you can win with any weapon. This is how samurai-types should genuinely see the world, and especially how they should see violence: as a test to see which of the combatants is a superior person. The arrogance and fatalism that this mindset brings, and the dedication to self-betterment that flows through it at every level, is absolutely central to the theme that you want to immerse your players in.

The Unfettered Mind and The Book of Five Rings are really very dense indeed and make little sense unless you're thoroughly immersed in the Shinto-Buddhist mindset. However, they are ridiculously quotable, and get twice as good once you realise what they are: books by a pair of contemporary masters who *hated* each other and so wrote these texts as put downs to one another. Mohammed Ali thought he was good at talking smack, but he never even considered writing a philosophy treatise as a means of doing it.

Hagakure is probably more responsible for building up the samurai myth than any other text. The thing to remember when you read Hagakure is that it isn't actually describing people as they ever lived: it's consciously mythologising the recent past and urging people to live up to that mythology rather than assimilating into a world which no longer needs their old ways. In that way it's the equivalent to the early Westerns of American cinema or the medieval chivalric romances. As such, when it comes to laying out the basic tropes of what samurai are in the stories rather than who they were in real life, this is the source you have to go to.

[darkmaster]

When the Last Sword is Drawn is specifically about members of the Shinsengumi who were the Japanese equivalent of the gestapo set to "protect" the peace by murdering dissidents, anyone who might be dissidents, and people who had been seen having conversations with dissidents.

I can't speak at length about the second two movies, but 13 assassins is a romanization of more or less historical events that need to craft an unambiguous villain.

In Princess Mononoke the Samurai are at war and when you are at war you pillage your enemy's land because, as The Art of War points out, that is the smart choice that doesn't cripple your economy.

But the hero's aren't those people, you will almost always have hero's be the white hats.

As for your assertion about Kenshin, go watch that show again you have failed you detect super obvious context check.