[Pathfinder] Magic items to change [s]the world[/s] a town.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:39 pm

So I'm in the Pathfinder game that will be starting up soon (maybe. eventually.) and I'm making a crafting wizard because I want to, and I'm trying to figure out ways that I can improve peoples' standards of living. The MC is kinda lax in some place and unusually strict in others, probably as a result of being new, but I expect custom magic items will be allowed per the pricing table as long as I don't push it, and that WBL will probably be largely ignored (again, as long as I don't push it). I also don't expect vicious efreet-style responses where giving a town a magic item means they all get murdered horribly by someone who wants it.

So if the game manages to get to level 3 (no game of D&D I have ever played in my life has managed this so I'm not actually expecting it, so this is largely a thought experiment because I like the character concept), what are some Wondrous Items I can start making to improve the lives of those around me? The availability of custom items means that stuff from 3.5 is probably accessible even though 3.5 content technically isn't, as long as the spell it's based on made its way into PF without significant change. I also have both a Cleric and a Druid in the party, so spell access is pretty good (but in PF, on wondrous items you can bypass that with a +5 DC so it's not a big deal).

I know Animate Objects can be made permanent and has lots of uses in this regard, but that's up at CL 14. On the other hand, I'll probably end up taking Craft Construct at 5, so the same basic ideas are there. At 3 I've thought of simple things like the Decanter of Endless Water, which could be really useful even just in the standard "make clean water" sense. I was also thinking of doing something similar with the Create Food and Water spell to make a breadbox that has a loaf of fresh bread in it every time it's opened, or some item based on Goodberry (which would be really valuable to peasants even though it's not so great for adventurers, so it's a great use of a l1 spell). I could do something like use Produce Flame or Heat Metal to enchant a forge.

What other sorts of things would be fairly simple but have a major effect on the people around me?

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:18 pm

Making magic items fairly large can diminish the desire to steal them as well.

If the decanter of endless water is a large fountain in the center of town then nobody's gonna carry it away.

Shelter, Food, water, light, heat, health. These are pretty easy and obvious to create.

Once you hit 9th level a Lyre of Building or few makes projects go a lot faster. Doing 600 man-days of labor every hour it is used, to construct mines, buildings, whatever. There's no reason why everyone doesn't have a sturdy house and outstanding public works projects. With enough Lyres the cities and mines can look like fancy Middle Earth realms (but with handrails and safety features). Could make 7 Lyres that way musicians can play one every day.

I'm certain we've had a great leap forward via magic thread previously which may be relevant to your interests.

[edit: yep]

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:32 pm

Some of my favorite threads:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52620
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53855

The goodberry dispenser goes a long way.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:27 pm

erik wrote:Making magic items fairly large can diminish the desire to steal them as well.

If the decanter of endless water is a large fountain in the center of town then nobody's gonna carry it away.

Ooh, I like that. Thanks.

These are good links and are appreciated, and it was fun reading them again, but there are a couple major differences between what I'm asking here and those.

I'm using Pathfinder, which has some finicky changes. For instance, on one hand Wall of Iron specifically isn't usable for crafting because that was too powerful, but on the other I have the feat False Focus (I plan to cast Continual Flame basically every day forever) and the spell Blood Money because that's not overpowered at all. Also crafting only takes gold, not xp, for what it's worth.
More importantly, my title was hyperbolic (thus the strike and revision). I'm a single Wizard, trying to get this stuff going at level 3 when I take CWI, and I'm gonna be doing it by myself, with possible occasional help from a Druid, a Cleric, and a Bard of equal level. Items of Goodberry are great. Airships of Prismatic Sphere are not. Massive armies of undead making roads across the continent are entirely out of the picture, at least for now.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:57 pm

Well, it's a ways off, but I still like my Arcane Roads Project. Originally it used a Decanter, Rock to Lava, arbitrarily long metal poles bent at right angles, and Chill Metal

Of course, Pathfinder doesn't have Transmute Stone to Lava. It does, however, have Stone to Mud/Mud to Stone and Polymorph Any Object. So, sure, it's a ways out, but when you get up to the proper level, you can make strong, level roads through out the kingdom. Once you're high enough level, make The Road Maker, an item that turns a 10-20' wide swath of ground to mud, either smoothes it out itself or waits for your well, but cheaply paid peasant road crew to do such, then transmutes the smooth mud into sandstone, then polymorphs the sandstone into, I don't know, granite, marble, whatever.

Short of that, you could make the Automill- A decanter set into a water wheel that provides unlimited power. You solve the problem of accumulating water by running it through a Purify Water effect (just to be safe) into a reservoir that the town's drinking water comes from. (Price of Decanter, plus Water Mill, plus 1,000 gp for the Purify)

The guards would probably like the Measuring Tape of Determine Depth, since getting the exact thicknesses of a box's walls can tell them if there's a hidden compartment. (10,000 gp)

Enchant the docks' nautical charts with Track Ship. (10,000 gp)

Continual Flame Lanterns would be good for the city.

Minor Image Billboards. That is all. (10,000gp)

Sling of Defoliate makes clearing the fields for a new crop a job done in a day by the farmer's kids fucking around. (10,000 gp)

If your town is ok with a bit of creepiness, I highly recommend Bone Sentries-- Sentry Skull, Spectral Hand, Ghoul Touch and, sure, why not, Magic Mouth combined into skull topped poles with skeletal hands decorating the shaft, put up around the city. The triggering condition is "a crime is committed" (if magic can differentiate a Humanoid from an Aberration, it should be able to discern crime), at which point, Magic Mouth says "HALT CRIMINAL SCUM" and a local City Watchman is alerted to the crime in progress. In the case of violent crime, Spectral Hand is activated, and delivers Ghoul Touch to the offender, paralyzing them until the watch gets there, and marking them with stench so they can be identified. (27,500 gp)

You could set up sentry poles at compass points around watch stations. The pole just needs to be within 30' to transmit senses to, lets say, a special helmet, but they can see out to whatever is standard visual range and have darkvision and low light vision. Let's figure you space your continual flame street lamps around the city, so that most of it is under dim light. With Low Light Vision, the Sentry Skulls can see up to 120' away (and I don't know how Darkvision interacts with that). If you add a spyglass (either held up with an unseen servant effect, or just bolted to the skull), they can see up to 240' away. This means you can space watch booths 640' apart (because each is ringed with Bone Sentries 30' away from it). That seems close, but one watchman every two football fields plus a little isn't bad. Actual stations can be located more centrally.

Make Back Braces of Ant Haul for the dock workers (2,000 gp). If you're feeling really generous, add Bull's Strength (25,000 gp). If the dock workers are all orcs or half orcs, add Boiling Blood *and* Bull's Strength (37,000 gp).

Helms of Telekinetic Assembly would be cool too. Assuming the average worker in the siege crew is 2nd level and has five ranks, the Helm you could enchant at 3rd level would allow a standard (Huge) siege engine to be assembled by one Helmed worker in 4 hours. This is double normal time, but if each of the three people that would normally be assembling an engine is given a helm instead, you're constructing three engines in that four hours. If you have six helms and six 2nd level crew men, you can assemble six engines in the time it would otherwise take those six men to assemble two. (10,000 gp)

Oh, and of course, Whispering Post Boxes, which use Whispering Wind and Unseen Servants to send fantasy text messages a few miles away.

Your biggest limiting factor is going to be money. But hey, maybe you can get grants or take commissions, since making any of the above items only takes about a week and a half. Less if you can get your DM to allow you to make those magic item finishing homunculi from Eberron. Oh, also, see about lowering the cost for some of the stuff with your DM. Like the Bone Sentries, the price is based on "Highest is full, next is 75%, remaining are 50%" stuff, but probably shouldn't cost that much, since they're just security cameras with paralysis darts.
Also, those are just 2nd level spells from Paizo. There are totally more things you can do.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:52 am

Telekinetic Assembly doesn't work at level 2 because PF.

A single casting of Planar Binding can get you a Lantern Archon with at-will Continual Flame. It can then light the whole city.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:05 am

Telekinetic Assembly

-1 Worker per two levels (so, -1 at CL 3 when you get it)
-1 Worker if you have any ranks in KnEngineering at all
-1 Worker per five ranks in KnEngineering*
You can use half as many workers to assemble a siege engine if you take twice the time

*Which I just realized you have to be 5th level to have, because PF

Ok, so, yes, it doesn't quite work. So wait till fourth level so your CL gives -2 workers. Or use the revenue from making Bone Sentries for the city to get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:39 am

I have no clue how siege engines work, but reading over Telekinetic Assembly I'm not sure why it doesn't work. Is it because you only have 2 ranks at level 2 instead of 5?

Anyway, Prak, those are great ideas! Thank you. The post boxes - Are the Unseen Servants scribes? Is that how that works?

As for crafting time, I think I'm mostly set there. I got the Familiar Archetype that doubles my crafting time and gives +2, the feat that drops crafting time by 25%, and enough stacked Spellcraft that in most cases I can raise the DC by +5 to double crafting speed, so I think I'm doin' pretty well. Depending on how the math stacks (and I don't think there's a ruling on that), I might end up with 1250gp worth of crafting per day while adventuring and 5kgp per day during downtime. Not bad, really.

TiaC: A bound Lantern Archon is definitely on my list, once I get there. That's only level 9 - same as Fabricate - so yeah.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:45 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Telekinetic Assembly
-1 Worker per two levels (so, -1 at CL 3 when you get it)

-1 Worker if you have any ranks in KnEngineering at all

-1 Worker per five ranks in KnEngineering*

You can use half as many workers to assemble a siege engine if you take twice the time
*Which I just realized you have to be 5th level to have, because PF

Ok, so, yes, it doesn't quite work. So wait till fourth level so your CL gives -2 workers. Or use the revenue from making Bone Sentries for the city to get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

"If your caster level combined with Knowledge (engineering) fails to eliminate the need for workers, this spell fails."
Doesn't this make it all or nothing? With Duration: Instantaneous, I doubt you're allowed to take twice Instantaneous to halve the number of workers.

EDIT: Wait, I'm an idiot. You're totally, explicitly allowed to make items at a higher CL than your own. It'll cost more, but you can do it. It just increases the DC, since the DC is 5+CL (+5 per ignored prereq, like not having Telekinetic Assembly, so like 5+6+5=16, needing a +6 (which I have at l1) for one that works on anyone with KnEngineering)

EDIT2: Though that does get up to base cost 21600. Seems like something that could be charged, though...

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:15 am

Yeah, it was the 5 ranks thing I was pointing out. However, you can't have all that many siege engines so you could probably scrounge up a level 5 character to run them.

Unseen servant can lead to a massive increase in productivity. Just make the item a statue in the square and anyone can get an hours labor by touching it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:43 am

Post Boxes: yeah, the idea is to have the unseen servants scribe the messages.

Telekinetic Assembly: Oh, I'm dumb, I didn't look at the duration. I suppose an item of it could say that it takes the normal amount of time. I don't know all the ins and outs of PF Crafting, though. I'm glad it works out.

Think you could give a run down of how crafting works in PF? I keep wanting to change how crafting works in my game (especially since we're about to add an artificer character) but that requires writing out an entire system.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:55 am

TiaC wrote:Unseen servant can lead to a massive increase in productivity. Just make the item a statue in the square and anyone can get an hours labor by touching it.

The user is the caster, right? Meaning range is measured from the person and they can thus take the servant home? That's a good idea. Thanks.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:18 am

This sort of public access item gets really insane fast. A single item of Create Food and Water feeds up to 21600 people. (Goodbery works too, but I think you still need berries) If they want it to taste better, use Prestidigitation. Make a hospital with items of Remove Disease, Cure Light Wounds and Neutralize Poison. Unseen Crew might work for more physical tasks.

A few other interesting spells:
Anthropomorphic Animal (in case you need some strength)
Keep Watch (if your job isn't vigorous, you can work all night.)
Crafter's Fortune
Augury
Village Veil
Wood Shape
Prosperous Room(?)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:27 am

I like the idea of a "Panacea Dispenser" that uses Create Food to make berries which are then used as for Goodberry, and enchanted with Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison, and finally a hit with a prestidigitation spell for the best artificial flavouring ever, all for the deposit of a single copper. All the common man's health concerns solved for a single coin--which he can afford because you're hitting his crops with Plant Growth every year, aiding his farming with Defoliation Sphere and unseen servant harvesting, and generally making him more productive. The proceeds are then used for more public works items.

The Panacea Dispenser isn't exactly cheap, but you could probably convince several temples and wealthy philanthropists to help with costs, and possibly construction, so that you could have one on every major street.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:30 am

Except that what the hell is he farming once you've replaced all food crops? You can totally make a post-scarcity society, but most people won't have anything they can contribute to it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:31 am

Food to trade to other cities because the sapient mind likes it's shinies so people will still want to make money to buy stuff with?

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:01 am

CRAFTER'S FORTUNE
I'm using it on myself already how did I not think to use it on them thank you.

How does Anthropomorphic animal work here? Just to make big brutes with hands?

How have I never seen Keep Watch before? The vagueness of "vigorous" is distressing. Is embroidery vigorous? Sewing? Weaving? Smithery probably is. Enchanting likely is by fiat. Still....

Village Veil is super nice. Is there a way to make the item so that the village can add people (new babies, especially) to the immune group?

Hm... Fine detail isn't possible with Wood Shape, but it sure would make a lot of things easier, and could make carpentry faster if mundane crafting rules weren't utter shit. I could probably make both an item that casts Wood Shape, for making things, and a wooden item that changes form on command for tools or whatever.

Prosperous Room: ...looks interesting? I don't know what minigame it's tying into there. I'll have to look it up.

Prak_Anima wrote:I like the idea of a "Panacea Dispenser" that uses Create Food to make berries which are then used as for Goodberry, and enchanted with Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison, and finally a hit with a prestidigitation spell for the best artificial flavouring ever, all for the deposit of a single copper. All the common man's health concerns solved for a single coin--which he can afford because you're hitting his crops with Plant Growth every year, aiding his farming with Defoliation Sphere and unseen servant harvesting, and generally making him more productive. The proceeds are then used for more public works items.

The Panacea Dispenser isn't exactly cheap, but you could probably convince several temples and wealthy philanthropists to help with costs, and possibly construction, so that you could have one on every major street.

Ooh! I had considered combining Create Food with Goodberry, but the others make it even better. Nice! And charging... well, it makes some sense. I hadn't planned to, but your point on shinies is valid.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:55 am

Hey, you could also make it a free dispenser. It's not like people can actually use more than 8 berries in a day. Worst case scenario, you have hobos sitting around eating magic berries all day. So long as they're not actually preventing other people from getting berries, no one cares.

So, here's a question that comes to mind because of these threads, but specifically because of the Bone Sentries I wrote up above--

Why the hell does Necromancy come up so much in these? Why do these always come around to "well, it depends on how your people feel about necromancy, but..." Does Necromancy secretly cover the "Shovel Ready Jobs" purview?

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:58 am

I presume it's primarily tied to the idea that undead don't have... needs. Don't need to sleep, don't need to eat, don't need to breathe, don't need various forms of entertainment or actualization. I'm not sure why they're so much cheaper than robots constructs, though. Maybe the corpse retains the nature of motion and you just need magic to replace the soul instead of being a complex whatever.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:11 am

momothefiddler wrote:How does Anthropomorphic animal work here? Just to make big brutes with hands?

More or less. Unseen servant has Str 2, but a heavy horse is size large with 20 Str.

momothefiddler wrote:How have I never seen Keep Watch before? The vagueness of "vigorous" is distressing. Is embroidery vigorous? Sewing? Weaving? Smithery probably is. Enchanting likely is by fiat. Still....

I bet that if you give people another 8 hours of leisure, they'd be willing to work longer.

momothefiddler wrote:Village Veil is super nice. Is there a way to make the item so that the village can add people (new babies, especially) to the immune group?

Give everyone a tattoo. That's a "particular, clearly identifiable physical trait".

momothefiddler wrote:Hm... Fine detail isn't possible with Wood Shape, but it sure would make a lot of things easier, and could make carpentry faster if mundane crafting rules weren't utter shit. I could probably make both an item that casts Wood Shape, for making things, and a wooden item that changes form on command for tools or whatever.

Stone Shape has fewer problems with raw materials. They will let you make 90% of a house in a few castings. The Renovation spell might let you turn the rough house into a finished one. Wall of stone also works.

momothefiddler wrote:Prosperous Room: ...looks interesting? I don't know what minigame it's tying into there. I'll have to look it up.

The rules used are from Kingmaker. They are for running a whole kingdom. I think Business Booms is from the same.

momothefiddler wrote:Ooh! I had considered combining Create Food with Goodberry, but the others make it even better. Nice! And charging... well, it makes some sense. I hadn't planned to, but your point on shinies is valid.

I think the Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison effects are expensive and not usually needed, so it might be best to keep them separate.

The Age Resistance line could be nice.

Mending is really cheap, so why not.

Police should have items of Calm Emotions.

Summon Genie gets you permanent Major Creation.

Borrow Fortune and Gallant Inspiration will help any crucial rolls.

Borrow Skill can multiply the effect of one skilled person. Bestow Insight also helps.

Blessing of the Watch is made for town guards.

Share Memory could allow for faster education especially if used recursively. (Give them one minute of memory during which this was used 10 times to view 10 minutes, during which this was used 100 times...)

Scrivener's Chant might help if the servants can use it.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:01 am

TiaC wrote:
momothefiddler wrote:How does Anthropomorphic animal work here? Just to make big brutes with hands?
More or less. Unseen servant has Str 2, but a heavy horse is size large with 20 Str.

A light horse as Str 16 and can be summoned for 2hr/lvl with a level 1 spell. I could combine them at CL4 and CL8 to conjure day labor...

TiaC wrote:
momothefiddler wrote:How have I never seen Keep Watch before? The vagueness of "vigorous" is distressing. Is embroidery vigorous? Sewing? Weaving? Smithery probably is. Enchanting likely is by fiat. Still....
I bet that if you give people another 8 hours of leisure, they'd be willing to work longer.

Hm. Something to note with regard to Prak's Necromancy point, too....

TiaC wrote:
momothefiddler wrote:Village Veil is super nice. Is there a way to make the item so that the village can add people (new babies, especially) to the immune group?
Give everyone a tattoo. That's a "particular, clearly identifiable physical trait".

Perfect. Wonderful. Outstanding.

TiaC wrote:
momothefiddler wrote:Hm... Fine detail isn't possible with Wood Shape, but it sure would make a lot of things easier, and could make carpentry faster if mundane crafting rules weren't utter shit. I could probably make both an item that casts Wood Shape, for making things, and a wooden item that changes form on command for tools or whatever.
Stone Shape has fewer problems with raw materials. They will let you make 90% of a house in a few castings. The Renovation spell might let you turn the rough house into a finished one. Wall of stone also works.

Wow. Wall of Stone is really flexible.

TiaC wrote:
momothefiddler wrote:Ooh! I had considered combining Create Food with Goodberry, but the others make it even better. Nice! And charging... well, it makes some sense. I hadn't planned to, but your point on shinies is valid.
I think the Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison effects are expensive and not usually needed, so it might be best to keep them separate.

True...

TiaC wrote:The Age Resistance line could be nice.

Give everyone shitty monk immortality. Nice.

TiaC wrote:Mending is really cheap, so why not.

Yeah. 1lb/lvl would probably go a long way.

TiaC wrote:Police should have items of Calm Emotions.

Ooh wow I didn't think of police.

TiaC wrote:Summon Genie gets you permanent Major Creation.

For 9 ft^3 of vegetable matter? Just for like raw materials for the carpenters? Or does "vegetable matter" include finished linen clothing? Because I don't think we have a bypass for that yet.

TiaC wrote:Borrow Fortune and Gallant Inspiration will help any crucial rolls.

Could be nice. Gallant Inspiration is Instantaneous, cast upon failure. Not sure how that would work in an item. Perhaps a garment? Or a tool. Or just a pillar in the middle of the room that applies it to anyone who fails (would that be use-activated?).

TiaC wrote:Borrow Skill can multiply the effect of one skilled person. Bestow Insight also helps.

Borrow Skill probably won't work because the MC's been finicky about 3rd party so far. Bestow Insight could work, depending on how I arrange it I guess.... Seems like in most cases it'd just be easier to make a bunch of hats/gloves/whatever to bestow skill bonuses. Maybe use Bestow Insight to also make it count as trained, for the skills that matter.

TiaC wrote:Blessing of the Watch is made for town guards.

You know, I always ignore that because I'm like "when will I ever use this" but for an item it can be pretty nice.

TiaC wrote:Share Memory could allow for faster education especially if used recursively. (Give them one minute of memory during which this was used 10 times to view 10 minutes, during which this was used 100 times...)

Oooooh.

TiaC wrote:Scrivener's Chant might help if the servants can use it.

Ooh! Easy enough to make that Use-Activated (or command-word, why not) and have like a little desk with two page-sized indentations and a quill.

Thanks again for all these. You're both helping a lot. I'm really excited!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:23 am

Major/Minor creation are raw materials only, but that's what Fabricate is for. Somewhere on these boards i posted a write up of someone using it to create condoms and sell them for a penny to become rich off of a days work.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:34 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Major/Minor creation are raw materials only, but that's what Fabricate is for. Somewhere on these boards i posted a write up of someone using it to create condoms and sell them for a penny to become rich off of a days work.

You got the restriction wrong. Major and Minor Creation can mke compliex items, it's that everything you make has a duration. So you can make food or fuel, but if you make tools or clothes you have to make them from scratch every day.

Of course, you could have a minor creation based fashion, where people literally had their clothes created anew on their bodies every day.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:36 am

how does magic deal with sewage?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:40 am

OgreBattle wrote:how does magic deal with sewage?

-Username17