Oh in that case, in regards to Second Edition, you would be wrong. Pages 196-197 talk about running a bull session which is based on doing things that the players want the characters to do.silva wrote:Oh sure, Ive already answered that. In fact, its the very first post of the thread..Leress wrote:Frank wrote:Shadowrun has more pages devoted to sand boxy stuff than all the games silva likes combined.
Silva wrote:Now, what really baffles me is the fact that the Shadowrun setting and premise together produce one of the best environments for player-driven/sandbox gaming ever. You got independent criminals trying to make cash and rep in a very dynamical environment full of potential opportunities, employers and sponsors - gangs, corps, police, governments, tribes, criminal sindicates, rogue operatives, etc. Also, you have this neat concept of "Contacts" in place which further help to build a network of relationships and conflicting interests just waiting for the players to tap in and generate a million gaming hooks per night ...
...but then the GM is adviced to run it like a fucking Fighting Fantasy gamebook with a set plot and scenes and "pace" and climax and shit.
Am I the only one to see the paradox and amazingly wasted opportunity here ?
Shadowrun and Railroading: Why ?
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Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
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The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Yeah Leress, I also cited that part of the 2nd edition somewhere. Frankly, I dont think saying "if your players dont want to go on your run, just do a bull session with them based on things they want" classify as advice or structure on how to run a sandbox game, the same way saying "if they like stories, just do a railroad" classify as advice on how to run a railroad, or "if they like combats, just setup some encounters" classify as advice on how to prep combat-encounters based sessions.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
The thing is most of the advice for running a sandbox is also used for running a game world in general.silva wrote:Yeah Leress, I also cited that part of the 2nd edition somewhere. Frankly, I dont think saying "if your players dont want to go on your run, just do a bull session with them based on things they want" classify as advice or structure on how to run a sandbox game, the same way saying "if they like stories, just do a railroad" classify as advice on how to run a railroad, or "if they like combats, just setup some encounters" classify as advice on how to prep combat-encounters based sessions.
You said:
So the little blurb about bull sessions as well as the rest of the section pretty much to do just that. Or if you want a more expanded version 2ed has a book call Shadowrun Companion which has a section called alternate campaign concepts that have players doing things besides being shadowrunners.In a sandbox, the GM dont tell stories - the players do. So, its not a matter of the GM finding a way to work those characters together in his story. Its a matter of the player group talking out and finding a middle ground of goals they find interesting and manageble, and go with it.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
]I want him to tongue-punch my box.
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
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Shadowrun has been in-print in various editions for a quarter of a century. It has been produced by three different companies and gone through a double digit number of line developers. During this time it has spent multiple years as one of the top five RPGs on the market.
It would be extremely weird if during this period Shadowrun had not at times advocated extreme railroading, extreme sandboxing, and everything in between. And of course it has. But Shadowrun is also a game where the players are specifically empowered to simply get on a plane and go anywhere else in the world. If the players decide that things are getting too hot for them in London, they can relocate to Hong Kong. If they decide things are getting too hot in Portland, they can relocate to Los Angeles. If they decide that they are bored with Seattle, they can relocate to Berlin. They can visit foreign countries or they can just plain permanently move there at any time.
Even the sections of various editions which encourage extremely linear adventures still exist in a context where the players can and do have radical control over their location and goals between those missions in a way that few other games can match.
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It would be extremely weird if during this period Shadowrun had not at times advocated extreme railroading, extreme sandboxing, and everything in between. And of course it has. But Shadowrun is also a game where the players are specifically empowered to simply get on a plane and go anywhere else in the world. If the players decide that things are getting too hot for them in London, they can relocate to Hong Kong. If they decide things are getting too hot in Portland, they can relocate to Los Angeles. If they decide that they are bored with Seattle, they can relocate to Berlin. They can visit foreign countries or they can just plain permanently move there at any time.
Even the sections of various editions which encourage extremely linear adventures still exist in a context where the players can and do have radical control over their location and goals between those missions in a way that few other games can match.
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I think I understand what you'd like to see silva, but I wonder if it could be done in a satisfying manner.
I guess you could have guidelines about how to set up your game world, and how to handle the reactions of corporations, gangs, crime syndicate and other movers and shakers.
But going further and providing actual rules/step-by-step guides would be very difficult.
I guess you could have guidelines about how to set up your game world, and how to handle the reactions of corporations, gangs, crime syndicate and other movers and shakers.
But going further and providing actual rules/step-by-step guides would be very difficult.
I didn't go too deep into the book, but Emergence (for 4th edition) looks as sandboxy as it gets. Lots of setting information, few specific run ideas.
Then again you have the Artefacts series, which is more on the railroad side of the things.
Sure the Shadowrun trope is Mr. Johnson giving you a job, but that is just the surface. It also makes things easier for the GM to plan, but he does not have to do it that way. IMO, the Shadowrun setting lends itself more to sandbox then lets say Forgotten Realms. If the players say, fuck it! We are going to Hawai its much easier for the GM to pull things out of his ass, then if PC's in FR decide to go to Evermeet or whatever far out place.
Because Hawai in SR setting is just like Hawai today with Corporate explotation and magic shit. And more guns. Which is not hard for the GM to bullshit through.
Then again you have the Artefacts series, which is more on the railroad side of the things.
Sure the Shadowrun trope is Mr. Johnson giving you a job, but that is just the surface. It also makes things easier for the GM to plan, but he does not have to do it that way. IMO, the Shadowrun setting lends itself more to sandbox then lets say Forgotten Realms. If the players say, fuck it! We are going to Hawai its much easier for the GM to pull things out of his ass, then if PC's in FR decide to go to Evermeet or whatever far out place.
Because Hawai in SR setting is just like Hawai today with Corporate explotation and magic shit. And more guns. Which is not hard for the GM to bullshit through.
Last edited by Ghremdal on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not to mention that since it has the exact same international megacorps running it and the exact same spells being used in it, it's just like Seattle and every other place in the Shadowrun setting.Because Hawai in SR setting is just like Hawai today with Corporate explotation and magic shit. And more guns. Which is not hard for the GM to bullshit through.
@Ghremdal:
Emergence is very sandboxy indeed, but it actually highlights what silva wants: the GM will have a lot of work to do to turn it into a campaign. There are some plothooks and guidelines to help the GM include the events in his game, but there aren't clear rules for building your campaign.
But while I think the guidelines could have done with a bit more work, and it should be possible to write a "how to set up and handle your Shadowrun sandbox campaign environment" guide, I don't think it's possible to satisfyingly offer a turnkey solution for a Shadowrun sandbox campaign.
Emergence is very sandboxy indeed, but it actually highlights what silva wants: the GM will have a lot of work to do to turn it into a campaign. There are some plothooks and guidelines to help the GM include the events in his game, but there aren't clear rules for building your campaign.
But while I think the guidelines could have done with a bit more work, and it should be possible to write a "how to set up and handle your Shadowrun sandbox campaign environment" guide, I don't think it's possible to satisfyingly offer a turnkey solution for a Shadowrun sandbox campaign.
Exactly, Blade. ( finally, someone fully understands what Im talking about )
Yes, precisely. "Running a game-world" is a nice way of putting it. If you can simulate minimally well a gameworld behavior, and how the lives of the runners fit in that, then you have a sandbox.Leress wrote:The thing is most of the advice for running a sandbox is also used for running a game world in general.
The text on Companion is a bit better on giving the kind of advice Im talking about, if I remember well. Sadly, its still not for the default game activity.Or if you want a more expanded version 2ed has a book call Shadowrun Companion which has a section called alternate campaign concepts that have players doing things besides being shadowrunners.
Last edited by silva on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
*sigh* I shouldn't feed the troll, but I actually like Blade and if he's engaging then I shall too.silva wrote:Yeah, the text on Companion is a bit better on giving the kind of advice Im talking about, if I remember well. Sadly, its still not for the default game activity.
The "default game activity" should never be sandboxing. The default game activity should always be "PCs doing kickass things on screen." Sandboxing involves simulating a world, which is an inherently passive form of entertainment for the players, and thus should be a downtime activity.
When I'm playing, I want every second to be about player agency and player character roleplaying. If I have to roll on a table to determine whether stray dogs have moved into the abandoned building next door, and then on another table to determine how many and what colour and whether or not they have D100 fleas each, then that is not fun.
The sandbox should be a background thing, which feeds the players' actions into the world and returns information about how it's adjusting to those actions.
There's a difference.
Laertes, by "the default gaming activity" I meant Shadowrunning. The supplement Leress cites gives some advice for campaigns on Emergency medical teams, cops, gangers, etc. I would never say that the "default game activity" should be sandbox, first because its not an activity in my view (its a style of gaming, but thats semantics) and second because people should be free to run whatever they prefer.
About the troll acusation, please, provide any indcation that Ive being behaving like that in is thread and Ill agree with you. Because up till now I havent deviate from the discussion one single moment, nor sidestepped to insult or ad-hominate anyone, as other people have.
About the troll acusation, please, provide any indcation that Ive being behaving like that in is thread and Ill agree with you. Because up till now I havent deviate from the discussion one single moment, nor sidestepped to insult or ad-hominate anyone, as other people have.
Last edited by silva on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Never been interested enough to read it in any detail (I'm told the system is pretty awful) but the premise of Dog Town is that you're are a criminal and have 90 days to raise $100,000 to get in on a deal that will set you up for life. Only 2 of the 9 neighbourhoods got a source book but they have writeups for places and NPC's and list the when and where of certain events to occur during the 90 days. Is that the sort of thing you're after?
Ofcourse that's alot of detail in a pretty small box, which makes me think if the goal is player driven games, I'm not sure how a tightly defined sandbox is strictly better than general advice to run bull sessions in a cool setting. They seem more like different points on a detail vs scope spectrum.
Ofcourse that's alot of detail in a pretty small box, which makes me think if the goal is player driven games, I'm not sure how a tightly defined sandbox is strictly better than general advice to run bull sessions in a cool setting. They seem more like different points on a detail vs scope spectrum.
Last edited by DEBO on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thats interesting, Debo. Ill take a look at that. Thnaks. 
Just take a look on the thread "Grain size in the sandbox" by Virgil thats around. Lots of very useful advice in there for sandbox gaming, and much more helpful than just saying "go do a bull session with the players".Debo wrote:I'm not sure how a tightly defined sandbox is strictly better than general advice to run bull sessions in a cool setting
Last edited by silva on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:59 am, edited 5 times in total.
I don't see this as being right at all.Ghremdal wrote: Sure the Shadowrun trope is Mr. Johnson giving you a job, but that is just the surface. It also makes things easier for the GM to plan, but he does not have to do it that way. IMO, the Shadowrun setting lends itself more to sandbox then lets say Forgotten Realms. If the players say, fuck it! We are going to Hawai its much easier for the GM to pull things out of his ass, then if PC's in FR decide to go to Evermeet or whatever far out place.
Because Hawai in SR setting is just like Hawai today with Corporate explotation and magic shit. And more guns. Which is not hard for the GM to bullshit through.
If your players have never been to hawii and, more importantly, if your DM has never been to hawii then honestly what is the differeance between your DM running Shadowrun Hawii from the notes in a sourcebook to your DM running Evermeet from notes in a sourcebook.
Even Franks argument that players can say "I am done with this BS, I am getting out of here" exists just as equally in the forgotten realms as it does in shadowrun. The only differance is that because of the backing FLUFF the the players may find a "we give up and go to ground" plan to be more palitable than they would in a fantasy setting were generally this would mean letting Vecna rule the cosmos for eternity.
On the other hand, most of the railraod type shadow adventures tend to have "end of the world" type consequences backed in and if they don't they tend to have an organization that is given Kaiser Soze type "get you no matter where you go" creepy muderous power. (Heck Shadowrun Returns basic campaign has BOTH of these things)
I honestly think that the real reason why people don't feel like something like the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is very sandboxable is because when TSR/Wizards/Whoever writes sourcebooks for it they include lots of places with lots of little details and then they describe two or three really fantastic [as in suitable only for a world of fantasy, not neccessarly well written but some are] locations for each place.
Then when they write adventures or sourcebooks or novels they NEVER USE THE STUFF THEY DESCRIBED. So it feels like those aspects of the setting are made of glass. They are anti-checkov's guns. Anything described in a sourcebook is ever afterward immutable.
Shadowrun, on the other hand, has at least been pretty good about using its own cool shit. If they put out a 120 page sourcebook on the fae courts of denver or whatever and then they put out a little 30 page pdf on "rock bands of the shadows" you can bet that the next adventure will involve the lead singer of one of those bands doing enough future drugs out of the navel of a faiery that its given him magic powers and so now his songs are about to cover the whole west coast in an eternal, and very angsty, winter.
Wait, what? I know only about six of them (Tom Dowd, Nigel Findley, Michael Mulvihill, Rob Boyle, Peter Taylor, and Jason Hardy). That is, unless you count the period during which so little editorial control was exerted that every one with the opportunity to write something in a sourcebook was in fact is own line developer.FrankTrollman wrote:Shadowrun has [...] gone through a double digit number of line developers.
The difference is that, even if players or DM never visited Hawaii, they all have certain expectations of the place, if only as superficial as tourist trap, sun, waves, active volcano. What is more important they all have very similar expectations.souran wrote:I don't see this as being right at all.Ghremdal wrote: Sure the Shadowrun trope is Mr. Johnson giving you a job, but that is just the surface. It also makes things easier for the GM to plan, but he does not have to do it that way. IMO, the Shadowrun setting lends itself more to sandbox then lets say Forgotten Realms. If the players say, fuck it! We are going to Hawai its much easier for the GM to pull things out of his ass, then if PC's in FR decide to go to Evermeet or whatever far out place.
Because Hawai in SR setting is just like Hawai today with Corporate explotation and magic shit. And more guns. Which is not hard for the GM to bullshit through.
If your players have never been to hawii and, more importantly, if your DM has never been to hawii then honestly what is the differeance between your DM running Shadowrun Hawii from the notes in a sourcebook to your DM running Evermeet from notes in a sourcebook.
Even Franks argument that players can say "I am done with this BS, I am getting out of here" exists just as equally in the forgotten realms as it does in shadowrun. The only differance is that because of the backing FLUFF the the players may find a "we give up and go to ground" plan to be more palitable than they would in a fantasy setting were generally this would mean letting Vecna rule the cosmos for eternity.
The notes the GM has to prepare need not so be extensive as the ones he needs to prepare for Evermeet. Basic setting knowledge is already known by the players, and you can pull stuff out of your ass far more easily then for FR.
Again, that is not true at all. Even if all your players are Americans they will have very different impressions about what Hawaii is like. One might think its like the depection of that location in Hawaii 5/0 while anothers impression might be based more on surfing movies like Point Break even thought that movie is set in california.Ghremdal wrote: The difference is that, even if players or DM never visited Hawaii, they all have certain expectations of the place, if only as superficial as tourist trap, sun, waves, active volcano. What is more important they all have very similar expectations.
The notes the GM has to prepare need not so be extensive as the ones he needs to prepare for Evermeet. Basic setting knowledge is already known by the players, and you can pull stuff out of your ass far more easily then for FR.
A FOREIGN country will be even worse for this effect. Get your group of 3-5 shadowrun players in a room and ask them what their expectations are for JAPAN. They won't seem like remotely the same place.
Even Europe will be bad in this regard, and Eastern Europe even more so. If you have a group of American players and you ask them to tell you about Poland NOW much less the "shadows of Poland" you will get people talking about kidnapping, Hostels, run down infrastructure...even though almost all of those things are not actually things people encounter traveling in Poland.
Further, if I tell you that there is an island kingdom run by elves in a D&D setting that tells you a lot of information for the player and DM right there. They are going to draw from Warcraft and LOTR movies and all the other media they have read and come up with an idea. If you choose to make it a "my elves are different" situation you will suprise them. IF you not then they will build what descriptions you give into the socieity they were building from their existing media exposure.
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darkmaster
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You know, I know that this is a bit off topic, but isn't that kind of weird? It is nightmarish to gain permanent residence in a country now. Can you imagine how difficult it would be in a world where you basically have get your passport punched to enter a city block owned by a corporation without shoot on site orders being issued?FrankTrollman wrote:They can visit foreign countries or they can just plain permanently move there at any time.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Most characters in Shadowrun are illegals who have forged papers if they have papers at all. Living in the barrens of Seattle is just like living in the Favellas of Brasil. You're undocumented, who cares where you are?darkmaster wrote:You know, I know that this is a bit off topic, but isn't that kind of weird? It is nightmarish to gain permanent residence in a country now. Can you imagine how difficult it would be in a world where you basically have get your passport punched to enter a city block owned by a corporation without shoot on site orders being issued?FrankTrollman wrote:They can visit foreign countries or they can just plain permanently move there at any time.
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darkmaster
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Well, if the recent link in the political news thread is anything to go by, lots of people. But point taken.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
I don't know what it's like in Česko, but in this country if you're undocumented then where you're going is nowhere. Even leaving the country without documentation is tightly policed. Nobody cares where you are, but they damn well want to make sure you stay there.Frank Trollman wrote:Most characters in Shadowrun are illegals who have forged papers if they have papers at all. Living in the barrens of Seattle is just like living in the Favellas of Brasil. You're undocumented, who cares where you are?
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I lived in Czech Republic undocumented for 3 years. The difficulties with being undocumented are numerous. You can't legally work, you can't own property, blah blah blah. But characters in Shadowru are contract criminals. None of that shit matters to them. Or rather, while it does matter, the assumption is that these are issues that the player characters have to deal with every day.Laertes wrote:I don't know what it's like in Česko, but in this country if you're undocumented then where you're going is nowhere. Even leaving the country without documentation is tightly policed. Nobody cares where you are, but they damn well want to make sure you stay there.Frank Trollman wrote:Most characters in Shadowrun are illegals who have forged papers if they have papers at all. Living in the barrens of Seattle is just like living in the Favellas of Brasil. You're undocumented, who cares where you are?
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To me, the assumption is more that "we don't want to bother with that stuff, we want to concentrate on the blueprints of this Mitsuhama research facility." Which is probably for the best because a lot of the Shadowrun worldbuilding falls apart if you look at it too hard. It's there to provide a backdrop and a rationale for the game, not to be minutely explored.I lived in Czech Republic undocumented for 3 years. The difficulties with being undocumented are numerous. You can't legally work, you can't own property, blah blah blah. But characters in Shadowru are contract criminals. None of that shit matters to them. Or rather, while it does matter, the assumption is that these are issues that the player characters have to deal with every day.
But yeah, being undocumented sucks. I'm glad you got out of that.
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Well SR characters are still going to need contacts to get any kind of high-paying jobs. Otherwise, you're basically stuck joining a street gang or something.FrankTrollman wrote: I lived in Czech Republic undocumented for 3 years. The difficulties with being undocumented are numerous. You can't legally work, you can't own property, blah blah blah. But characters in Shadowru are contract criminals. None of that shit matters to them. Or rather, while it does matter, the assumption is that these are issues that the player characters have to deal with every day.