Plot Hooks Based on Real Politics

[angelfromanotherpin]

You need to read that gigantic discussion that Frank linked. The Imperium is objectively shittier at defending humanity from 'worse things' than the Tau, the Eldar, or even the Orks. Indeed, with the exception of the Tyranids and the Necrons, you could make an argument that life under anyone else is better than life under the Imperium.

[OgreBattle]

This isn't a defense of any group or ideology, but no matter how reprehensible their beliefs, very few are EVIL in every way. The Nazis had anti - smoking laws and probably animal rights legislation. When a terrible group does any good, our monkey brains have trouble.

Here's propaganda of emaciated lab animals heiling Goering for saving them from cruel medical experiments:

And here's Hitler's rants on vegetarianism:

5th November 1941, evening
Hitler talks to SS Colonel Blaschke and Nazi scientist Dr. Richter on the virtues of organic produce

There is an interesting document, dating from the time of
Caesar, which indicates that the soldiers of that time lived on a
vegetarian diet. According to the same source, it was only in
times of shortage that soldiers had recourse to meat...

...It's probable that, in the old days, human beings lived longer
than they do now. The turning-point came when man replaced the raw elements in his diet by foods that he sterilizes when he eats them

...Everything that lives on earth feeds on living materials. The
fact that man subjects his foodstuffs to a physio-chemical
process explains the so-called "maladies of civilization". If the
average term of lifis at present increasing, that's because people
are again finding room for a naturalistic diet. It's a revolution.
That a fatty substance extracted from coal has the same value as
olive-oil, that l don't believe at all!

...But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat, that the
world of the future will be vegetarian !



Night of I2th-i3th January 1942
Hitler talks in private to his secretary Bormann about becoming King of the Muslims

Mark my words, Bormann, I'm going to become very
religious!

Bormann: "You've always been very religious"

I'm going to become a religious figure! Soon I'll be the great chief of the Tartars. Already Arabs and Moroccans are mingling my name with their prayers. Among the Tartars I shall become Khan. The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheikhs' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat. If they don't wait too long, I'll fall back on their harems!




22nd January 1942, evening
Hitler meets with Admiral Fricke and talks about sumo wrestlers

Among the animals, those who are carnivores put up performances much inferior to those of the herbivores. A lion's in no shape to run for a quarter of an hour—the elephant can run for eight hours! The monkeys, our ancestors of prehistoric times, are strictly vegetarian. Japanese wrestlers, who are among the strongest men in the world, feed exclusively on vegetables. The same's true of the Turkish porter, who can move a piano by himself.

When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there. In the same way, the child would never begin to drink or smoke if it weren't to imitate others. The consumption of meat is reduced the moment the market presents a greater choice of vegetables, and in proportion as each man can afford the luxury of the first fruits.

I suppose man became carnivorous because, during the Ice Age, circumstances compelled him. They also prompted him to have his food cooked, a habit which, as one knows to-day, has harmful consequences. Our peasants never eat any food that hasn't been cooked and re-cooked, and thus deprived of all its virtues. The southern peoples are not acquainted either with a meat diet or with cooking. I lived marvelously in Italy. I don't know any country that enlivens one more. Roman food, how delicious it is!




25th April 1942, Reich Chancellery, midday
Hitler meets with Dr. Göbbel's for an important conversation about the eating habits of African Vegetarians

One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat. It is also an interesting fact that among the Negroes the children of those tribes which are primarily vegetarian develop more harmoniously than those of the tribes in which it is customary for the mother to feed her infant up to the age of four or five. As regards animals, the dog, which is carnivorous, cannot compare in performance with the horse, which is vegetarian. In the same way, the lion shows signs of fatigue after covering two or three kilometers, while the camel marches for six or seven days before even his tongue begins to hang out. Speaking generally, the experts do not take facts sufficiently into consideration. It has been proved that a vegetarian diet—and particularly a diet of potato peelings and raw potatoes—will cure beri-beri within a week.

Those who adopt a vegetarian diet must remember that it is in their raw state that vegetables have their greatest nutritive value. The fly feeds on fresh leaves, the frog swallows the fly as it is, and the stork eats the living frog. Nature thus teaches us that a rational diet should be based on eating things in their raw state. Science has proved, too, that cooking destroys the vitamins, which are the most valuable part of our food. It has not yet been established beyond doubt whether cooking destroys merely certain chemical particles or whether it also destroys the essential fermentation juices.

Our children to-day are much healthier than those of the Imperial and Weimar Republic periods because mothers now realise that they contribute far more to the health of their children if they give them raw vegetables and roots to chew
than if they give them boiled milk.




April 26, 1942, Joseph Goebbels writes in his diary about what he learned about vegetables that day

An extended chapter of our talk was devoted by the Führer to the vegetarian question. He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity. Of course he knows that during the war we cannot completely upset our food system. After the war, however, he intends to tackle this problem also. Maybe he is right. Certainly the arguments that he adduces in favor of his standpoint are very compelling




8th July 1942, at dinner
Hitler addresses everyone in attendance about how wise his dog Blondi is

In many ways, my sheepdog Blondi is a vegetarian. There are lots of herbs which she eats with obvious pleasure, and it is interesting to see how she turns to them if her stomach is out of order. It is astonishing to see how wise animals are, and how well they know what is good for them.

When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages. I shall be interested to see whether
my dog eventually becomes a complete and confirmed vegetarian.

[OgreBattle]

Indeed, with the exception of the Tyranids and the Necrons, you could make an argument that life under anyone else is better than life under the Imperium.

The necrons got revamped, some of the Necron lords just want to rule over people. The necrons who want to exterminate all life like zombie terminators were retconned into having mental illness. But the thing with Necrons is if they live long enough they all go mentally ill in various ways.

[darkmaster]

Hey, the necrons are awesome! you don't know that once they kill you they're not going to convert your body into a robot zombie. Come on, robot zombie space marines! That many cool things in one place threatens to create a singularity and destroy the universe... And it would be awesome!

[schpeelah]

I may be considered odd here, but I'm totally okay with playing a game where everyone is a nazi, and the whole thing is completely racist, because it isn't real life. And it actually doesn't matter if someone is a racist in how they think, because it is what you do that really matters. So, if you are playing a game, you can do all sorts of horrible things, and you haven't actually done them. So, no one is actually, physically hurt.

I'd say that a game in which everyone is a Nazi can be OK, but a game in which exterminating Jews en masse is good is morally corrupt.

[Chamomile]

There's a difference between playing an evil campaign where committing atrocities is the point and playing a campaign where the theme of the campaign itself (and not just in-universe propaganda) is "Hitler did nothing wrong."

[OgreBattle]

Come on, robot zombie space marines! That many cool things in one place threatens to create a singularity and destroy the universe... And it would be awesome!

Here you go:

[AndreiChekov]

I may be considered odd here, but I'm totally okay with playing a game where everyone is a nazi, and the whole thing is completely racist, because it isn't real life. And it actually doesn't matter if someone is a racist in how they think, because it is what you do that really matters. So, if you are playing a game, you can do all sorts of horrible things, and you haven't actually done them. So, no one is actually, physically hurt.

I'd say that a game in which everyone is a Nazi can be OK, but a game in which exterminating Jews en masse is good is morally corrupt.

Sure, but it is still better that people do that in a game than in real life.

[Username17]

I may be considered odd here, but I'm totally okay with playing a game where everyone is a nazi, and the whole thing is completely racist, because it isn't real life. And it actually doesn't matter if someone is a racist in how they think, because it is what you do that really matters. So, if you are playing a game, you can do all sorts of horrible things, and you haven't actually done them. So, no one is actually, physically hurt.

I'd say that a game in which everyone is a Nazi can be OK, but a game in which exterminating Jews en masse is good is morally corrupt.

Sure, but it is still better that people do that in a game than in real life.

If people "do that in a game" they are doing it in real life. If you make or play a game in which the Nazis' mass murder of Jews and Gypsies is a "good thing," you are spreading violent Neo-Nazi propaganda and you're a horrible person. This isn't an empty hypothetical, RaHoWa is a real game, and that is what it is.

You literally just said that you'd rather people spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world than... have them spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world. That doesn't make any fucking sense and you should be ashamed of yourself.

-Username17

[nockermensch]

You literally just said that you'd rather people spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world than... have them spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world. That doesn't make any fucking sense and you should be ashamed of yourself.

The only way I can parse what AndreiChekov said is that he'd rather have people acting on racist fantasies in a game than having them being violent racists on reality. You know, the same argument claiming that playing violent videogames reduces actual violence.

[Wiseman]

But I'm not sure if the same applies to racism and such.

[Laertes]

One has to differentiate between "racist ideology", and "deliberate actions against other people based on racist ideology". Is fantasising about doing the latter morally the same as doing the latter? No. Is it the morally the same as the former? Arguably, yes. Does the former lead to the latter? Definitely and provably.

[AndreiChekov]

I'd say that a game in which everyone is a Nazi can be OK, but a game in which exterminating Jews en masse is good is morally corrupt.

Sure, but it is still better that people do that in a game than in real life.

If people "do that in a game" they are doing it in real life. If you make or play a game in which the Nazis' mass murder of Jews and Gypsies is a "good thing," you are spreading violent Neo-Nazi propaganda and you're a horrible person. This isn't an empty hypothetical, RaHoWa is a real game, and that is what it is.

You literally just said that you'd rather people spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world than... have them spread hateful Neo-Nazi propaganda into the real world. That doesn't make any fucking sense and you should be ashamed of yourself.

-Username17

What I meant is that I would rather have people running around killing people because they are different in a game, than have them doing it in real life.

Racism in itself isn't bad, killing people is bad. If someone thinks that some person is a dirty scumbag because they are whatever, then it doesn't actually matter. If they kill them or lock them in a cell because of this, then it does matter.

TL;DR racism is bad when people do it, not when they think it.

[ACOS]

Racism in itself isn't bad, killing people is bad. If someone thinks that some person is a dirty scumbag because they are whatever, then it doesn't actually matter. If they kill them or lock them in a cell because of this, then it does matter.

TL;DR racism is bad when people do it, not when they think it.

And just where in the hell do you think the actions are spawned from? Idle curiosity?
And there are a whole host of actions that fall below "killing" that are down-right dangerous to society. And you get exactly 1 guess at where those actions come from as well.

[RadiantPhoenix]

TL;DR racism is bad when people do it, not when they think it.

Racism is still bad when people think it, it's just that forbidding thoughts is worse.

[Laertes]

TL;DR racism is bad when people do it, not when they think it.

Racism is an idea: thinking it is doing it. People like you remind me of why I left South Africa.

The only cure for racism is to punish people for ever speaking it; so that the next generation will not inherit such ideas, and thus when you die your hate dies with you. Allowing the free expression of such ideas is exactly like encouraging a Herpes carrier to be promiscuous and prophylactic-free just because they insist that they're asymptomatic.

[OgreBattle]

Wait, are we talking about campaigns where you persecute other humans because you're an evil murderous regime... or are we talking about killing vampires, demons, orcs and other 'these guys are born evil' fantasy monsters?

[ACOS]

Wait, are we talking about campaigns where you persecute other humans because you're an evil murderous regime... or are we talking about killing vampires, demons, orcs and other 'these guys are born evil' fantasy monsters?

I think that the latter was originally being discussed; but then AndreiChekov seemed to have turned it in to the former.

[fectin]

TL;DR racism is bad when people do it, not when they think it.

Racism is an idea: thinking it is doing it. People like you remind me of why I left South Africa.

The only cure for racism is to punish people for ever speaking it; so that the next generation will not inherit such ideas, and thus when you die your hate dies with you. Allowing the free expression of such ideas is exactly like encouraging a Herpes carrier to be promiscuous and prophylactic-free just because they insist that they're asymptomatic.

It doesn't work that way, as Lamarck proved.

Also, I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're a herpes carrier. Ever had chicken pox?

[deaddmwalking]

On the subject of prejudice, I've been to the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles (and also a similar museum in Washington DC, so I apologize if I conflate them). When you arrive, there is a door that invites those without prejudice to enter. It doesn't open.

The door next to it is the only one people can pass through - the one that accepts that you have prejudice.

Human beings are hard-wired to notice patterns. We also have biases that support our already held beliefs and discount anything that would challenge it.

Acting on prejudice is bad. Having prejudice is a normal part of being human.

Now, how you form those beliefs is going to matter, too. But it's funny - people that will tell you that 'racism is wrong' will happily pretend that all members of an opposing political party are terrible people who ought not be allowed to continue living. It's not pretty.

By and large tolerance has been growing, despite large and vocal hate-groups; sometimes in response to it. Some people who might be okay with a little discrimination are afraid of being lumped in with the extremists...

Playing Nazis in a historical game is not as bad as being an actual Nazi. Playing the role of a Nazi in a movie is not as bad as being an actual Nazi. Despite the fact that some people will like the uniforms and your dialogue (and maybe even the lines you express) does not make you guilty of either doing or even necessarily believing those things. So yes, playing a horrific game is better than doing horrific things in real life...

But if you're playing with someone who does horrific things in a game, there's a better than even chance that they wish they could do such things in real life. Wish fulfillment, after all, is a big part of the appeal of fantasy gaming. If you're not comfortable being associated with those people, you probably shouldn't play with them.

As They Might Be Giants so eloquently put it, "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

[hyzmarca]

The whole point of an "are we the baddies?" game is to make your players ask questions and examine the situation from both sides, and to show how easy it is to fall into that mentality.

Thus you take the standard fantasy tropes of the good races fighting against the evil races and you undermine it by making things more ambiguous and drawing parallels to real world events.

That is, you show that Lord of the Rings is sort of Naziish without going whole hog and declaring Sauron a paragon of goodness and virtue . (It is actually possible for everyone to be bad guys, a war doesn't need a good side and an evil side. It just needs sides.)


Deliberate racism is something else.

But the thing is, game designers and fantasy writers don't paint entire races as evil because they have a racist agenda (RaHoWa's designers excepted). They do it because it's easy.

[erik]

But if you're playing with someone who does horrific things in a game, there's a better than even chance that they wish they could do such things in real life. Wish fulfillment, after all, is a big part of the appeal of fantasy gaming. If you're not comfortable being associated with those people, you probably shouldn't play with them.

As They Might Be Giants so eloquently put it, "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

Meh.

If someone consistently plays an evil character then maybe that says something about their proclivities. But sometimes it can be interesting to be the bad guys.

[AndreiChekov]

On the subject of prejudice, I've been to the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles (and also a similar museum in Washington DC, so I apologize if I conflate them). When you arrive, there is a door that invites those without prejudice to enter. It doesn't open.

The door next to it is the only one people can pass through - the one that accepts that you have prejudice.

Human beings are hard-wired to notice patterns. We also have biases that support our already held beliefs and discount anything that would challenge it.

Acting on prejudice is bad. Having prejudice is a normal part of being human.

Now, how you form those beliefs is going to matter, too. But it's funny - people that will tell you that 'racism is wrong' will happily pretend that all members of an opposing political party are terrible people who ought not be allowed to continue living. It's not pretty.

By and large tolerance has been growing, despite large and vocal hate-groups; sometimes in response to it. Some people who might be okay with a little discrimination are afraid of being lumped in with the extremists...

Playing Nazis in a historical game is not as bad as being an actual Nazi. Playing the role of a Nazi in a movie is not as bad as being an actual Nazi. Despite the fact that some people will like the uniforms and your dialogue (and maybe even the lines you express) does not make you guilty of either doing or even necessarily believing those things. So yes, playing a horrific game is better than doing horrific things in real life...

But if you're playing with someone who does horrific things in a game, there's a better than even chance that they wish they could do such things in real life. Wish fulfillment, after all, is a big part of the appeal of fantasy gaming. If you're not comfortable being associated with those people, you probably shouldn't play with them.

As They Might Be Giants so eloquently put it, "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

I was thinking to post something along these lines. But you beat me to it.

I definitely agree that prejudices are a part of humanity, and if racism goes away, then people will just find some other reason to hate everyone else, so I don't really care why they do it, as long as they don't kill people for it. And if someone tries to steal my tv because of who I am, I am going to kick their ass. If someone tries to steal my tv because they want my tv, I'm still going to kick their ass.

[kzt]

The whole point of an "are we the baddies?" game is to make your players ask questions and examine the situation from both sides, and to show how easy it is to fall into that mentality.
...
It is actually possible for everyone to be bad guys, a war doesn't need a good side and an evil side. It just needs sides.

Real world, serious wars tend to make normal people do things by the end that a few years earlier they not only wouldn't have done, they would have been appalled at anyone suggesting it.

[Laertes]

I definitely agree that prejudices are a part of humanity, and if racism goes away, then people will just find some other reason to hate everyone else, so I don't really care why they do it, as long as they don't kill people for it. And if someone tries to steal my tv because of who I am, I am going to kick their ass. If someone tries to steal my tv because they want my tv, I'm still going to kick their ass.

I don't think that's true. I mean, read popular literature from a few hundred years ago. Those people had all the same prejudices and hatreds that we have, and a bunch that we've forgotten. It's not as though 1833 rolled around and people suddenly went "oh shit, we can't own slaves any more, we'd better find someone new to persecute." The total amount of hatefulness in the world decreased.

Whether we'll ever be able to decrease that to zero is a different matter, of course.