Things I don't Like about Privateer Press, counting the ways

[angelfromanotherpin]

I personally am not a sculptor and don't have a company worth of sculptors at my beck and call. I can't make a model line. And while I could make a derivative or unique setting (and have), it doesn't really do any good without a model line, so I'm not going to do it.

-Username17

Y'know, I have a friend who runs a wargame model-painting company out of Sri Lanka. Awesomely, it is staffed by otherwise underemployed gemcutters. I'll drop him a line and see what it would take to get a small sculpting/casting operation going.

[cthulhu]

Got a link?

[angelfromanotherpin]

http://paintedfigs.com/

I've also found a company that already does custom figs on a sort of ransom system: http://eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

Whether using them would be worthwhile is a question I can't answer.

[cthulhu]

Man, that is awesome.

/me checks out some of the blood bowl stuff.

[Koumei]

http://paintedfigs.com/

I'm not actually that impressed with their highest quality example - the Space Hulk stuff actually looks really average (the store local to where I used to live did a lot better for SH).

That said, a couple of the other things looked pretty good, with blends and all. But I still need to grab a camera and take some pictures of my best stuff.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'm not actually that impressed with their highest quality example - the Space Hulk stuff actually looks really average (the store local to where I used to live did a lot better for SH).

In my admittedly limited experience, photographs never show the true quality of a paint job. I've been to contests where truly amazing work was on display, and the photos just lose so much of whatever it was that made them work.

That said, I've never used his service and can't vouch for the quality of its output.

[Koumei]

Of course if you want to cheat, there's airbrushing for incredible results:

http://thirdfatecreations.com/

Check out the gallery. You may have seen one of his works, this one, floating on the Interwebs before.

[PhoneLobster]

I think in this day and age the miniature manufacturing option to run with is 3D modeling software and a 3D printer.

The fact that games workshop stores aren't doing most of their plastic models as print on demand with custom posing and equipment applied through a 3D modelling program leaves them open to some serious competition on that front.

3D printers are getting freakishly cheap, and 3d artists and software are pretty much everywhere compared to skilled sculptors.

[Juton]

Last I heard about 3D printers, what they printed was pretty fragile, but that will probably change with time. In 5 or 10 years when 3D printing has a few more of the kinks worked out I wonder if we'll see larger hobby stores buying them, you can buy the design online or make your own then pay the hobby store to print them.

[spasheridan]

@PL-

Like I said, theory machine is awesome for analyzing small parts of the game. It falls down looking at an entire game. Where it rocks is where you can say things like:

Unit X + Spell Y + Position Z >> (many things)

SO, you take Unit X1 and Abilitiesl Y1 and attempt to achieve position Z1. When you achieve position Z you can do your awesome.

Now we can theory machine Unit X2 with Ability Y2 than can help you get to position Z, but this requires Units X1 and X2 to be in a combined position Z2.

Now, your list has 6 - 10 units in it, and 4 - 8 Abilities. Your list should have at least 3 AWESOME combos that you can use to crush your opponent, hopefully more.

The game becomes identiying the range of positions you want to achieve while denying those positions that your opponent wants to your opponent. You can also allow your opponent some of those positions if you can trade positional advantage with destroying the unit or ability that they could use to take advantage of that position.

SO - how does the burrow list work? It works by denying your opponent all of their positions. All of the synergies in their list fail because there are exactly 0 units to target with 90+% of their attacks. Can they somehow find a way to neutralize 2 of your helldivers? sure. Can they get them all? no way. This leaves you with the attackers advantage, and if you use that right you will win.

As far as the rest of your critiques... The latest steamroller format was specificlly modifed to stop Epic D from winning 2/3rds of the scenarios if you won first turn. How, exactly, does she suck?

[PhoneLobster]

All of the synergies in their list fail because there are exactly 0 units to target with 90+% of their attacks.

Again. No. Because even the incredibly basic and common synergy of "arc node+spell" doesn't fail. Ultimately with this list you do not negate "90%" or their attacks, and it doesn't matter because this list negates "100%" of your own attacks. Your only chance of winning is knocking out more points worth of targets with your pistol wraiths or nightmare before the enemy kills your pistol wraiths or Nightmare and wins on points.

And THAT does not hinge one iota off your hell divers which are essentially just 15 points of army dropped from the entire equation giving the opponent a 15 point advantage on dropping those pistol wraiths/nightmare/denny.

Your strategy with this list is the stupidest strategy ever especially the whole hilarious burrowing on feat turn fiasco you described as if you actually believed it was a smart tactic!

The latest steamroller format was specificlly modifed to stop Epic D from winning 2/3rds of the scenarios if you won first turn. How, exactly, does she suck?

I can see her functioning somewhat in the 3 turn steam roller format (because her near useless wraith form ability in a real game is significantly better in a game that only goes THREE FUCKING TURNS, even with the severe nerfing 2.0's magic weapons gave it) I mean hell she auto loses against any casters that are themselves combat machines but you know, whatever. Aside from that she has some limited mobility spells that might help her out with a completely different list including arc nodes and units instead of stupid ass hell divers but largely everything she does is over priced.

But gasp! How does she win tournaments?
A) The gamers involved are dumb
B) Her feat removes 1 turn of movement from the enemy, in a fucking 3 turn game with points scored from standing on objectives that is an auto win.
C) The gamers involved are dumb

That's it, epic denny, especially in lame steam roller tournaments where her more complex tricks are just out of the question because of time limitations, is a one trick pony, the trick is her feat, almost everything else she does is in some way either run of the mill or entirely shit, except that kick ass thing tied to her melee weapon, sadly it is tied to her melee weapon...

ANd let's remember YOUR plan was to use her in the only format where her feat is less effective for earning a win (caster kill rather than taking and holding objectives) and with a list that is crap for her (hell divers) and with a hell diver burrow strategy that effectively involves throwing away the greater part of her entire feat turn advantage!

So again, you win games against WHO exactly?

Edit: I would also like to mention that after the incredibly shit change to knock down and freeze specifically designed to stop Kreoss and Sorscha (uh, I hate Privateer Presses stupid ass name spelling) from doing exactly that same "you lose one turn and I win on points/kill you" trick... we STILL HAVE AT LEAST ONE CASTER DOING THAT. That is assuming they haven't already errata-ed Shake Effect or some other ridiculous change that doesn't address the REAL problem to "fix" that.

[spasheridan]

our strategy with this list is the stupidest strategy ever especially the whole hilarious burrowing on feat turn fiasco you described as if you actually believed it was a smart tactic!

Reading comprehension is good. I said that you feat the turn that you attack with the burrowed units. Just to help you I'll explain.

Turns 0 - X, Helldivers move and burrow. They cannot be targeted by anything. Denny camps focus and hides. SHe is Def 16 and speed 7 so if all she does is camp 6 or 7 focus then she should be able to avoid the turn or 2 that someone might be able to drop a spell or 2 on her.

Turn X - Denny pops feat. Helldivers move and attack, killing good targets. The opponent goes, and cannot move, they cannot attack you because you've killed the units you are engaging. Then the helldivers move and BURROW on turn X+1 as Denny goes incorporeal. Your opponent cannot attack you because you are off the board / incorporeal.

Turn X+2 your helldivers unburrow and ATTACK.

On your opponents turn X+2 your opponent may attack the helldivers.

Wow, 15 points of your army that is untargattble until it attacks TWICE. Totally sucks.

SO - does this mean this is THE BEST list ever? Of course not. Would it be better if it had say 2 helldivers and then some arc nodes and a bokur? Hell YES. Does that mean I still can't take THE MOST WORTHLESS UNIT and find some synergy in the game to make it a tactic that might work? Hell yes.

[PhoneLobster]

Reading comprehension is good.

Which is nice because you go on to "explain" precisely the stupid strategy I was criticizing for being stupid.

Then the helldivers move and BURROW on turn X+1 as Denny goes incorporeal.

Here. This bit. THAT is the stupid bit that is stupid.

Anything OTHER than the Hell divers take THAT turn to pick new targets, engage and kill them. Even Hell Divers if use SENSIBLY take THAT turn to pick new targets.

Having the whole army leave Dennegrah behind with nothing to save her ass bar incorporeality is NOT a smart move. Skipping a turn of fighting in a three turn steam roller game when it is already at least turn 2 or 3 when you do is ALSO not a good strategy. The ONLY way you do this is if you are ahead on points, and expect steam roller to expire before the helldivers surface or anything else in your army dies because of lack of screening.

Mind you the outwaiting the opponent while you have a points advantage is unlikely because odds are you were not the one who actually 'won' the charge contact was made by the opponent ON THEIR TERMS, because your mobility with your hell divers was ABYSMAL.

And if you pop your feat to try and give yourself the charge, which could work, you will then lose out on using it the way you wanted to.

And finally denny's feat ONLY prevents the opponent from MOVING to fight your Hell divers, your continued remarkable "CANNOT BE ATTACKED THAT TURN WOOOOH!" is ridiculous in the face of the most basic ranged weaponry and spell casting. So much so that I find myself amazed you think you have a turn of especially notable "invulnerability" at all.

I mean what is there a masochistic gentleman's agreement that no one brings anything other than slow moving melee with less than 10 inch threat range to your games? Because that is what your story is sounding like.

Edit: Mind you precisely how a caster with seven focus is even using Six jacks in a single turn in any form of efficient manner is somewhat amazing, I mean, you get the focus for your "I won the charge" round, if you somehow get that round, from where exactly?

SO - does this mean this is THE BEST list ever? Of course not. Would it be better if it had say 2 helldivers and then some arc nodes and a bokur? Hell YES.

Precisely what are the hell divers bringing to that list? I mean they brought nothing to THIS list so WTF drugs are you on?

Does that mean I still can't take THE MOST WORTHLESS UNIT and find some synergy in the game to make it a tactic that might work?

It's a question of ENOUGH synergy. And "can't be attacked, but also can't initiate any attacks" which is (at best) where your list and strategy is at, is NOT ENOUGH.

"Vastly inferior, but hey look, there is synergy inside that inferiority!" is not a defense of game balance. It's an exercise in stupid fan wankery.

[spasheridan]

PL-

Your naked aggression must be hard to contain sometimes. I read your rantlike drivel and can imagine you spitting in frustration to prove your nerlike superiorty over me. Saliva dripping from your lips and chin, flecks coating the screen of your computer as you nerd rage your eternal truth.

With your blinders on, I expect to prove exactly nothing to you. IF, in your opinion, hellldivers can never be worth taking - so be it. If, in your opinion, WM / Hordes sucks ass - so be it.

I will continue to enjoy it, and I will continue to find new ways to play the game to keep it entertaining. I'll let you know when I find a Drudge Slave list that works and you can remind me how I must be a fanboi wanker.

[PhoneLobster]

Spasheridan, this IS a rant thread, founded for the purpose of Ranting, and Privateer press is so VERY ridiculous in their rehtoric and your argument, list and tactics were so INCREDIBLY stupid.

I mean of course you aren't going to prove anything to me when you hold to such fantastical claims, even when challenged, without apparently feeling any particular need to justify or rethink your position on them.

Claims, including, but not limited to.

1) A unit with a really short threat range will allow me to encounter the enemy on MY terms!
2) On the turn I make the enemy skip a portion of their turn I will skip all of mine, thus ending up ahead by a turn worth of attacks!
3) 2.0 is better because... I HAVE BALLS!

No really. Thanks for providing us with an example of the Privateer fan base. It was very helpful for a number of my points.

[A Man In Black]

Just to help you I'll explain.

PL has two points: WM unit design is retarded, and WM tournament design is retarded. Thanks for clearly illustrating the second.

[Blasted]

I think in this day and age the miniature manufacturing option to run with is 3D modeling software and a 3D printer.

The fact that games workshop stores aren't doing most of their plastic models as print on demand with custom posing and equipment applied through a 3D modelling program leaves them open to some serious competition on that front.

3D printers are getting freakishly cheap, and 3d artists and software are pretty much everywhere compared to skilled sculptors.

I've looked into 3d printers; the cheap ones (which I could afford a year ago) had very noticeable banding where each layer was applied. Really not up to miniature quality.

I suspect Juton is right in saying that it will take 5-10 to get to reasonable quality and durability.

[MfA]

Last I heard about 3D printers, what they printed was pretty fragile

This stuff seems pretty durable :

http://www.shapeways.com/themes/stainle ... ng_gallery

Of course those printers aren't exactly affordable.

PS. not really just a printer either with the sintering and bronze infusion steps in the oven.

[Blasted]

The detail is pretty lacking, too.
*grumble, grumble*

[MfA]

If they make enough money getting higher detail shouldn't be too hard to achieve. Just a question of using higher resolution printing, finer metal powder and more layers.

[angelfromanotherpin]

In any case, I really lid Chronopia, the fantasy offering from the Swedes that used to do Mutant Chronicles. I liked the models and the clunky giant shoulder pads with gears on them aesthetic. And the rules were fairly OK.

I finally got my hands on a pdf of the rulebook for this, and I'd like to know what you like about the mechanics, because just reading through it they seem kind of clunky and uninteresting.

[Username17]

It's been over a decade since I've looked at the rules, but as I recall there were some interesting tactical choices on how to use archers (direct or volley fire essentially). Plus, the bar on fantasy miniatures games just isn't that high. Having alternate squad activation by itself makes the system better than Warhammer's "I move and shoo!"

-Username17

[zeruslord]

You're able to get decent levels of detail on 28mm models with today's hobbyist filament deposition printers if they're well tuned and the layer height math works out well - this was done on a $800 kit machine that would probably cost $1500 or so as a professional-looking turnkey product. The real problem with it today is more about reliability and maintenance than about print quality. Currently the cheap printers are pretty finicky and need daily tuning, usually have some manual steps in the process, and sometimes have things go wrong that require fairly skilled labor to repair. On top of that there's the issue of what you're actually going to print on it - it won't be started by a new IP and it's not worth the effort for a single store unless there's lots of free or licensable designs floating around.

I think it can happen, but GW or WotC or another big IP holder would need to get the ball rolling by having an in-store 3d printer program that included a specific machine, licensed designs, and probably some maintenance infrastructure. The only real compelling entry point for the technology I can see at the moment is forgeworld-like low volume high quality stuff or reopening back catalogs, but that would still start as a central mail-order thing rather than being in stores. Once there's actually 3d printers in game stores at all, it would be much easier to get other companies in, but J Random Miniatures Heartbreaker isn't going to get stores to spend a couple thousand dollars in capital startup costs, let alone hire or train a 3d printer guy.