Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I haven't found the actual link yet, but the douchebag did some pre-kickstarter feats on spec. to raise funds for an upcoming vet bill.

I mean, it certainly cost him some credibility, but I don't recall the content in question being over-the-top. At a minimum, it's more money than I've ever received for half-ass homebrew.

Thanks for helping Mr. Mostly Mittens [General]
Benefit
You get a +2 bonus on, like, whatever, man. Cats are always predisposed as Helpful towards you.

[Leress]

I haven't found the actual link yet, but the douchebag did some pre-kickstarter feats on spec. to raise funds for an upcoming vet bill.

I mean, it certainly cost him some credibility, but I don't recall the content in question being over-the-top. At a minimum, it's more money than I've ever received for half-ass homebrew.

Thanks for helping Mr. Mostly Mittens [General]
Benefit
You get a +2 bonus on, like, whatever, man. Cats are always predisposed as Helpful towards you.

Here you go:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/feats/feats.html

Hell his Armor Defense Mastery was one of those and then was placed in his supplement "The New Argonauts "

[Nirallus]

Feat of the decade right here, folks.

No, never mind, I spoke too soon.

[Maxus]

My hands twitch with the longing to cause pain.

[GnomeWorks]

Feat of the decade right here, folks.

No, never mind, I spoke too soon.

On the one hand: cool and interesting. While these both seem needlessly complicated, they do a bit of that weird stuff with magic that I'd like to see more of.

On the other: what the actual fuck were the people who wrote those smoking?

[Maxus]

NO.

NOT COOL AND NOT INTERESTING.

"Sacred geometry" and "arithmancy" are really dumb pseudo-science concepts pushed by New Age woo peddlers.

They would be fine if it was an in-character thing. They really would. If drawing Metatron's Cube or the Triforce were mentioned as something the character did draw, or even where the character did the computations in an abstract and pulled out some extra oomph.

Not players doing complex operations for a +1 to caster level or gambling to avoid a metamagic feat.

Seriously, can't you take spell focus for that? Not to mention arithmancy is totally abuseable. You could check the spells you want ahead of time and just select for spells which reduce to a low DC. They give you the operation right there. If I took that feat, I'd have all my spells worked out ahead of time.

[GnomeWorks]

NO.

NOT COOL AND NOT INTERESTING.

So sorry that my opinion offends you.

"Sacred geometry" and "arithmancy" are really dumb pseudo-science concepts pushed by New Age woo peddlers.

You're an idiot. These concepts have grounding in a number of "magical" disciplines that predate New Agers using them, and the notion of shapes, numbers, and even particular characters/symbols having some kind of intrinsic power is a really old idea.

And besides, what the fuck does it matter if they're dumb pseudoscience? They make for potentially more interesting takes on magical systems in games than the bog-standard slot and point systems D&D is so keen on.

The execution here is lacking, I will agree on that point. But I'm willing to give points for the attempt.

They would be fine if it was an in-character thing. They really would. If drawing Metatron's Cube or the Triforce were mentioned as something the character did draw, or even where the character did the computations in an abstract and pulled out some extra oomph.

So just MTP it, then? Is that your fucking point? Mechanics and flavor should be reflections of each other. You can doodle all the bullshit shapes you want, but if it has no mechanical ramifications, there's no point in doing it and it's just meaningless flavor.

In this instance, the crazy-bullshit math these feats require are meant to be reflections of the calculations the character is making. Again, the execution is lacking.

[Rawbeard]

Pseudo scientific gobbledygook in my spellcasting? HELL NO!

I like the general idea, but... the fuck, like... seriously.

[Prak]

I agree that both feats are conceptually interesting. However they are also both mechanically bullshit. I'd be ok with arithmancy if it gave a bit more, because, yeah, I'd just figure all my spells before hand too, but as it is... ugh, gimme something more than just +1 cl. On the otherhand, Sacred Geometry needs to be less... arbitrary. At the very least, it shouldn't use dice, let me use numbers I can control or at least predict, like caster level, spell level, etc, and maybe give me the option of rolling a single die if I'm not quite at the magic number I need.

[TiaC]

Sacred Geometry will result in the game completely hanging whenever used.

"So, I rolled 2, 3, 6, 1, 1, 5, 2, 3. How can I make 83, 89, or 97 with that? Give me ten minutes or so and I'll get something."

[ishy]

6*5 = 30
30 *3 = 90
90+3 + 2 + 2 + 1 - 1 =97
Took less time than actually rolling and counting the dice would have (but the example was just easy).

So just MTP it, then? Is that your fucking point? Mechanics and flavor should be reflections of each other. You can doodle all the bullshit shapes you want, but if it has no mechanical ramifications, there's no point in doing it and it's just meaningless flavor.

If the flavour is meaningless then why do you want it in the game in the first place?

[TiaC]

6*5 = 30
30 *3 = 90
90+3 + 2 + 2 + 1 - 1 =97
Took less time than actually rolling and counting the dice would have (but the example was just easy).

So just MTP it, then? Is that your fucking point? Mechanics and flavor should be reflections of each other. You can doodle all the bullshit shapes you want, but if it has no mechanical ramifications, there's no point in doing it and it's just meaningless flavor.

If the flavour is meaningless then why do you want it in the game in the first place?

I wrote that at ~4 AM, I wasn't going to do math. However, remember that many players seem unable to add up their attack bonus correctly, and when they get drunk they do even worse.

[GnomeWorks]

If the flavour is meaningless then why do you want it in the game in the first place?

Flavor is meaningless if it is not backed up, somehow, in the mechanics.

Saying "oh yeah, my guys does magic by using numbers or whatever," if there aren't mechanics to back that statement up, it doesn't even rise to the level of wrong.

These feats are supposed to be flavorful, giving a different and unusual feel to the magic used with them. While the end results are standard effects - adding metamagic, improving CL - the process is at least moderately evocative of a different take on magic.

[ishy]

If the flavour is meaningless then why do you want it in the game in the first place?

Flavor is meaningless if it is not backed up, somehow, in the mechanics.

So what mechanical effect should hair colour have?

[GnomeWorks]

So what mechanical effect should hair colour have?

Does it matter to the game? If there is a reason to give a fuck, then there should be rules for it.

If there are no rules for it, then fuck it, who cares. Make some shit up. Whether your character has black hair or red hair, it's not mechanically relevant, so just decide what you like and move the fuck on.

What about this concept is so difficult for you to understand?

[ishy]

So what mechanical effect should hair colour have?

Does it matter to the game? If there is a reason to give a fuck, then there should be rules for it.

If there are no rules for it, then fuck it, who cares. Make some shit up. Whether your character has black hair or red hair, it's not mechanically relevant, so just decide what you like and move the fuck on.

What about this concept is so difficult for you to understand?

Yes it does matter for the game. Choosing my hair colour helps me identify with characters more and can make my characters feel different, thus there is a reason to give a fuck, so you think there should be rules for it right?

[GnomeWorks]

Yes it does matter for the game.

Please point to any rules text for which hair is relevant.

As I said, if there is a rule set in which hair color matters, then yes, having mechanics for determining hair color would be important.

If it doesn't matter mechanically - and I'm willing to say that in 99% of cases, it doesn't - then it doesn't matter to the game, just your head space.

Choosing my hair colour helps me identify with characters more and can make my characters feel different, thus there is a reason to give a fuck, so you think there should be rules for it right?

You are being a disingenuous fuck.

In the original exchange in which I made that claim, the argument posed was that you could just make shit up for how your mage does their magic shit. My point was that making things up is fine, but is ultimately meaningless because it has no impact on the mechanics.

That does not mean it is not useful for other things, such as "identifying with your character" or other means of RP-based differentiation. But it is mechanically useless, and is not actually reflected in the story happening at the table: whether your mage uses numbers or words of power, magic A is still fucking magic A. Your personal fable surrounding how your mage does the magic A is irrelevant to the game, and is not reflected anywhere other than in your own head.

Everyone at the table might agree that your mage who uses numbers and someone else's mage who uses words of power are different, but if there aren't any rules governing those distinctions, then that's just MTP at that point, which - again - was my point. If you want flavor differentiations to matter, they need to be backed up mechanically.

If you disagree with this notion, then a game in which all classes are identical, all races are identical, all weapons are identical, and all effects are identical - purely mechanically speaking - should be totally fine, because you just flavor it however you like and that makes things just peachy.

[ishy]

In the original exchange in which I made that claim, the argument posed was that you could just make shit up for how your mage does their magic shit. My point was that making things up is fine, but is ultimately meaningless because it has no impact on the mechanics.

That does not mean it is not useful for other things, such as "identifying with your character" or other means of RP-based differentiation. But it is mechanically useless, and is not actually reflected in the story happening at the table: whether your mage uses numbers or words of power, magic A is still fucking magic A. Your personal fable surrounding how your mage does the magic A is irrelevant to the game, and is not reflected anywhere other than in your own head.

Everyone at the table might agree that your mage who uses numbers and someone else's mage who uses words of power are different, but if there aren't any rules governing those distinctions, then that's just MTP at that point, which - again - was my point. If you want flavor differentiations to matter, they need to be backed up mechanically.

If it is useful for other things than it is not meaningless.
And it might have impact in the story. There might just be a wizard war going on between the two wizard factions (those who use numerology and those who don't).

I strongly object to the claim that anything which does not have mechanical rules attached does not matter while playing a TTRPG.

[deaddmwalking]

As a way to teach mathematical concepts, it isn't too bad. And it's not a stretch to point out that gamers have indicated that gaming has increased their vocabulary and facility with simple arithmetic. That said, these feats would use player skill to reward character.

A player could create a 'mathematical whiz' wizard character, but is then unable to quickly calculate solutions to the problems they need. The fact that they will have to refer to the table for each spell level is also a pain.

The fact that it will take a long time to resolve is the major issue - not the flavor of the ability. Worse - for some people it might not BE an issue, but if you allow someone to select it and then discover it bogs down play too much, well, that's the wrong time to deal with it.

[Covent]

I seriously weep for Pathfinder at this point.

Sacred geometry is just... "HELL NO"

Arithmancy is over complicated and stupid for just a +1 caster level.

Both of these feats will result in table slowdown, especially at higher levels.

"Hey Guys, one sec I need my Dazing Quickened(Magical Lineage) Fireball along with my Maximized Dazing Fireball, Both using lvl 3 spell slots of course. Just let me roll 20d6 twice and do some math..."

*10 minutes later*

"Ok, Yeah! Ready to do saving throws and roll damage!"

"DERRRPPPPPP!!!"

Two free metamagic feats + table slow down + not upping spell slot = No!

Whoever wrote this should never ever write for an RPG company again.

I try to be nice usually, about people's writing, but this is just stupid.

[momothefiddler]

Wow. I once had a whole card game that was the mechanics behind Sacred Geometry (Found it - it's Krypto), though the targets weren't necessarily primes. It was one of my favorite games ever. It was also way too big to be a minigame that one person plays while everyone else sits around and watches, and the idea of having the character's social success depend on the player's social skill already annoys me to the point that suggesting the character's magical success should (even optionally, since it's a feat) depend on the player's mathematical skill is just disgusting.

To the people saying they'd calculate the "digital root" of all their spells beforehand for Arithmancy: thank you. The fact that you know there are obvious spells to use it on (Mage Armor=1) and to never use it on (Knock=9) is trivial compared to the fact that you will never be finding the "digital root" of Protection From Arrows, Communal at the table while we all fall asleep.

[ishy]

my Maximized Dazing Fireball,

Just let me roll 20d6 twice

Why are you rolling 20d6 for a maximized spell?

[momothefiddler]

my Maximized Dazing Fireball,

Just let me roll 20d6 twice

Why are you rolling 20d6 for a maximized spell?

20 ranks in Know(Engi) means 20d6 just to see if each spell can have the metamagic.

[animea90]

Wow. I once had a whole card game that was the mechanics behind Sacred Geometry (Found it - it's Krypto), though the targets weren't necessarily primes. It was one of my favorite games ever. It was also way too big to be a minigame that one person plays while everyone else sits around and watches, and the idea of having the character's social success depend on the player's social skill already annoys me to the point that suggesting the character's magical success should (even optionally, since it's a feat) depend on the player's mathematical skill is just disgusting.

To the people saying they'd calculate the "digital root" of all their spells beforehand for Arithmancy: thank you. The fact that you know there are obvious spells to use it on (Mage Armor=1) and to never use it on (Knock=9) is trivial compared to the fact that you will never be finding the "digital root" of Protection From Arrows, Communal at the table while we all fall asleep.

No need to do it by hand. I would just write a script to calculate for me.

[MfA]

How did Sacred Geometry get published? Did we misjudge SKR and was he actually the force keeping Paizo from descending into total shit and insanity?