Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

[animea90]

what the fuck? really?

He did an entire article on why Favored Enemy isn't a good ability, but then decided to include it in 4e anyway.

My guess is that the marketing guys and the game design guys can't agree on what to include in the game. Marketing guy says "We need Favored Enemy to attract ranger players of earlier editions" while balance guys say "Favored Enemy is a poorly designed ability", so they split the difference by keeping it in and completely changing it.

http://mearls.livejournal.com/80639.html

[nockermensch]

So you're set, as long as you drum on your shield, or have a swordflute?

ahem.

[momothefiddler]

God, I bet that thing sounds tinny as hell and generally awful.

But you'd need another hand to pluck/bow it anyway, so you couldn't have a shield.

[Voss]

what the fuck? really?

Oh, yeah. The alpha version of the ranger overall looked pretty bad as a class, even when just compared to its immediate analog, the paladin. The spells are generally weaker (or almost useless), and has nowhere near the damage potential, healing ability or support abilities (bonus to saves, resistance to magic) that the paladin can pick up. Now there may well be some tweaks to the final version (I've caught some whispers that divine favor got smacked with a nerfbat, from +1d8 on every hit to +1d4 on every hit), but overall the ranger doesn't seem to offer much to the party

[Rawbeard]

you can use him as food supply, I guess.

[CapnTthePirateG]

He did an entire article on why Favored Enemy isn't a good ability, but then decided to include it in 4e anyway.

My guess is that the marketing guys and the game design guys can't agree on what to include in the game. Marketing guy says "We need Favored Enemy to attract ranger players of earlier editions" while balance guys say "Favored Enemy is a poorly designed ability", so they split the difference by keeping it in and completely changing it.

http://mearls.livejournal.com/80639.html

The best part of the article is where he says Mother May I abilities are bad...and makes every other ability and the skill system Mother May I.

[Voss]

you can use him as food supply, I guess.

Bah. Survival checks will handle food, and clerics/druids will be at least as good at that, and bards and rogues can be twice as good.

[Wiseman]

He did an entire article on why Favored Enemy isn't a good ability, but then decided to include it in 4e anyway.

My guess is that the marketing guys and the game design guys can't agree on what to include in the game. Marketing guy says "We need Favored Enemy to attract ranger players of earlier editions" while balance guys say "Favored Enemy is a poorly designed ability", so they split the difference by keeping it in and completely changing it.

http://mearls.livejournal.com/80639.html

The best part of the article is where he says Mother May I abilities are bad...and makes every other ability and the skill system Mother May I.

This article was covered in another thread, where the explanation was that Mearls' was really good at avoiding being fired, and one of the ways he does that is to just agree with whatever the current attitude was.

[Voss]

So, here's a stupid thing, I caught in passing while browsing some threads: They've obligated themselves to do write-ups of moderns and flumphs, as they're both accidentally summonable on the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Wild Magic table.


For Fuck's Sake. Some of the stupidest monsters ever get to take up book space.

[Wiseman]

Modrons are pretty cool concept wise (at least the planescape versions). Flumph's not so much.

Also, I notice that they add another bonus to ac there which is probably a bad idea.

[animea90]

Modrons are pretty cool concept wise (at least the planescape versions). Flumph's not so much.

Also, I notice that they add another bonus to ac there which is probably a bad idea.

After PLanescape Torment I have loved Modrons and wish there were more of them in games.

[Lago PARANOIA]

EDIT: Removed for being overly catty.

[Voss]

Taste are tastes. Logic dice entities just strike me as inherently stupid.

[Wiseman]

They were given different appearances in planescape that make them pretty bizarre.

[Voss]

That isn't Planescape art. The Paizo copyright should be a subtle clue.

[virgil]

Two of the pictures were made by people with Paizo, the rest is during Planescape's run; and those pictures are obvilously just colorized versions of the standard Planescape fare

[nockermensch]

That isn't Planescape art. The Paizo copyright should be a subtle clue.

Those pictures were obviously done by a medium channelling the spirit of Tony DiTerlizzi, which is worrying because the guy isn't even dead yet.

[Pixels]

Taste are tastes. Logic dice entities just strike me as inherently stupid.

Goofy robots are certainly not for every campaign. For the less serious campaigns though, a little cube 'droid who organizes your bag of holding and pops out to declare that people are being illogical can be a nice touch.

[animea90]

Taste are tastes. Logic dice entities just strike me as inherently stupid.

Goofy robots are certainly not for every campaign. For the less serious campaigns though, a little cube 'droid who organizes your bag of holding and pops out to declare that people are being illogical can be a nice touch.

Yep. I loved Nordom's commentary and would love to have one in my party for a tabletop campaign.

[Voss]

So they stuck the supplementary online material for the first dragon hoard adventure thing up.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads ... ement1.pdf


It has magic items and monsters. It does note work in progress and not final (for the items at least), which is probably a good thing, since the wording on Bracers of Armor makes it a no-brainer must have item for monks, barbarians and people who use mage armor, since as written it stacks with such ACs. Unlike those abilities which set AC to a sum (13+dex or 10+dex+con or wis), it just adds +3 if you aren't wearing armor or shields. So a Monk or Barbarian can rock out with a 19 (better than plate mail) to 23 AC (much better than plate and shield) depending on how they raise their stats.

The adult dragons (blue and white) are... puzzling.
Here is previn's summary of the young green from the starter set, earlier in this thread:

• Young Green Dragon, flees if reduced to half HP. For those not in the know, the young green half dragon is AC 18, 136 HP, makes 3 attacks (+15/+11/+11) for 2d10+2d6+4 damage and 2d6+4 twice. Oh, and it has a 30' cone breath weapon that recharges on a 5 or 6 that deals 12d6 poison damage, save for half. Did I mention the 60' fly speed and 120' darkvision? Because it also happens to be in a good location and is in no way appropriate for a 3rd level party to face even with the caveat of running away at half HP.

The Adult Blue has AC 19, 225 hp, 3 attacks on its multi attack : +12 (2d10+7), and 2 claws for +12 (2d6+7);

It also has a tail attack which can only be used through its 'legendary actions' of which it can make 3, 1 at a time at the end of other creature's turns. the pool of 3 legendary actions recharges each turn. Tail attack is one option, 'detect' (a perception check) is another, and wing attack (which takes 2 actions) is the third- all within 10' save vs damage 2d6+7 and prone
and it flies half its speed

Breath weapon is a DC 19, and 12d10 (average 66), and has a DC 17 frightful presence, which is also used during multi attack.

It can also just auto-succeed at 3 saving throws per day.

The white is unsurprisingly slightly weaker. 18 AC, 200 hp +11 to hit, and only +6 on its damage rolls.

So, just comparing to the young green, it looks like stats either got toned down somewhat, or adult dragon numbers just don't change much at all.
The Blue is CR 16 (15000 xp), and the White is CR 13 (10000 xp). So basically they auto-tank a few saves and generally dick around with bonus not-their turn actions, then fall to save or lose spells. I'm actually not all that impressed if they're actually used at the listed challenge level.


All sorts of other random critters are in here too:

Gargoyles (CR 2, 450xp, 52 hp, resistance to nonmagical weapons.
Giant Frog (CR 1/4) with its overly complex 1e Swallow mechanic.
Giant Spiders, Giant Lizards, Ettercaps. Griffons

Several PC as monster write-ups. Knights, Assassins,
A Mage (9th caster level), which is CR6. Which is probably one of the roughest encounters in the whole set. Greater Invisibility, misty step, fly, fireball, ice storm and cone of cold. (Plus MM, mage armor, shield). So it goes invisible, then flies away and bombards the party. Fuck you guys. Though greater invisibility and fly may both be concentration and not stack. Still. Greater invis and attack spells are bad for parties. Add in some cantrips and bonus action teleporting for invisibility fuckery.

Lizardfolk are boring.

Otyughs are CR 5, and have 114 hp, and multi attack at +6 (bite and 2 tentacles).

Orcs. Hp 15, AC 13, CR 1/2 (100xp) greataxe: +5 1d12+3, or javelin.
Has aggressive as a trait: bonus action can move its speed toward a hostile creature. So orcs move 60' per round and attack. Because reasons.

Perytons are in, which is surprising (but I'll give a pass since they're randomly my favorite critter). Resistant to nonmagical weapons (thanks Roman myths) and a dive attack and flyby attack. Rather annoying to fight.

Ropers. One of the highest Acs I've seen on 5e monsters (AC 20). 93 hp.
CR 5, 4 50' reach tendril attacks +7 and grapple, but the multi attack is 4 tendrils (which grapple), Reel (which pulls creatures 25' toward it) and bites. +7 for 4d8+4.

Stone giants, club, rocks, 126 hp. Meh.

Trolls! CR 5. multiattack: bite (+7, 1d6+4) and 2 claws (+7, 2d6+4), regains 10 hp at the start of its turn, unless it was hit by acid or fire before the start of its turn. Only dies if it is at 0 hp and can't regen. Various cantrips make this trivial.


Vampire is a full goddamn page. CR 13. 144 HP, 16 AC. Legendary actions like the dragons. And legendary resistance too (the auto-save thing, 3/day). Its a goddamn page, though, so I'm not summarizing. Regen 20 is excessive, bite reduces HP maximum (by 3d6 in this case) which is the new level drain. Last until a long rest, which... well. It changes vampire stories, a lot, as the vamp just chews people to death to make new vampires, but it has to kill them with the +3d6 necrotic damage and not the bite damage (1d6+4), since that doesn't raise new vampires. Sigh. Has weaknesses and mistform and an summon, crap and shapeshift into a bat or mist. Oh and charm.

Will o Wisps are kind of cool. They sort of wander around and can shock people, but they're more fun if they're just lurking and start forcing dying people to make saving throws or die, which heals the wisp.

Basically the solution to hard monsters is bonus actions when it isn't their turn and the ability to just shrug off the first couple spells. Other than that, mostly bags of hp and some predictable attacks. Spellcasting monsters, on the other hand....


Finally, it has various spells that are referenced in the adventure but aren't in the basic rules. (But are in the PH). Several changed from the alpha versions.

[Voss]

Right, so the design of these monsters is pants on head crazy.
The all get stat+proficiency bonus the same way characters do (except for the CR8 assassin, which gets a +4 when it should get a +3, which is either a typo or just fucked up if the bonus charts go out of sync after 8 levels). Its notable that the proficiency bonus is based on CR, and not on hit dice, which are apparently assigned by feel or randomly, because the HP of similar CR creatures vary wildly. Often by 20-30%, but sometimes by absurd amounts, like 22 hp vs 4 hp. Or 80 to 126.

But the big factor is that the proficiency bonus largely doesn't matter at low levels, because the stat bonus is more important, and isn't assigned by design logic, but the 'feel' of the creature. The CR 1/8 kobold gets a +4 to hit (and 1d4+2 damage), because it uses a dagger, and therefor dex. And gets advantage, because kobolds have pack tactics for reasons, so getting mobbed by kobolds is often a death sentence at level 1, and at CR 1/8, they are literally designed to mob you.

Other low CR creatures get multi-attack for literally no reason at all, like the scout (CR 1/2), who could use the TWF rules but doesn't, and randomly gets multiple longbow shots as well. The bullywug at CR 1/4 also gets two attacks. They're pretty poor attacks, but a 'standard' encounter would be 8 bullywugs, or 16 attacks every round. They also have 11 hp, the same as the CR 1/2 hobgoblin, so I don't even know. Troglodytes are also CR 1/4, but have a higher to hit with their 2 attacks, higher hp and its stench ability which is DC 12 or be poisoned. I had to look this up to find out that 'being poisoned' means disadvantage on attacks and ability checks.

They're both ambush multi-attackers that come in packs, but the difference in stats and abilities apparently amounts to nothing, which is reassuring that the encounter system is utterly worthless.

The wyvern is an interesting critter at CR 6, because it can drop a lot of level appropriate characters in a single round. Not anywhere guaranteed with 2 attack rolls and a poison save, but against a level 6 cleric with 14 con (hp:10+7 [average]*5 = 45) it can manage claw (13) + tail (11) + poison (24) [48], and flies in from 80' away to do so.


On another note, 5e fanatics definitely need a nickname soon, as they're already rabid. Poking about in other forums, I've seen threads about breaking the game get shouted down by people insisting the OP is a horrible person for even thinking about it, and 5e is a 'refuge' from that sort of thing, and a frank discussion about the ranger getting derailed entirely on the principle that one anecdote from a single game 'proves' that objective analysis of the rangers spells and abilities is a worthless approach. Admittedly this is coming on the heels of the observation that the ranger looks like the most worthless class in the book, because the spells are crap, the abilities lack luster and it loses out on the defense and offense of the fighter.

[angelfromanotherpin]

On another note, 5e fanatics definitely need a nickname soon, as they're already rabid.

We had that discussion before and I think 'the 5mind' was the most promising. 5ucker is also pretty good.

[OgreBattle]

5rognard, 5 looks like an upside down 'g'

[Lago PARANOIA]

Can I just mention that I absolutely hate the autosave mechanic in 5E D&D?

Now, I have no problem with the idea of sacking some kind of resource in order to help against saves. In fact, I think it's a great idea if done right. Imagine if certain or even every creature had the option of decreasing its hit points in order to get a one-time save bonus. And then imagine if decreasing your hit points caused your ability to make saves go down. That instantly solves two of the biggest complaints about D&D combat: that direct damage dealers and SoDs don't play together well and that SoDs are anticlimatic and turn the game into rocket-launcher tag.

But as it is, the autosaves break versimilitude while also not making combat more tactically interesting. A lone SoDer feels short in the pants compared to a DD against these foes, but a pair of SoDers don't give a flying fuck. It's like they're spitting on the idea of a diverse party. Fuck that shit.

[CapnTthePirateG]

So do evocation spells do damage you actually care about? Because all that's gonna happen are that SoDers are just gonna use nuke spells and go right back to SoDs against nonlegendary characters.

Naturally PCs will never be able to acquire this sort of protection so they can be instagibbed by the medusa as that is an important part of feeling like D&D.