Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

malak · Post by **malak** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:44 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I... I did it.

I preordered the 5E D&D PHB through Amazon. It comes by in a week. I didn't mean to! I just saw it available for only 60% of its list price and I couldn't resist. My butthurt levels were running dangerously low, to boot!

I'm so ashamed of myself.

I'm pretty sure you are not the only one on this board who committed that particular sin.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:18 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I... I did it.

I preordered the 5E D&D PHB through Amazon. It comes by in a week. I didn't mean to! I just saw it available for only 60% of its list price and I couldn't resist. My butthurt levels were running dangerously low, to boot!

I'm so ashamed of myself.

I made that will save (or is it an Int save now?).

D&D is like Windows (or Dwarf Fortress) for me now. I assume the new version will ship full of experience ruining bugs, so I wait for a more stable release or service pack before getting it.

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:53 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I... I did it.

I preordered the 5E D&D PHB through Amazon. It comes by in a week. I didn't mean to! I just saw it available for only 60% of its list price and I couldn't resist. My butthurt levels were running dangerously low, to boot!

I'm so ashamed of myself.

All three books still show as being thirty quid each to me (less pennies)

[edit] So I look at amazon.com and the PHB is 30 dollars. And all three 98 dollars. Sigh.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:56 pm

They put up the tarrasque.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.ph ... -pJAWK9KSM

CR 30, which.. Yeah. It is fairly boring, just a claw claw bite machine that reflects magic missile, line effects and attack roll spells, though it is generally vulnerable to reflex saves (advantage, but +0).

The catch is it shows off how stupid the legendary actions are. A second level wood elf rogue (35' speed) can kite it forever with the free dash action, but only if he is alone. If other party members are around, the big T can get free 20' move actions at the ends of their turns, and run the rogue down.

Thoough of course, the real strategy to the tarrasque is 'be 5th level and cast fly'. You'll work your way through the 676 hp eventually, though you'll probably need to cast fly a couple times.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm

-0 Reflex, can't fly, its biggest DC is 20 grapple/17 Will F rightful Presence, what am I missing? If you have flight and bows you can kite this down at about level 10' right?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:43 pm

Earlier, as long as you can get multiple sources of flight. it will take a long fucking time, but basically the thing is worthless unless you are trapped in a room that is about 60x60 with a 20 foot ceiling. And then the DM is just being a dick.

It is inconvenient in that it will do significant damage to buildings and maybe gobble a few people, but it has no answer to anything it can't reach, whether that is mid level adventurers, some guards riding griffins, or a squad of aarockora or avariel.

animea90 · Post by **animea90** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:14 pm

Voss wrote:They put up the tarrasque.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.ph ... -pJAWK9KSM

CR 30, which.. Yeah. It is fairly boring, just a claw claw bite machine that reflects magic missile, line effects and attack roll spells, though it is generally vulnerable to reflex saves (advantage, but +0).

The catch is it shows off how stupid the legendary actions are. A second level wood elf rogue (35' speed) can kite it forever with the free dash action, but only if he is alone. If other party members are around, the big T can get free 20' move actions at the ends of their turns, and run the rogue down.

Thoough of course, the real strategy to the tarrasque is 'be 5th level and cast fly'. You'll work your way through the 676 hp eventually, though you'll probably need to cast fly a couple times.

What are the improvised thrown weapon rules like? It could throw boulders at you.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I... I did it.

I preordered the 5E D&D PHB through Amazon. It comes by in a week. I didn't mean to! I just saw it available for only 60% of its list price and I couldn't resist. My butthurt levels were running dangerously low, to boot!

I'm so ashamed of myself.

Your sacrifice will be remembered.

Voss wrote:They put up the tarrasque.

The Big T is so badass, it has d20 as hit dice. I bet there are clear rules how that happens.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:21 pm

animea90 wrote:
Voss wrote:They put up the tarrasque.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.ph ... -pJAWK9KSM

CR 30, which.. Yeah. It is fairly boring, just a claw claw bite machine that reflects magic missile, line effects and attack roll spells, though it is generally vulnerable to reflex saves (advantage, but +0).

The catch is it shows off how stupid the legendary actions are. A second level wood elf rogue (35' speed) can kite it forever with the free dash action, but only if he is alone. If other party members are around, the big T can get free 20' move actions at the ends of their turns, and run the rogue down.

Thoough of course, the real strategy to the tarrasque is 'be 5th level and cast fly'. You'll work your way through the 676 hp eventually, though you'll probably need to cast fly a couple times.
What are the improvised thrown weapon rules like? It could throw boulders at you.

No idea, for players they are non proficient weapons (no proficiency bonus) that deal 1d4 and have a range of 20/60. the second ranged bracket inflicts disadvantage.
A stone giant's rock throwing is a special rule in its monster entry, so doesn't tell you much about how improvised boulders might work.

But anyway, the legendary of legendaries reduced to chucking rocks to be even vaguely effective is kind of sad. With a 3 int, rock throwing is pretty debatable anyway. It was never a good monster, frankly, but it is explicitly a bad write up as a challenge for any PCs, and a showcase for the flaws of the legendary action mechanic. Having more people is actually worse, unless it is so many people that it doesn't matter at all.

You might not save the town, but saving the people is actually trivially easy, and killing it is merely tedious. Which interestingly, is how I feel about mmo 'world bosses' . Stand where it can't reach and spam shit = win

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:31 pm

Well it's not like this is new to the Tarrasque. It's never been a real threat - it's just hard to kill. You've always been able to kite it with flight and a bow, AFAIK.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:42 pm

They finally released the updated Basic Rules, including content from the DMG and MM:

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads ... iendly.pdf

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads ... iendly.pdf

A quick spot check shows they added at least one cantrip for the Wizard and Cleric that benefits from their half-damage-even-on-a-successful-save features. They also added Factions and Gods of the Multiverse from the PHB and Encounters guides.

The DM's packet includes 44 pages of monsters (starting off with Adult Red Dragon), a couple pages of NPCs, the Encounter Guide, and then 2 pages of Magic Items.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:16 pm

Factions are puzzling. Far too world specific to be taking up page count in the PH.

The monster section is horribly light on explanation. So there are a shitload of creature types. So the fuck what? Do they have any real effect? Oh. And hit dice is by size. So a sort of real world logic that is entirely disconnected from the mechanics. Fantastic.

What the fuck is wrong with this CR system. Compare the cyclops to the frost giant. One is cr 6 and the other is cr 8. Same hp, 1 point of AC, a better weapon (+6 damage) , cold immunity and saving throws ( for whatever unexplained reason it has save bonuses and cyclops doesn't) and that makes for a 2 CR difference? Seriously. What process arrives at this output?

Huh. The young green dragon got bludgeoned by the nerf bat. Way down to +7 to hit at CR 8.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:18 pm

"eeeeh, this feels about right" or "Well, Mike threw us up against some frost giants when we were level 8 so..."

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:24 pm

How could it feel right? Most of the time, you won't even notice anything but the cold immunity.

Also amulets of health all around! More common than potions of flying, the amulet (and other items like it) lets you shit all over any sort of vulnerability stats might inflict on your character

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:47 pm

Voss wrote:Huh. The young green dragon got bludgeoned by the nerf bat. Way down to +7 to hit at CR 8.

Mike Mearls and friends' takeaway from 4th Edition D&D is that if you're going to have a fucked up system, it's better to have it be too easy than too hard. See: Skill Challenge system and what they attempted to do with the monster system.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:48 pm

There are many things I don't get about the factions. First off, they are Forgotten Realms specific, but they don't seem recognizable from any Forgotten Realms I'm aware of. Since when are the fucking Zhentarim a faction of brooding 1990s dark heroes? They are the primary antagonists in a very large body of FR stuff. They are not a faction of heroic world savers with snazzy black cloaks who have gruff voices and talk big about the value of gold.

And secondly... what the fuck? I couldn't actually find anything in there about what being a member of the factions is supposed to do. I understand that if I write down Harper I can be summoned with Blue Mana, while if I write down Lord's Alliance I can be summoned with Red Mana. That shit was obvious before I even realized that the faction symbols were color coded. But... what does that do? I don't see any mechanics, and the fluff is too vague and contradictory to really build anything off of.

Apparently being a member of the Emerald Enclave teaches you wilderness survival somehow, but while you'd think that this would therefore mean that people should join the Emerald Enclave iff they are not a Ranger or Druid - there does not appear to be any meat to the survival skills teaching thing. Where the fuck are the game mechanics? If they actually write the mechanics the faction descriptions imply, I'm pretty sure that the classes they suggest for each faction will be dead fucking wrong from a min/max standpoint - but until they actually admit what the mechanics actually are it's all just speculation.

-Username17

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:08 pm

From the August the 1st, Adventure League's player guide.
Factions provide resses to low level adventurers for the cost of all XP and rewards from that session.

And you can progress through the ranks, unlocking stuff.
Rank 1: you can participate in faction specific activities.
Rank 2: secret misions.
And you can be apprenticed to a higher-ranked faction member (rules to be released later)
Rank 3: faction specific downtime activities with rewards (rules to be released later)
Rank 4: Become a mentor (rules to be released later)
Rank 4: Faction leader (rules to be released when high-level play becomes available)

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:45 pm

Of all things to emulate, why the fuck are they bringing MMO guilds to D&D?

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:01 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: I'm pretty sure that the classes they suggest for each faction will be dead fucking wrong from a min/max standpoint -

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this may actually be intended as a feature. Because "rollplay-vs-roleplay", or some bullshit.
Remember their consultant team.

nockermensch wrote: Of all things to emulate, why the fuck are they bringing MMO guilds to D&D?

I'm sure it is an attempt to force people to care about being immersed in the setting*.

* and by "the setting", I don't necessarily mean a particular setting; just meant in general terms.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:10 pm

nockermensch wrote:Of all things to emulate, why the fuck are they bringing MMO guilds to D&D?

Because they didn't learn their lesson last time?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:40 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Since when are the fucking Zhentarim a faction of brooding 1990s dark heroes?

-Username17

Wait, wait, wut? I've never even cracked open a FR source book before and even I know that on the morality scale the nicest low level Zhentarim are merchants who top out at "Like the Ferengi, but worse" while the guys in charge were some wizard with his own Doombots and a bunch of clerics of Bane with cuddly names like Darkhope and Chernobyl Fzoul Chembryl. Again, I'm not even a FR fan boy, I'm just some asshole who bought a couple issues of Dragon in the '90s and can use google.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:00 am

Yep. And they got worse over time, as the Time of Troubles blowout made them Cyric worshippers (insane murder sprees) rather than Bane worshippers (power and tyranny).

The Lord's Alliance was also around, but, well, it was an alliance between the Lords of Waterdeep and the leadership of some of the neighboring towns that basically promised they wouldn't fuck each other in the ass (except in trade deals) and would kinda-sorta support each other if another bunch of howling barbarians or orcs came screaming out of the mountains.

Encounter shenanigans (I feel like I should start a series on this):

An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17, 18,000) is roughly the same threat as
10 werewolves (CR 3, 700*10*2.5[bodies multiplier]= 17,500)

S'right. 10 dudes with 58 hp and 12 AC that attack twice at +4 for 6 or 7 points of damage are roughly equal to an AC 19 256 hp flying monstrosity that does area effect damage, bonuses to every save category, has +14 to hit (for an average of 17 per hit), causes fear and gets 3 extra attacks per round (or an attack and a small area attack and move) and can just say fuck you to multiple spells.

The werewolf problem can be cleared out with a few area spells, while the dragon fight can slog on for ages or eat several more spells just to get it to the point that spells actually matter. Keep in mind neither fight should be happening until around 15th or 16th level based on the encounter math, which means shit like Earthquake, Power Word Stun or Dominate Monster is totally in play.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:11 am

The Tarrasque is like the perfect poster child for how having CR and Experience be divorced from each other could be used for something interesting. It's obviously a CR 5 creature, because any party of level 5 characters should be able to figure out how to defeat it. But it's also clearly worth a lot of experience, because it's a gigantic monster with buckets of numbers, and if included in a high-level encounter with allies that actually help it deal with high-level techniques, it's no pushover.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:32 pm

The XP system is all over the place.

Like, the number of fights per level runs ...
6, 6, 10, 14, 17, 16, 15, 15, 13, 14, 8, 10, 8, 9, 9, 8, 9, 8, 9.

If you use single monsters of the same level (which is a medium or hard fight at random). The charts are all over the place for the designed encounters, but numbers of monsters mean you add a fuck-ton of fights.

The encounters with extra monsters I noticed DO NOT GIVE BONUS XP TO PCs. It's just for determining encounter "strength". Which really means the patience of the PCs in knocking the fucking thing over.

So the limits on goblins meaning you've got to be high level to fight any real number of them, that doesn't even let them be worth more than a few hundred XP, it just says you shouldn't ever do that the party, because it's annoying. Only they use the word "deadly".

That's probably not a bad rule. Dear 5e players, ignore everything that isn't a solo, it's a waste of time gives low XP. I guess with boss fights at the end of each level, it makes it worth plugging on to actually get something worthwhile. Interesting.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:48 pm

I flipped through a few pages of it at the local gaming store, and I couldn't help but notice that there wasn't a skill system; there were notes that you get your proficiency bonus on ability checks, and that making the DC (completely out of the DM's arse) higher makes the task more difficult. I guess this must be old news, but seeing it in living ink makes it more real.

From what I could tell in that short time, there was no such thing as Base Attack Bonus, you just make an ability check against their AC and use your proficiency bonus if you know how to use the weapon; which goes up by a whole 3 points over 15 levels. I still don't know how PCs get proficient with saving throws or whatever.