Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:06 pm

When you use something like Mob Mind on a group, do you only maintain control of the victims if they stay within the spell's area (can't be more than Force metres from each other), or is that only for application and you can have them move far and wide under your command once control is established? The answer to this question sets up precedence for something like a Mass Increased Reflexes spell to buff the entire party with one spell.

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:00 pm

At my table I'd rule that mob mind can only control the victims as long as they stay within the same area, but that the area can be moved within LOS as long as the caster sustains the spell.

I might have ruled even less restrictively if you hadn't helpfully mentioned the precedent: neither mob mind nor increase reflexes need increases in power in my estimation. I once allowed a player in my games to maintain control over people who fell out of their LOS because it helped wrap up a scene and it was a late night, but generally I'm in favor of slapping as many limitations on both of those spells as possible.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:03 pm

Cochise wrote:I love such binary thinking

Look, some things are in fact binary. For example: the way Mana Static works. That's been exhaustively debated and the exact canonical nature of it has been resolved. I was part of the team that did Street Magic and was there for that discussion. Unlike most other spells, Mana Static did cause a meeting of authors and Shadowrun scholars and get a final answer. The answer in this case really is that I am right and you are wrong. That is the end of it. You doubtlessly don't like the fact that your ideas are simply binarily not correct, but that is tough shit.

There are lots of things in Shadowrun that are debatable or unclear. There are things that were written up by one freelancer and then forgotten about and never followed up upon. There are things that were written up over the objections of other writers who didn't get final pass on the section. There are things that were written up where in hindsight even the author of the piece admits that it was a mistake (Bloodzilla and the Ghoul Apocalypse, for example). And you know what? Mana Static is not one of those things. It is something that was in fact extensively debated and a consensus reached and the consensus is that you are wrong and I am right because I am telling you what the consensus is and was.

Cochise wrote:As said: I would certainly agree with you and what you consider "canon" if the spell actually created a "condition" that in turn created background count.

Every spell creates a condition that creates an effect. All of them, without exception. Each tradition has their own conception of how and why they manipulate mana to do whatever it is that they do to get the effect they want, but that's what they are all doing. Shadowrun spell descriptions always skip to the end because it's shorter that way and also because to do otherwise wouldn't be tradition-neutral. You're holding Mana Static to a standard that no other spell would rise to because none of the spells walk you through the steps of how they go from spell formula to spell effect.

But there are a lot of intermediate steps. Remember that the Mana Static spell formula is like a carved walrus that looks sad or something.

Cochise wrote:I'd go with the Slow spell from WAR! but I guess you wouldn't agree with me on that one either.

Slow is a different problem entirely. The thing it does (subtracting momentum) is something that spells can obviously do. You have Fling and you have Bullet Barrier, and that means that you can obviously change the momentum of objects and that you can stop bullets in mid-air when they enter the area of an ongoing effect. You probably thought you had some kind of lame gotcha involving the restriction on affecting the spacetime continuum, but you don't.

Slow is bullshit because the mechanical representation is bullshit. Bullet Barrier fucking exists and shows how good spells are at stopping fast moving bullets when they are designed for that purpose (not actually very good, as it happens), so having a spell go from zero to "I Win" against any number of bullets of any speed with one net hit is totally out of line with what spell numbers look like in the game. It's not that you couldn't make a spell that did what Slow does to the bullets flying out of a heavy machine gun, it's that you couldn't make a spell that did that at Force 3.

-Username17

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:28 am

pragma wrote:At my table I'd rule...

I am honestly not trying to offend, but I'd rather know the actual rules; not your obviously contextually-derived house ruling.

EDIT: Doing some condensing.

What goes into making an activesoft? Do they get an extreme expert in the skill to have a simrig installed and then heavily record them using the skill for a couple hours? A couple weeks? A couple dozen rating 4 guys for weeks? Does it then require a thousands of man-hours to process the data for a usable skillsoft, or is there an app for that?

How much of you can you take with you when you astrally project? You seem to retain mental benefits from drugs when you project, but what about the effects of skillwires? I know you can you take the astral form of weapon foci with you when you project; but is there a problem with technologically advanced weapon foci such as a chainsaw, vibrosword, or even a grapple hand with shock gloves?

This question is for house rule purposes. Is it feasible (aka, not grossly OP) to have a variant Super Squirt that shoots white phosphorous at people, dealing damage as per the grenade but only to the one person instead of an area?

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:30 am

No problem. I haven't seen rules actually specify that specific behavior of mob mind. Happy to withhold guesses going forward.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:27 am

virgil wrote: What goes into making an activesoft? Do they get an extreme expert in the skill to have a simrig installed and then heavily record them using the skill for a couple hours? A couple weeks? A couple dozen rating 4 guys for weeks? Does it then require a thousands of man-hours to process the data for a usable skillsoft, or is there an app for that?

I'm not sure that has ever been detailed. I'd say it's part recording, part programming, and seeing the cost of Activesofts, that's probably not cheap to do.

virgil wrote: How much of you can you take with you when you astrally project? You seem to retain mental benefits from drugs when you project, but what about the effects of skillwires? I know you can you take the astral form of weapon foci with you when you project; but is there a problem with technologically advanced weapon foci such as a chainsaw, vibrosword, or even a grapple hand with shock gloves?

Cyberware is bought with Essence, so you keep them in astral. The technological part fo the weapon doesn't carry in the astral, though. In the astral, your vibrosword is just a sword. I remember reading this somewhere, but I don't remember where.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:43 pm

Recording Active-Soft is akin to recording movies today.
Just with the actor being fitted with a sim-rig to record his motor-cortex signals in different situations.
Then it's cutting away the unneeded stuff and arranging the needed stuff to make it work for anybody in any situation. Which means loads of testing.
And at some point witchcraft happens so that you only need the motoric part not the knowing stuff about what the frag you are doing in the first place.
Because otherwise the knowsoft/activesoft divide makes no sense anymore.

As for astral stuff: Yes, basically what blade said. You don't go blind if you have cyber-eyes, you don't flop around like chicken if you have bonelacing or synthetic muscles, you don't spazz out if you have anything rigged to your central nervous system. It just does what the actual fleshy parts would do and nothing more. Cyberlimbs are still attached, but they don't offer any benefit at all, not even the attributes, seeing how on the astral your non physical attributes replace those.
Basically anything "structural" still works in terms of keeping you working, but anything that requires actively using electronics is a no go.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:19 am

Ok, so this is going to sound dumb, but it's for a character idea I'm doing for fun. I want to make a Gnome Unarmed Adept (easy so far), with some power or another like Koumei's Ninja to hide in the Bums of his enemies, pop out, and proceed to beat @$$. Now, I'm not sure if a power for that exists or not, but I wonder if there's anything like that, could replicate something close to that??

Character idea is "The Squeezer" who crushes groins, throats in his hands, a Vigilante who's turf is in London's "The Squeeze" zone, and maybe his enemies are "Knights of Rage" gang (and its Dragon boss). Since I'm using Frank's Houserules, what should his secondary specialty be, if he's to have survived mostly independently?

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:06 am

Be a mage who summons spirits with conceal on top of improved invis. Use touch spells.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:44 am

Why gnome?
How set on that are you?
There IS the Pixie Metasapient Race, remember?
And Britain is actually, for once, a reasonable place for one to pop up in the shadows <.<

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:04 pm

I'm trying to comprehend the "Slow" spell from WAR!. Is it really the Dune force field it seems to be, that prevents people from doing ranged combat to you, no save? Should it be slapped onto every melee mysAd?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:59 pm

Very much, yes.
Somebody did not pay enough attention with that book.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:53 pm

Stahlseele wrote:Why gnome?
How set on that are you?
There IS the Pixie Metasapient Race, remember?
And Britain is actually, for once, a reasonable place for one to pop up in the shadows <.<

Because the idea of a Midget punching people super hard and being some good MA is pretty funny. I've forgotten about the Pixie, as I figure it probably is massively expensive and penalizing to play. So I'm fairly set on the Gnome thing, but pending that the Pixie can do, I might be willing to make switch to that instead.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:09 pm

The Pixie Puncher is an unholy abomination somebody on dumpshock came up with.
look here for starting ideas:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=24131

It's very questionable if that all would be allowed, even for a non pixie character.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:30 pm

I know that Arsenal permits a wide variety of mods for your firearms. What's available for melee weapons, such as vibroswords and shock gloves?

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:47 pm

Sidebar: Are there any shadowrun stories/novels featuring a mystic adept as the main/POV character?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:59 pm

Longes wrote:I'm trying to comprehend the "Slow" spell from WAR!. Is it really the Dune force field it seems to be, that prevents people from doing ranged combat to you, no save? Should it be slapped onto every melee mysAd?

Even Catalyst has grudgingly admitted that spell was insane. I don't know of anyone who would let you use it as printed.

Ferret wrote:Sidebar: Are there any shadowrun stories/novels featuring a mystic adept as the main/POV character?

Not really. Mystic Adepts were really normalized in 4th edition, which coincidentally came out after the Shadowrun novel line had basically fallen apart.

-Username17

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:33 pm

virgil wrote:I know that Arsenal permits a wide variety of mods for your firearms. What's available for melee weapons, such as vibroswords and shock gloves?

AFAIK, everything that makes sense - "personalized grip, melee", chameleon coating, custom looks. Possibly "easy breakdown".

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:38 pm

EDIT: doublepost

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:16 pm

Stahlseele wrote: It's very questionable if that all would be allowed, even for a non pixie character.

You're overstating the cheese factor of the things that go into the pixie puncher quite a bit there. The Pixie Puncher doesn't use anything particularly creative and isn't even particularly min-maxed, it's just one of many examples of how Strength doesn't mean dick in SR4--paying out the ass for 1 DV per 2 points of Strength is for suckers. And frankly, with the way opposed tests work in SR4 melee it takes an awful lot of DV before I'd take raw damage over using a customized weapon and rocking a higher dice pool.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:28 pm

Whipstitch wrote:
Stahlseele wrote: It's very questionable if that all would be allowed, even for a non pixie character.
You're overstating the cheese factor of the things that go into the pixie puncher quite a bit there. The Pixie Puncher doesn't use anything particularly creative and isn't even particularly min-maxed, it's just one of many examples of how Strength doesn't mean dick in SR4--paying out the ass for 1 DV per 2 points of Strength is for suckers. And frankly, with the way opposed tests work in SR4 melee it takes an awful lot of DV before I'd trade raw damage for using a customized weapon and rocking a higher dice pool.

I'm not really sure what wouldn't be allowed in that character. Type O is legal, pixies are legal, critical strike is legal. The only real question is - can you wear hardliner gloves to get +1DV, or wear one hardliner glove and dual-wield for martial arts bonus.

Punch is very much a joke character, with a 50cm midget punching through trolls being the joke. For bonus points he should be mysAd with [Light] Aura (to halve the armor value) and Smashing Blow to be the best locksmith in the world. And punch through tanks (questionable).

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:07 pm

Yes, in and off itself, all of these things are very much legal. The combination of these is where it gets questionable. Same how it is perfectly legal for people to own specific kinds of chemical fertilizer and ammounts of ammonia as well. But if you combine them, you suddenly wind up with stuff you'd probably face jail for owning small ammounts already,

Type O as per description is a HUMAN that had out of pure coincidence a perfect genetic make up to be a donor for anybody else. Basically, all Bioware that is not specifically tailored to a body is made up from Type-O stuff. So there is no reason why it should work on something that is not at least metahuman.
And then you need the Cyber/Bioware as well. Which as a metasapient has to be all delta. Which, again, is a no go at char gen in the rules.
And if you go for elemental effects to get rid of armor: sound negates all armor aside from special sound dampening devices for the ears.

There is no reason why the pixie puncher would not work with a gnome instead of a pixie either, but the pixies concealment and small form factor target size both for intents of spotting and hitting make it the better ninja. And the natural ability to fly certainly also helps with that.
And you can't deny the hillarity of a big and tough gangbanger ork or troll getting beaten up by what ammounts to disneys tinkerbelle.
With the ressources saved by swapping out the pixie for a Gnome, you could make that a very viable character, that is not as hard to detect and spot and can't fly but is probably simply better than the pixie at anything else.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:34 am

Nosferatu seems to be a pretty cool guy. What are the pitfalls, aside from the requirement to be a spellcaster with Alleviate Allergy and Physical Mask?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:10 pm

The fact that anybody who knows about it is going to want to kill you just to make sure you don't make a meal out of him probably.
And remember, alleviate allergy makes you sparkle in the sunlight shovelface.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:17 pm

Stahlseele wrote:The fact that anybody who knows about it is going to want to kill you just to make sure you don't make a meal out of him probably.

Well, that's why you have sustained Physical Mask and Alleviate Allergy. And you are not a Vampire, so you can eat food. And really, people potentially hunting you is not bad - it's a plot hook. Plot hooks are good.

Stahlseele wrote:And remember, alleviate allergy makes you sparkle in the sunlight shovelface.

Wait, what?

Street Magic, p.169 wrote:Alleviate Allergy
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 4
This spell allows the caster to block or reduce an allergy’s effects on the target (see p. 80, SR4). Every net hit reduces the allergy level by one (from Moderate to Mild, for example). The spell does not remove the allergy, only alleviates its effects, and it only alleviates the effects of one allergy at a time. The effects of the Allergy return at full force once the spell ends.