Rehabbing WoD, but keeping it's spirit

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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Well, Mage isn't one of my strong suits, because I only ever got to play two mages- one in a game where the ST was firmly into the "fuck the metaplot, fuck the abilities that make my life difficult, get on the damn train" philosophy, and one in a game where Mage was being used to run a Matrix game. So I'm not sure how much Nephandi are needed.

That said, I like my idea of mages who were reforged in Hell. They don't need to be Nephandi, though, or more powerful than other mages. I was thinking about differentating mages by how they awakened, rather than their magic paradigm.

...So that's a good note on which to start talking about the mages.

Mages
Through careful study or alien inspiration, a mortal can peer through the veils of the worlds and win a minor ability to control a discrete part of the universe--conjuring flame with a thought, cleaving supernatural beings with mortal steel, controlling the weak-minded, and even more. These being often bear the title of mystics, mages, psychics and more.

The true mages, however, refer to these minor wonder-workers as hedgemages, however, for they are only able to use a single paradigm of the magical arts. To learn more, they must fracture their being into a two-part entity, the material mage, and the atavistic avatar.

There are many ways for a hedgemage to awaken their avatar--some bind their spirit to another external body, creating a familiar who then pulls their spirit into two, others sever their spirit through inhuman acts, and others meditate upon past lives, reawakening one of those former identities in their spirit that they may learn from it's guidance.

Splitting Your Spirit
  • Familiars You create or augment another creature (or an object) and tie it to your soul. This turns your soul into an Avatar, which kind of just happens to be your familiar. You have a second body to send on errands in the mortal world.
  • Fetches You create a second personality within yourself, like a tulpa, which is able to walk in Arcadia with your spirit form. You have a second body you can send on errands in Arcadia.
  • Fetters You "do something" which tears a part of your soul out and attaches it to an object. Yes, you're Voldemort. Except that he had Fetters and Familiars and there probably shouldn't be an option to have both, or even more than one Fetter. Killing you permanently requires destruction of your Fetter--if your Fetter is destroyed while you're still alive, your magic stat gets reduced.
  • Former Lives You awaken memories of a past life and store them in your spirit. This awakens your spirit into it's own being. Select a number of skills equal to your magic stat which you may treat as having dots equal to ...something... selectable skills depend on the era of your former life.
I feel like there should be at least one more type of mage, but I'm not sure what it should be. Not sure how to handle hedge magic in character creation. It feels like it should be a merit--take it once, you get the lowest level effect of a given sphere, take it again and you can gain another power from the same sphere, cost dependent on the level of effect, with a hard cap on power level, but freebie points buying vertical power is a bad idea. So it probably needs to just be another template and you'd have tiers along the lines of
  • Mortal
  • Sup'ed Up Mortal (Demon Thrall, Ghoul, Hedge Mage/Psychic, Fomor)
  • Full Supernaturals (Mages, Vampires, Werewolves, etc)
Last edited by Prak on Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Prak »

The Cosmology of Arcadia
Arcadia is a world literally alive. It is a place where every mortal concept has it's incarnation, where animals talk and streams, mountains and forests are home to beautiful women intimately linked to the well being the terrain.

Types of Spirits
  • Anima: talking animals, including extinct and mythic animals.
  • Elementals and Nymphs: incarnations of natural phenomena, such as fire, air and earth, or specific non-mobile natural features, such as trees and mountains.
  • Fae: generally humanoid beings who can be seen as incarnations of concepts or traits.[/b]
Other Spirit classes
  • Totems: individual spirits who are generally some of the most powerful. Totem is a status. Each totem is the champion of a group, generally Werewolf tribes.
  • Divines: Spirits which are actively worshiped. May answer petitions, but are not champions of groups.
  • Celestine: Spirits which serve Divines, ie, the angels of the Patriarch are celestines.
The magic of the changing breeds is highly dependent upon spirits. While learning a gift from another member of the changing breeds is always possible, the origin of all gifts is spirits, and it can sometimes be easier to go to a spirit for a gift than get it from another werewolf. Spirits will still usually want gifts or favours, however.

Creating fetishes and talismans requires the interaction of a spirit. To imbue a fetish or talisman with the desired power, a spirit must be sought out which is related to the power--water elementals or naiads for ever-filling bowls, fire elementals for blazing swords, spirits of trickery or mischief for limitless debit cards, and so on. The spirit must agree to imbue the item. Doing so requires the spirit to give a part of themselves to the item, and so they often ask favours or offerings. In the case of a talisman, once the item is used up, any Gnosis which was invested in it by the spirit returns to that spirit at the next sunrise or sunset on Arcadia. Fetishes retain the Spirit's Gnosis until they are destroyed, and for this reason Spirits are very reluctant to imbue fetishes.

Each die of effect requires the spirit to place 1 Gnosis into the item. For example, a sword (Dam 3) which deals aggravated damage to supernatural creatures would require 1 point of Gnosis from a spirit related to war or pain for each die of aggravated damage desired. If it is desired for the Agg to be in addition to the sword's normal lethal damage, an extra point of Gnosis must be invested. In the case of a "limitless credit card" which essentially conjures fake money for purchases, each point of Gnosis invested by a spirit of trickery would allow the user to act as though they had one dot of Finances.

Some effects don't mimic a stat, such as a bowl which conjures fresh, clean water (1 Gn.). For these effects, use the following list as a guideline:
(insert list).
Ok, so this cuts out chair and blade-of-grass spirits, binds Werethings and Fae a bit more, and retains the overall in-game magic system of werethings. Yes things are still a bit sketchy, but basically when you want to make a fetish, you go to Arcadia, find a paradigm-appropriate fae, and say "hey, gimme some of your magic so I can do this thing" and it acts like trying to get stuff in a barter system. It's MTP, but there will be more guidelines when this goes from being a rough sketch to actual rules, and the MTP is basically "can I convince this guy to do this thing for me," and leans on the social interaction system.

It raises the question of whether Werewolf PCs can learn PC Fae arts, which I guess is nicely solved by making PC Fae half-human changelings, but I'm not necessarily opposed to, and if the power systems get balanced and made more similar, shouldn't really be an issue.

Actually, that raises another question that I need to answer at some point anyway- How miscible are the splats? In OWoD, the answer is pretty much "They're not, and we're ripping up your character sheet for even attempting it." But in this, well, I get to decide that, and I think the answer should be "somewhat." I mean, Werewolves can't become mages because they already have awakened spirits, but there's no reason a werewolf couldn't learn hedge magic (Assuming things get balanced). Vampirism... I don't know. I feel like it should be another way of altering your spirit (see below). I do kind of like the idea that becoming a vampire basically kills your spirit, but I also like the idea of vampiric werethings. I'm considering Werething gifts all being tagged Creation/Stasis/Destruction, and whether you can use one depends on your spiritual ties, so maybe vampire werewolves can use Destruction gifts, also maybe V.Werewolves with Animalism regain their ability to shapechange.
The First Vampire
Eons ago in the prehistoric forests of the Material world, a man thought himself the best hunter to grace the planet. He believed he could run down, kill or trap any beast, no matter how fast, how strong, or how cunning.

But, he also knew that death came for all things, and that he could hardly claim himself to be the greatest hunter if one would eventually claim him. So he sought a way to deny death his skin.

He studied with witches and shamans, and spoke with spirits of decay and rebirth. He stalked the darkest paths of Arcadia and found spirits no sane mortal would entreat. In the end, the hunter had trapped his arcane prey, and created a ritual which would allow him to elude the greatest hunter of all, Death.

The night after he enacted his ritual, he found that he hungered. No meat or fermented drink would sate, but the raw flesh of the auroch he slew tasted sweeter than ever before.

It was after he eliminated his ravenous feast and found that it had rotted as it passed through him that he began to suspect the cost of his ritual. The wise ones had warned him that all great rituals had great prices, but he'd laughed it off. As he slew another beast, looking to slake his hunger, he took an experimental taste of the blood from his spear, and the hunger deep within him quieted just a hint. After he drained the corpse of blood into his mouth, he found that the hunger dulled, as if he'd eaten a filling meal but not the one he truly wanted.

He quickly found that the blood of his former kin was the only thing that truly satisfied his hunger now. The hunter was not one for sentiment, but did now wonder what he'd made of himself. When he tried to overcome his hunger through willpower, he found that it just weakened him, to the point where every step was a labour.

He succumbed to the consequence of his arrogance, and became a hunter of those he once called brothers. Some sought him out and requested that he teach them his ritual, and for those he found worthy, he assented--after he drained them of their precious lifeblood.

The ritual has become the Embrace. With each generation, the ritual wanes in power as it is applied inexpertly by those who only learned an already inexact form.

Vampires can survive on the blood of animals, but it is a life plagued by the thirst for human blood. A vampire who has drank any blood cannot spend willpower to ignore their thirst, and animal blood is weak compared to human blood. All vampiric powers cost double when paid for in animal blood, and vampires spend two points of blood fueling their undead forms each night if they've consumed any animal blood. A vampire with animal and human blood in their pool may choose which they are using to fuel powers or subsist.

Supernatural blood is comparatively potent. Each point of Supernatural blood used to pay for vampiric abilities counts as two points for the effect, but is only a single point for point-per-turn maximums. Supernatural blood flows through a vampire quickly, however, and a vampire with any supernatural blood in their pool spends two points of supernatural blood to sustain themselves (if they only have 1 point of supernatural blood in their pool, they need spend only that one point). Supernatural blood is always spent first, and a vampire with supernatural blood in their pool cannot choose to spend another form of blood instead.

Vampires and the Changing Breeds
Vampires are strongly Static creatures. Any change applied to them is quickly undone by the magic of the Embracing ritual. They are almost wholly removed from Creation, unable to procreate save through powerful magic or the Embrace, and have a unique relationship with Destruction, difficult to kill save through powerful or specific magic or rituals, but strong forces of destruction and death themselves.

Because they have had their ties to Creation severed, many members of the changing breeds see vampires as unnatural (as opposed to supernatural). Members of the changing breeds sympathetic to Stasis may be willing to work with vampires.

Because they are effectively walking corpses sustained through a particularly wasteful form of hunting, some members of the changing breeds believe vampires to be incarnations Destruction. The fact that the spirits The Hunter spoke to to learn the secrets for his ritual would be rather unsavory sorts does not help this association. Changing breeds who are opposed to destruction and partial to this belief oppose vampires as well.

A very small minority of changing breeds see the transformative nature of the Embrace and believe vampires to be at least loosely tied to Creation, but these changing breeds are few and far between.

City Striders and Guttersnipes are the most likely of the werewolf tribes to work with vampires, reverent as they are of Beath. Of the other changing breeds, the hyena-spirited Aasdier do not shy away from vampires, tolerant as they are of spiritual entities associated with death, pain, disease and other unsavoury subjects, and the triatic, spider-spirited Weavers have no problem with vampires either. The fell Tunnel-Loppers who worship Cur Deiraeadh have a certain respect for vampires and will frequently work with them.

Should a vampire embrace a changing breed, the victim loses their ability to change forms from that they were embraced in, and loses the ability to use Creation gifts, or the Creation version of gifts with multiple ties. If the embraced changing breed learns the vampiric discipline of Animalism, they regain the ability to take their other forms. If an embraced changing breed learns the discipline of Discord, they may spend blood points in place of gnosis to use Creation gifts.

Vampires, Spirits, Arcadia and Magic
The vampiric spirit is a twisted thing tied to their body. While this is similar to the spiritual nature of the changing breeds, the vampire is a thing of the Material realm, not Arcadia. A vampire has a difficult time entering Arcadia, as they cannot project their spirit, and have no inherent way of traveling there bodily. A vampire taken to Arcadia is stranded there until they are brought back or find a way back.

As vampires essentially do not have a dual nature, they cannot be mages. They cannot tie their spirit to a familiar, give it it's own will and motive force or put pieces of it in objects. In essence, they are their own fetter and their spirit is indivisible. If, through an act of great magic, a vampire manages to separate their spirit to gain use of true magic, they cease to be a vampire.

Likewise, a mage cannot be a vampire. The mage's spirit is separate from their body and cannot be bound to it in the Embrace except through destroying their avatar, which usually will destroy their spirit and kill them. Theoretically, The Hunter could perform the First Embrace on a mage and draw their spirit back to their body, but doing so would destroy their avatar, and remove from them the ability to use all but hedge magic.
Last edited by Prak on Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by momothefiddler »

Prak wrote:Types of Spirits
-Anima: talking animals, including extinct and mythic animals, and nymphs.
-Elementals: incarnations of natural phenomena, such as fire, air and earth.
-Fae: generally humanoid beings who can be seen as incarnations of concepts or traits.
How are the pretty ladies that are the spirits of trees/rivers/etc. neither elemental nor fae under this classification?
A vampire who has drank any blood cannot spend willpower to ignore their thirst
Wait, wait, wait, what if they haven't? You can't just say that and leave the alternative out.
All vampiric powers cost double when paid for in animal blood, and vampires spend two points of blood fueling their undead forms each night if they've consumed any animal blood. A vampire with animal and human blood in their pool may choose which they are using to fuel powers or subsist.

Supernatural blood is comparatively potent. Each point of Supernatural blood used to pay for vampiric abilities counts as two points for the effect, but is only a single point for point-per-turn maximums. Supernatural blood flows through a vampire quickly, however, and a vampire with any supernatural blood in their pool spends two points of supernatural blood to sustain themselves (if they only have 1 point of supernatural blood in their pool, they need spend only that one point). Supernatural blood is always spent first, and a vampire with supernatural blood in their pool cannot choose to spend another form of blood instead.
Good lord do not write this travesty of accounting I have had to do it as a houserule and it is atrocious do not do this.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Hmm... good point, nymphs should be elementals. Nymphs are tied to natural places/things, so they aren't fae, which personify intangible concepts and traits.

Sorry, yes, vampires can spend willpower to ignore their thirst for a night. It just ignores the urge to feed however, they still suffer the consequences of lacking blood to sustain their body (probably a health level).

Is it really that much worse than tracking three types of wounds? It doesn't seem to me that it would be. One option would be tracking blood points with counters, and having three colours, another would be using different marks to track different types of blood, just as you do with wounds.
Last edited by Prak on Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by momothefiddler »

Prak wrote:Is it really that much worse than tracking three types of wounds? It doesn't seem to me that it would be. One option would be tracking blood points with counters, and having three colours, another would be using different marks to track different types of blood, just as you do with wounds.
Wounds are tracked in a strict hierarchy and you never have agg-lethal-lethal-bashing-agg or whatever.

Though, given your rules so far, I guess there's no issue with giving three separate tracks on the sheet (or colors of counter, if you're requiring extra materials).

I guess since blood is vampires' primary currency, it's as reasonable as giving mages aspected tass...
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Post by Prak »

Actually, werewolves could have aspected Gnosis too. That makes it so that they don't need Gnosis AND Rage, Rage is just Destruction Gnosis.

I'll probably try to do that with all the splats, though I don't know if it creates balance problems to not have to worry about three types of mojo when others do, or if so, how big the balance problems are.

Note: Edited the spirit types. Nymphs are now effectively synonymous with elementals, and just personify specific features rather than types of phenomenon, and Divines are another rank similar to Totems, different in that they receive worship and are not champions of a group. Celestines specifically serve Divines.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

At this point, you've crossed the threshold where this shit isn't recognizable as the World of Darkness anymore, so I'm punching out. This is the basic problem with World of Darkness: it is beyond the complexity limits of anyone to actually use, and to move forward with it, you'd have to reboot and simplify. But its actual essence as a world is made up of a series of weird fiddly details.

You can simplify things and have it remain recognizable. The World of Darkness is still the World of Darkness if you drop the Samedi and the Sibersk. But you can't really change a bunch of shit. As soon as you start nattering about the fae as a type of spirit alongside elementals, I'm just fucking done. That's not recognizable as the World of Darkness, where fairies are children who have hundred year old loli sex goat souls or some fucking thing.

If you were going to be less of a %^& about all this, you'd start with all the groups that you could fit in, and then go back and work out a compromise theology. Starting with your new theology just makes things completely unrecognizable. This isn't even "Prak's World of Darkness," it's just "Prak's Gnostic Ramblings."

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Post by infected slut princess »

Your first Vampire story I think needs to be more dramatic and interesting. I am not a Christian but using Christian mythology and making Cain the first vampire is higher on Cool Factor than some guy who talks to a witch and makes up his own ritual to become a vampire. There is no drama in a story like that.
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
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Post by Prak »

FrankTrollman wrote:At this point, you've crossed the threshold where this shit isn't recognizable as the World of Darkness anymore, so I'm punching out. This is the basic problem with World of Darkness: it is beyond the complexity limits of anyone to actually use, and to move forward with it, you'd have to reboot and simplify. But its actual essence as a world is made up of a series of weird fiddly details.

You can simplify things and have it remain recognizable. The World of Darkness is still the World of Darkness if you drop the Samedi and the Sibersk. But you can't really change a bunch of shit. As soon as you start nattering about the fae as a type of spirit alongside elementals, I'm just fucking done. That's not recognizable as the World of Darkness, where fairies are children who have hundred year old loli sex goat souls or some fucking thing.

If you were going to be less of a %^& about all this, you'd start with all the groups that you could fit in, and then go back and work out a compromise theology. Starting with your new theology just makes things completely unrecognizable. This isn't even "Prak's World of Darkness," it's just "Prak's Gnostic Ramblings."

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So... I shouldn't leave in the garou animism... I shouldn't do up a new cosmology that at least shares the main thrust of it... what should I do? Write a small packet that gives it a new system and balances the powers and say "sorry the metaplot still sucks, but if I change it, it's not wod anymore?"
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

Prak wrote:I shouldn't do up a new cosmology that at least shares the main thrust of it... what should I do?
World of Darkness is actually several different game lines which are incompatible. And so for many facets of the setting you are faced with one of the lines presenting Option 1 and another of the lines presenting Option 2. Now, if you want your hybrid setting to be recognizable as having the "spirit" of World of Darkness, your entire potential set is as follows:
  • Option 0: drop both disparate elements altogether and just not talk about it.
  • Option 1: use Option 1 as-is.
  • Option 2: use Option 2 as-is.
  • Option 1.5: Create a new option that is identifiably a hybrid between Option 1 and Option 2.
"Option 3" where you make up something else that you like better and ignore all the source material is not part of your fucking solution space. It just fucking isn't. So when you start going off about how the first Vampire was some self empowered caveman hunter that no one gives a second shit about, that is you failing this challenge.

You're going to have to cut a lot of things. That's regrettable, but absolutely necessary. People writing for various lines went way out of their way to write up stumbling blocks to integrating the settings as some sort of slow motion jealous turf war in Atlanta, and you're going to have to dump some of that shit. No way around that, and no reason to pretend that there is. But you're going to have to keep some of the key things from each of the lines as well or it just won't be recognizable. And honestly, you've made it abundantly clear that you don't know what keys things are:
Prak wrote:Actually, werewolves could have aspected Gnosis too. That makes it so that they don't need Gnosis AND Rage, Rage is just Destruction Gnosis.
Yeeeah.... no. This quote right here tells me and everyone else that you don't "get" Werewolf. The money quote for Werewolf is and always has been "When will you Rage?" It puts that quote all over the damn book, because it's the central idea of the entire game line. We have documentary evidence from 1st edition Mummy that they weren't actually settled on this whole "Wyrm" bullshit until quite late in the process, but the Rage deal is bottom line. It's the foundation for fucking everything.

You can cut out the Lupine Werewolves (and you need to), you can cut out any or all of the Garou tribes, you can dump the entire spirit world (and you need to), you can dump the Weaver/Wyrm/Wyld thing. But you can't dump Rage. If Werewolves don't have Rage, they aren't a thing.

The entire point of Werewolves is that they turn into a big angry hairy monster and rip things apart with claws. Therefore they need things in the setting that need to be ripped up with claws and they need to be able to rip them up with their claws and anger. Everything else can be marginalized or discarded. Literally every single fucking thing. Except that. And if you don't understand that, you can't write something that fits your goals of keeping the spirit of World of Darkness.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Prak, let's step away from WoD for a minute and consider another troubled White Wolf property: Exalted. Exalted fans have two denial in depth ways of expressing loyalty to the brand. They have a series of reasonably appealing sales pitches (play shiny ubermensch from the very start instead of Steve the Crap-Covered Farmer; be such big badasses in your every action that you can write strongly-worded letters that KILL PEOPLE; violent action-adventure fantasy that doesn't derive from LotR/D&D; play in a rich and exciting campaign setting where you get to affect huge change) and also a memeplex that defines the campaign setting and rules-set.

Now, a lot of people have realized that the intersection of the memeplex and sales pitches is not only damn near an empty set but that they actively conflict in a lot of ways. You can't play in a rich and exciting campaign setting where you get to affect huge change AND have Deathlords. You can't play shiny ubermensch from the very start when you have the charm and advancement system fighting you every way. Etc. So a lot of people attempt a hypothetical Exalted reboot that focus on the supremacy of the sales pitches and if something in the memeplex doesn't support it -- out it goes. And Exalted is so dysfunctional that you're going to be doing a lot of binning.

The potential problem with this approach is that Exalted fans will proclaim that what you have left over is not Exalted. And you know what? To these people, it won't actually matter if the product you have left is superior. What they wanted is Exalted. So faced with this conundrum, you have two choices.

[*] Tell the existing fans to go fuck a loaded shotgun; this is what Exalted or any IP is from now on and any holdouts are stupid grognards who can't let go of their rape ghosts. And this can work if your new product is awesome enough. It worked for 3E D&D and post-Roddenberry Trek. On the other hand, if you're not a bad enough dude to pull this off then what you have is New Coke or 4E D&D.
[*] Accept that your new product is going to have some intentionally suboptimal features and aspects in it in hopes of keeping continuity with the old brand. You excise everything stupid or bloated from the brand that you can manage. And if what you have left over is still a bit too stupid you start engaging in Sophie's Choices for the remaining elements, cutting as little as possible in order to have a good game. Once you're done with this you can either market your creation as a spinoff or a well-intentioned replacement for the old IP.

And honestly, I'm not a WoD fan or anything, but I'm extremely baffled as to why you want to die on the Nephandi/hell-demon hill. Like, if someone asked me what WoD was to me, my impression would be, in order of importance, Vampires > International Conspiracy Theories led by supernaturals > Werewolves > Supernatural Hunters >>> Non-Hunter Spellcasters >>> Changelings > Everything Else. Like, if you pitched a WoD: Next to me that said that Mummies and Wraiths and Demons were now just descriptive labels for certain flavors of Vampires, Human Spellcasters, and Werewolves I would be 'cool' and move on. If someone pitched a WoD to me that had the monster factions exist in open daylight for more of an X-Men setup I'd be 'damn, that's a huge change'.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Chamomile »

It's fair to say that moving away from rage means you aren't really doing Werewolf: the Apocalypse. However, it is also true that werewolves as a concept cover a lot more thematic space than just rage, and letting the ghost of White Wolf dictate your decisions is just stupid. This is not the first time you've expressed the desire to have a werewolf game that isn't about rage, but every time you do you also say that Werewolf: the Apocalypse totally is or should have been that game. It isn't and it shouldn't have. Basically my conclusion here is that it is obvious that the game you want to make is not a rehabilitation of WoD that keeps its spirit but rather a fanged heartbreaker with the spirit you wished WoD had. And I am seriously 100% on board with Prak: the Gnostic Ramblings, but be honest with yourself: You aren't rehabilitating Werewolf: the Apocalypse. You're making an entirely new supernaturals game that will wear WoD's skin like a suit in order to trick people too lazy to learn a new system into playing it.

That said, you really need to rethink the vampire origin story. Werewolf: the Apocalypse can't cover the themes you want it to, but werewolves in general totally can. However, vampires are urban creatures. They can represent aristocracy, celebrity, disease, rape, clique politics in a closed system where there's nothing meaningful to fight for, and all of it happens either more often or exclusively in cities. Having the first vampire be pre-civilized is not a good idea. Vampires aren't hunters, they're murderers.
Last edited by Chamomile on Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

Ok, I'll table the spiritual werewolves thing for now. My group was very atypical, and I tend to play characters that love their magic swag. WW very much wanted the spirit world to be a big focus of WtA, but it was a part of the larger narrative.

So, thinking about it (and doing some googling), here's the conclusion I've come to as to the themes of the various splats. I don't have quite the experience of others, so someone tell me if I'm missing something.
  • Vampire: Personal conflict: Man Against Self, Meta conflict: Man Against Society. Power struggles and politics
  • Werewolf: Personal conflict: Man Against Self/Nature, Meta conflict:Man/Nature Against the Supernatural. Rage and Monsters
  • Hunter: Personal/Meta conflict: Man Against the Supernatural. Fight overwhelming monsters and their control over society to save humanity.
  • Mage: Man Against Society. Succubi and Coke
  • Changeling: Modern Fantasy, "Man" Against Society.
Then there are the other few gamelines. I know next to nothing about Wraith, but it seems like it's entirely self contained, and just needs to fit into the other gamelines so that if there is a Wraith book it's not "Hey guys! Here's this totally new thing that you would think would tie into everything else but totally doesn't!" Demon, while something of a pet game to me, is a probably bit superfluous, and really should have just been part of a "Possessed" game where some people are Fomori and some are Demons and others are Wraiths riding people, or something. Demon's basic conflict is "Man" Against God, and it shares Vampire's focus on politics because... I don't fucking know. It was a tail end game so it was fucking confused. Half the writers wanted to make it Ghost Rider, where you run around fighting bad demons, the other half wanted it to be Vampire 2, where you drink Faith while you argue politics.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by fectin »

It may be worth taking a step back and trying to lay out what the "feel" of world of darkness actually is. Otherwise, you have no requirements to compare to, and have set yourself a task which is literally impossible.

Like, are the stupid dice mechanics a key part of that feel? Many people would say yes, and will reject any final result as a failure that doesn't include stupid dice mechanics. And the thing is, they'll be right. "Feel" is a weirdly subjective term that you badly need to nail down a little more thoroughly.

You can see that happening right here in this thread: Frank's disagreement with you largely reduces to different feelings about what the essence of WoD actually is, and not with any of your actual ideas. Same with Lago.

Now, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is a fine way to explore what derived requirements will lead to a successful end. But that product is throw-away drafts, not actual design (at best it's a non-functioning mock-up). Do your due diligence and gin up a design doc. You'll be happier long term.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I'd use a better meta-conflict for Mage than Succubi and Coke, because as you noted there's no conflict there. You learn magic, you get everything you want, where's the fun or story in that?

Again, I'm no WoD fan, but if I was going to do Mage I'd do it along one of these lines, with maybe even an option for blending.
  • X-Men/European Witch Hunt style: You have these strange powers and you're getting persecuted for no reason. Sometimes people in your demographic do something terrible with their powers and the persecutors use this as an excuse to persecute you some more. Assuming that you wanted to keep the masquerade totally intact you get visited by Men in Black and Inquisition squads who wanted to do stuff like sign you up for the Mutant Registration Act, force you into becoming wards of the government, or outright killing you.
  • Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Style: Mages get these awesome powers for no good raisin and oftentime tell proper society to fuck off since they can barely detect you, let alone combat you. The only other people who can oppose you are other supernaturals so unless you're doing something huge and crazy like mind-controlling Parliament you can get away with almost anything unless you get on the bad side of some vampire/werewolf/whatever. But if you want to be something like a serial killer or a racial hatemonger you can probably get away with it in a way that not even vampires and werewolves can (since they're organized enough to have a society) and the good guys are constantly putting out fires. You're basically Sherlock Holmes or Batman in a city with hundreds of Hannibal Lectors.
  • Harry Potter style: Mages have their own hidden subculture and both the good guys and the bad guys become increasingly culturally out of touch with society at large. Some bad guy mages are like Xanatos and get their shit together long enough to become a legit power player in both worlds; some are like Voldemort and despite all of the bluster and angst of the mage world could never amount to anything more than Aum Shurinko-style terrorists. But the underlying theme is that the vast majority of you are ultimately socially revanchist outsiders who can't understand how iPods and automobiles work yet insist on having a say on how society is run.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by BoxCrayonTales »

Hey. Been lurking here for a while and decided to share input.

Are you trying to reinvent the new world of darkness or create yet another heartbreaker? Because it seems to me that you're doing the exact same thing white wolf did when they decided to put the classic world of darkness on hiatus and release the new world of darkness.

What makes your attempt to reinvent the wheel any different from that? You are not trying to retain the same splats or the same cosmology. You are more or less rebuilding everything from the ground up except with a shared world. Which is pretty much the same thing all the heartbreakers have done. What makes this stand out from all of those?

Do you want to release this for profit or is it just a free homebrew thing? What rules are you using? Storyteller, Storytelling, Shadowrun, Opening the Dark, what? What background and playstyles do you intend to support? I think before you start writing the fluff, you should write a premise and concept document that lays out your plan from the beginning rather than write everything in stream of consciousness.

EDIT: After Sundown is the latest in a series of heartbreakers where the writers decided "the world of darkness is too confusing, I'm going to make my own game about supernatural monsters in the modern day." That thinking gave us Everlasting, WitchCraft, Strands of Fate, and Urban Shadows. Most everyone I talked to agreed those games were designed better than the original world of darkness. The first three are available on RPGNow and the fourth has public playtest documents. You should take a look at them if you want to know how others have approached this problem before.
Last edited by BoxCrayonTales on Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

I really don't get the difference between this and After Sundown except you are keeping more of the WW setting (and therefore more of the problems). Unless it's a "Monte Cook's World of Darkness" kind of deal. Prak's After Sundown?
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Post by schpeelah »

Red_Rob wrote:I really don't get the difference between this and After Sundown except you are keeping more of the WW setting (and therefore more of the problems). Unless it's a "Monte Cook's World of Darkness" kind of deal. Prak's After Sundown?
That's what it's turning into as problems are pointed out, but I'd like to remind you Prak's original dream was a "fixed" WoD with a 1-page document listing all the changes.
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Post by TheFlatline »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Prak wrote:Actually, werewolves could have aspected Gnosis too. That makes it so that they don't need Gnosis AND Rage, Rage is just Destruction Gnosis.
Yeeeah.... no. This quote right here tells me and everyone else that you don't "get" Werewolf. The money quote for Werewolf is and always has been "When will you Rage?" It puts that quote all over the damn book, because it's the central idea of the entire game line. We have documentary evidence from 1st edition Mummy that they weren't actually settled on this whole "Wyrm" bullshit until quite late in the process, but the Rage deal is bottom line. It's the foundation for fucking everything.

You can cut out the Lupine Werewolves (and you need to), you can cut out any or all of the Garou tribes, you can dump the entire spirit world (and you need to), you can dump the Weaver/Wyrm/Wyld thing. But you can't dump Rage. If Werewolves don't have Rage, they aren't a thing.

The entire point of Werewolves is that they turn into a big angry hairy monster and rip things apart with claws. Therefore they need things in the setting that need to be ripped up with claws and they need to be able to rip them up with their claws and anger. Everything else can be marginalized or discarded. Literally every single fucking thing. Except that. And if you don't understand that, you can't write something that fits your goals of keeping the spirit of World of Darkness.

-Username17
Yeah, if I had to distill Werewolf down to it's very essence, I'd come up with two items:

1. Rage. If you're a warrior aspect you're supposed to occasionally flip out and rip to shreds everyone at Denny's when the waitress brings you a burger with mayo on it when you clearly ordered no mayo. That's the whole theme that makes you a monster. Yeah you're the eco warrior selected by nature to oppose corruption, and that's all noble, but you still fucking rip the arms off people and beat them to death with them over trivial shit. It's why you band together with other werewolves: They regenerate and shit.

2. A Greek tragedy. As in, you're doomed to fight a losing battle. One your own ancestors lost thousands of years before you were born, but you get stuck with going through the motions of actually losing.

I'm not exaggerating this. The entirety of the metaplot for WW is basically 300 with werewolves. You're the Spartans, The Persians are the wyrm, and you know you're going to lose, and lose big.

That being said, Frank's pretty much right. The original 3 WW games (Vampire, Mage, and WW) are all pretty much written to not be connected. The books even flat out say "there are no Garou in Vampire, there are lupines. And they're big and dumb and hate the fuck out of vampires for who fucking knows what reason. And in WW there are no Kindred, there are leeches: mindless suck-heads that are unholy amalgams of weaver and wyrm."

And you know what? That's fine. If you want to play crossover central then you'll probably have to ditch most/all of the background fluff and again, that's fine, but if you're going to resort to that be willing to take a hatchet to everything and ditch the connections to WoD. I mean, after you're done retconning all the metaphysics and then re-balancing everything so that Werewolves aren't the walking food processors because vampire players are the most vocally whiny group of fanboys I've ever seen in RPGs you basically have nWOD.
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Post by BoxCrayonTales »

The use of white wolf terminology should be avoided in favor of real world terms that are accessible to the layman and actually mean what they are intended to mean.

I think you should take a page from WitchCraft and just have ghosts and spirits existing in the real world and not some new age-y parallel world with no basis in mythology. Rather than having spirits wandering everywhere, they're generally hibernating unless something disturbs the concept they represent. At that point, they wake up and act to defend/promote their concept until pacified. PCs can deliberately wake up spirits to get their help, but the spirits would have to be bargained with before they did anything. Spirits that have been permanently damaged and go on rampages would be the ones that crop up as antagonists.

You're also relying too much on the triat, which I personally find too restrictive. Players should have a choice between traditional accursed and defenders of balance. An example of handling the former can be found in WitchCraft (feral splat) and the latter can be found in Everlasting (manitou splat).

Fairyland/Otherworld can be used as the home plane of fairytale creatures that sometimes sojourn on Earth and cause problems. Since Fairyland is a place where words have tangible power, fairytale creatures on Earth are damaged by disbelief. Whenever they last long, it's because they possessed a host (a unicorn possessing a horse), an object (a teddy bear that moves when unobserved, a dragon living in a storm drain), or hide themselves behind a "glamor" (illusion) that makes them appear as something mundane or invisible to the normals.

I don't think mages should be a distinct splat. Just let everyone be able to train magical powers, don't make them special snowflakes. Luminaries with magic would replace the mages.

As for conflicts, they should be based around player motivations. Generally, PCs want to do one of two things: fight crime or accumulate temporal power. If the PCs fight crime, then the conflict comes from keeping criminals and supernatural monsters from wreaking havoc. If the PCs want to accumulate temporal power, the conflict comes from competing with others who want that power. On top of that the splats have inherent weakness to make things more difficult.
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Post by Username17 »

BoxCrayonTales wrote: You are not trying to retain the same splats or the same cosmology. You are more or less rebuilding everything from the ground up except with a shared world. Which is pretty much the same thing all the heartbreakers have done. What makes this stand out from all of those?
Not having the "same" cosmology isn't a huge problem by itself. World of Darkness had explicitly contradictory cosmology and radically changed it over time. Mage and Werewolf don't have compatible cosmologies, and both the Mage and Werewolf authors went way out of their way to shit all over the Vampire cosmology whenever they could. Further, even within titles there are some pretty huge changes between books. Mage Revised has an "avatar storm" cosmology that isn't particularly recognizable as being the same thing as the stuff presented in the original Mage.

You can't have a cosmology that is the "same" as "the World of Darkness" because the World of Darkness did not have a single consistent cosmology. You're going to have to pick and choose cosmological elements no matter what you do. It's just, if you're claiming that your stuff "is" World of Darkness, you're on extremely thin ice if you decide to write your own cosmology from scratch rather than pick and choose from the vast sampler platter available. I don't really like the whole "soul fragments" cosmology thing they tried to put together with 3rd edition Mummy, Demon, and Hunter - but even going with that would obviously be "closer to the spirit of the World of Darkness" than anything you wrote from scratch no matter how much I liked or didn't like it.
TheFlatline wrote:And you know what? That's fine. If you want to play crossover central then you'll probably have to ditch most/all of the background fluff and again, that's fine, but if you're going to resort to that be willing to take a hatchet to everything and ditch the connections to WoD. I mean, after you're done retconning all the metaphysics and then re-balancing everything so that Werewolves aren't the walking food processors because vampire players are the most vocally whiny group of fanboys I've ever seen in RPGs you basically have nWOD.
I know you love your "Vampire fans declawed Werewolves and that is why WTF sucks so very hard" conspiracy theory, but it's factually wrong. I know it's factually wrong, because Vampires got hit with the same nerfs and several clans got relegated to the useless pile in the same way. The reality is that the "Roleplay not Rollplay" contingent demanded nerfs for combat, not for Werewolves specifically. And you end up with level 1 or 2 in Resilience or Celerity being literally disadvantageous to activate in a gun fight.

The "Roleplay not Rollplay" contingent demanded that combat monsters be nerfed, and all the combat monsters were hit with pretty much the same nerf stick in pretty much the same way. The problem as far as WTF goes is that while you could still jolly well play a Vampire socialite or a Vampire sorcerer, a Werewolf who isn't meaningfully good at getting angry and ripping people up with their claws has no reason to exist. Kicking ass in combat was integral to character concept of some Vampires but all Werewolves. So when nWoD did their "no one gets to be good at combat" decree, the entire line of Werewolf was rendered dickless.

Which goes back to my earlier statement that if you even suggest taking the "rage" out of Werewolf, it means that you do not "get" Werewolf. No one is angry that WTF took the dog rape out of Werewolf. No one wants to play WTF because nWoD doesn't support killing people with claws as a valid life aspiration.

-Username17
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Post by BoxCrayonTales »

FrankTrollman wrote:Not having the "same" cosmology isn't a huge problem by itself. World of Darkness had explicitly contradictory cosmology and radically changed it over time. Mage and Werewolf don't have compatible cosmologies, and both the Mage and Werewolf authors went way out of their way to shit all over the Vampire cosmology whenever they could.
Didn't mage just import the werewolf cosmology wholesale and say it was the result of consensus reality?

In any case, I don't like gonzo sandbox cosmologies. They all too easily degenerate into rehashes of Planescape/Spelljammer, with the party forever traveling the planes/planets and never returning to Earth. This defeats the point of placing the game in a contemporary setting.
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Post by Username17 »

BoxCrayonTales wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Not having the "same" cosmology isn't a huge problem by itself. World of Darkness had explicitly contradictory cosmology and radically changed it over time. Mage and Werewolf don't have compatible cosmologies, and both the Mage and Werewolf authors went way out of their way to shit all over the Vampire cosmology whenever they could.
Didn't mage just import the werewolf cosmology wholesale and say it was the result of consensus reality?
Not really, no. Mage was an incredibly greedy setting that insisted on mansplaining every single thing in every other book. So it took time to call out all the cosmologies of all the other books and explain that they were actually wrong in various ways and in any case were just a small subset of the Mage shenanigans. So the whole Wyrm/Weaver/Wyld stuff of Werewolf was determined to be completely wrong and just a misunderstanding of the Technocracy's overreach in the 1600s or something. So the entire thing about the Wyrm being evil and on a rampage going back thousands of years was announced to be just bad history keeping by the Garou. And so on and so on. Meanwhile, Werewolf had its own rant about how actually all the Mage books were full of it, and the Weaver had been running amok for thousands of years and the Technocracy was just a symptom of that and blah blah blah.

A lot of people think and thought that if you wanted to put all the World of Darkness together that you should start from one of the "greedy" splats that already attempted to mansplain everything, and this was of course totally wrong. The correct choice was to start at the street level of the various splats and bring in only those setting elements that could be fitted together with all the splats you got. Which means that your cosmology is going to end up looking a whole lot like Masquerade and nothing at all like Apocalypse or Ascension.
In any case, I don't like gonzo sandbox cosmologies. They all too easily degenerate into rehashes of Planescape/Spelljammer, with the party forever traveling the planes/planets and never returning to Earth. This defeats the point of placing the game in a contemporary setting.
I don't actually agree that there is no purpose in having the Chronicles of Narnia set in a contemporary setting. The fact that the player characters can be expected to know things that modern people know and have a moral zeitgeist informed by modern culture is invaluable even if the entire adventure takes place in Fairyland or Hell.

Now, depending on what you mean by "gonzo sandbox" I might agree with your conclusion (that they are bad) even if I fault your reasoning. Every additional world uses up conceptual space, and if the worlds are weird or cluttered enough, they can easily completely exceed the conceptual space thresholds of the players at the table, and then you aren't really doing cooperative storytelling at all. It's really easy to hit that kind of complexity overload if you have a lot of worlds.

But if you're going to have Demons at all, you're pretty much committed to having at least one alternate dimension that people can interact with. And you could very plausibly have as many as half a dozen without hitting peoples' complexity limits (assuming that none of the worlds are as stupidly complicated as Werewolf's Umbra, where every houseplant and lamppost could talk and had magic powers). I can certainly imagine people deciding to put more worlds into their World of Darkness Heartbreaker than I did - just not a lot more.

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Post by TheFlatline »

FrankTrollman wrote: I know you love your "Vampire fans declawed Werewolves and that is why WTF sucks so very hard" conspiracy theory, but it's factually wrong. I know it's factually wrong, because Vampires got hit with the same nerfs and several clans got relegated to the useless pile in the same way. The reality is that the "Roleplay not Rollplay" contingent demanded nerfs for combat, not for Werewolves specifically. And you end up with level 1 or 2 in Resilience or Celerity being literally disadvantageous to activate in a gun fight.

The "Roleplay not Rollplay" contingent demanded that combat monsters be nerfed, and all the combat monsters were hit with pretty much the same nerf stick in pretty much the same way. The problem as far as WTF goes is that while you could still jolly well play a Vampire socialite or a Vampire sorcerer, a Werewolf who isn't meaningfully good at getting angry and ripping people up with their claws has no reason to exist. Kicking ass in combat was integral to character concept of some Vampires but all Werewolves. So when nWoD did their "no one gets to be good at combat" decree, the entire line of Werewolf was rendered dickless.

Which goes back to my earlier statement that if you even suggest taking the "rage" out of Werewolf, it means that you do not "get" Werewolf. No one is angry that WTF took the dog rape out of Werewolf. No one wants to play WTF because nWoD doesn't support killing people with claws as a valid life aspiration.

-Username17
Sadly because they nuked the forums from way back when I don't have a link, but the designers during the ramp up to nWOD said that they were bringing all character types to the same level of parity, and that meant hitting the werewolves with a nerf stick. They specifically said that the idea was that a starting vampire could feasibly take out a starting werewolf in a straight up fight, because "the community" made it clear that those kinds of disparities were not desired.

Now I'll agree where they went from there nerfed *everything* but at one point the nWOD devs openly admitted that Werewolves were getting hit with the nerf bat to bring them more in line with vampires. I guess it's arguable that they did this because of the at the time constant whining that was going on in the forums, or maybe they just drank sterno and royally brain-fucked themselves.

Either I guess is a compelling argument.
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Post by BoxCrayonTales »

FrankTrollman wrote:But if you're going to have Demons at all, you're pretty much committed to having at least one alternate dimension that people can interact with. And you could very plausibly have as many as half a dozen without hitting peoples' complexity limits (assuming that none of the worlds are as stupidly complicated as Werewolf's Umbra, where every houseplant and lamppost could talk and had magic powers). I can certainly imagine people deciding to put more worlds into their World of Darkness Heartbreaker than I did - just not a lot more.
Not necessarily. Changeling: The Lost, Demon: The Fallen, and World of Darkness: Inferno more or less made those places into death traps. This frees up conceptual space, no?

You're going to have to define what you mean by "demon." Are we talking fallen angels seeking redemption/revenge, YHWH's prosecuting attorney out to tempt and punish sinners, or alien invaders that exalt in vice and sin? All of those result in very different stories.
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