Frank (...darn it >_>):
I've heard that argument ("You can't believe in an omni-God and still have free will") at least a hundred times, literally, and I'm really starting to get tired of it, because it's
not true.
I'll start with a parallel. Most of us have probably heard that old "God can't create a rock that's too big for Him to lift, and thus isn't omnipotent" line. Which is similar, but has a much easier refutation: no amount of "power" can create something that cannot logically exist, and an infinitely massive rock cannot exist given that infinity is a contentless mathematical concept; ergo the question is invalid-- but you're free a posit a rock of any
given size, and I could then answer the question ("Yes").
This one's a lot thornier, so my reply might get long (and this will probably be my last one for awhile-- I have writing to do tonight for another project, and our Christmas vacation starts tomorrow evening and I won't be back until Thursday); I apologize.
Heck, you have to believe in a being that has powers unlimited by anything (even its own powers, whatever that means). That doesn't make sense.
You're right, it doesn't make sense. Which is why I [and most Christian apologists] don't seriously believe it. We believe that God is bound by logic, the same as anything else; and theories about Him can be found logical or not just like anything else. So let me get this one on the table: neither the Bible nor myself teaches that God's powers defy logic. He has "all power," but can't do things force cannot do (like make a "squared triangle," another "gotcha!" I've heard before). He is all knowing, but not in the way we might think (I'll get to this next, it's the bulk of the reply, after all). He can perform miracles of circumvention of
natural law, but he can't perform "nonsense" in violation of the law of noncontradiction.
With that out of the way, on to important things.
You have to believe that there's an all-knowing, all powerful GOD, and you have to believe that you personally have free will at the same time.
OK. You didn't state it, but I've heard this argument enough times that I'm pretty sure what your point is--
If God has all knowledge, then he knows what you're going to do before you do it, and thus you never truly had the free will to do anything else (and if that's wrong, please correct me).
Now-- and this is for everyone else, because I know you already know this, Frank-- the Law of Noncontradiction is the fundamental law of logic, and it basically states that "Something cannot be both itself and something else at the same time and in the same relationship" (or A != not-A). As an example, the statement "I am a Paladin and a Sorcerer" would be contradictory in AD&D, unless you were referring to different timeframes (such as losing your Paladinship and becoming a Fighter, and then dual-classing) or different relationships (you converted your character to 3E where such a build is legal).
The reason why I point that out is because Frank's statement makes a logical assumption that's not correct-- that God's omniscience comes
before the decision-making process. On the contrary, God is timeless ("I Am yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8)-- a logical state of being for the guy who created the universe (and thus the existence of space-time), and in no way logically impossible, just unproven; which is entirely a different question.
So think about it this way: God knows everything that happens because to Him it
has happened and
is happening and
will happen all at the same "time." To God, existence is kind of like a movie reel-- everything's there, and he can see it; but until He pushes the Play button it hasn't "happened." And we, who are in the movie; can't see anything but the present.
I think God really
was surprised when Satan rebelled, and when Adam listened to him instead of God Himself. I believe he really didn't know if Abraham was going to sacrifice his son to God or not until he was ready to do so-- and it was then that God provided a sacrifice, like he had been planning all along. Similarly, I believe when God makes a prophecy that he's not so much making a
statement of fact (after all, I don't think it would be very special to prophesy "The Muslims will attack us!" on 9/12/2001) but a
promise-- something that he promises to bring about through various circumstances. For example, I also believe that Jesus was born when he was because it was the best time in all history that also fulfilled all those prophecies from Daniel and Isaiah... and it happened because Caesar Augustus wanted more taxes.
"Omniscience" as a concept obviously doesn't appear in the Bible. But when God says he knows "all things" and that "nothing is hidden from him," that in no way requires
foreknowledge-- just knowledge, period.
So yes, you do have free will (of a sort-- the human nature is a fallen one, and many people literally
don't have the free will to make certain decisions due to disease or weakness (and of course none of us have the "free will" to decide to live forever, heh)). When you write an angry post right here on this forum, God knows... but he knows
because you've written it, not
before you did. He
could have stopped you, sure, just like other factors that God knows in the same way might have (like a power outage), but he didn't, and your free will... er, willed it.
I do have to admit that I don't understand exactly how a timeless being interacts with our world and its continuity, but I do know that it's 1) possible and 2) the best explanation I have, so I continue to believe it. I mean, if I couldn't believe in things I didn't understand; I wouldn't believe in quantum physics or George Bush.
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I don't know how relevant to the conversation this might be, but it might be interesting, so here you go. I was raised in a Christian household that went to church every Sunday (and sometimes Wednesdays, ech :\), but like many teenagers I was a "doubter" and drifted away for awhile. Early in high school I decided [quite
unlike most teenagers, heh] to look into philosophy and theology, and after studying some things [as best I could, heh, it's a bit tough to jump from the Bible to Nietzsche to
Critique of Pure Reason when you're 15] I ended up going back to Christianity.
It's pretty simple-- if you accept a truly materialistic worldview, you end up having to take a lot of things on faith, too, and in exchange you get... nothing. If you're right, life sucks and then you die; if you're wrong... well, life sucks
when you die. So that coupled with plenty of evidence to suggest intelligent design (even to this day, I haven't heard of a good rebuttal to Behe that didn't involve plenty of uses of the word "assume") led me to look for
which God... and once you get there, the Christian one is the best choice.
That's not to say that it doesn't take faith, and that I don't have doubts or regrets-- far from it. But despite years of searching, and debating with people all across the belief spectrum (and with typically more of an open mind than I'd usually get in return, heh :\); that hasn't changed.
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Catharz--
1) There are people who believe in Christianity, and are suffering greatly. These people suffer so greatly they pray for death.
OK, I see now. If it helps, my first response was to Lago's post quoting Mark Twain, who obviously
didn't have the Christian perspective on life and death, so I didn't assume one. I also see we've been talking about two different things here... again, just assume my previous posts were talking purely about "temporal life"-- here on earth-- and not assuming an afterlife. Sorry if that was confusing.
As for
this line of discussion, though, I think you're a bit off the mark. I mean,
Ever since Eve commited the Orginal Sin, living hasn't been a choice.
This isn't true. "Living," as opposed to dying, is a choice that anyone can make as long as they have access to the tools to commit suicide. I mean, let's not overthink this one; my point really was that obvious. *laughs*
Now, I do know people that have prayed for death, but again; that wasn't what Twain was talking about. The Christian belief these days tends to be "acceptance"-- if someone dies, then God wanted to call them "home"; if they made it through, then obviously God still had work for them to do. A bit simplistic, sure, but it reassures the people still alive.
If I were a good Christian, I would pray for death every day because Heaven is just that good.
This reminds me of another guy I argued with
years back, who went on an absurdist rant about how if Christianity is true children who die before the "age of accountability" to sin go to Heaven, then why not kill them all and not risk them growing up and making the wrong choice?
Of course, the problem with the "Captain Infanticide" approach is that it assumes that all lives are in a vaccuum and affect no one else. If you killed Billy Graham at childbirth-- one man who saved millions-- then you are giving up the chances to win other people while simultaneously ending human existence (which God has a problem with).
Anyway, I said all that to say this (and no, I'm not accusing you of saying anything like the above, heh): Heaven
is that good, but it's supposed to be a reward-- something to look forward to to get us through the hard parts of life. Wanting to die instead of living for God as long as you have a choice is wrong (among other things, it's totally against the spirit of the
Great Commission).
2) However, because they are Christian, they don't kill themselves. They know that if God is merciful and kills them, they go to Heaven, and that if they kill themselves, they go to Hell. And so they suffer.
Like Waesel pointed out, the notion that suicide is a one-way ticket to Hell is a Catholic belief, and not found in the Bible (like most Catholic beliefs, but
that's another rant :] ). I do agree that euthanasia isn't a Christian option because it takes away the possibility of God's intervention (I've heard enough stories of "miracle recoveries" against all medical odds to seriously believe that), but if someone is 95 years old and doesn't want to be put on life support to wait for an inevitable decline... I wouldn't begrudge them that choice. But:
But remember that according to Christianity, "living" is no more a choice than "dying." The choice is follow God and get eternal Paradise, or don't follow God and be tortured forever.
The question about choosing to follow God or not is only about your
afterlife, which will eventually come about no matter what you do (the death rate is 100%, after all). And yes, you basically choose whether to accept Christ's offer of redemption, or not.
I'm starting to lose track of where you were going with this one, Catharz, so let me just wrap it up with a quip I've been using for awhile and see if that helps (probably not, but oh well >_>)-- "The difference between Islam and Christianity is that, while both believe the unsaved are doomed to hell; Christians aren't obsessed with sending you there."
Your eternal destination is between you and God; but for the time being we all have lives on earth to live, which are just as important... just infinitely shorter.