Fighters Jumping on Dragons

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:36 pm

Stubbazubba wrote:I am yet to hear an argument why action movie tropes shouldn't apply to staying on a dragon.

How about, because action movie tropes should never apply to anything ever in a cooperative storytelling game. There is only one action movie trope, and it is repeated infinitely. That one trope is: "Are you the protagonist? If so, you succeed, if not you fail."

So fuck that. "Action Movie Tropes" tells you that the only acceptable resolution mechanic is "If Protagonist, succeed, if not fail."

So next time you are playing D&D, just don't ever pick up a die. Use "Action Movie Tropes" as your resolution mechanic, and see how much fun your game is. Spoiler alert: None.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:42 pm

Kaelik wrote:There is only one action movie trope, and it is repeated infinitely. That one trope is: "Are you the protagonist? If so, you succeed, if not you fail."

Ugh, this is embarrassing to everyone here. This is a deliberate and inaccurate over-simplification on so many levels. You're not even saying this in good faith, so what should I expect?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Tue May 12, 2015 12:52 am

Even if we accept that the protagonists will ultimately triumph (which probably happens more often than not), even in action movies the protagonist usually suffers setbacks and failures. Usually that is the entire second act.

Nobody here has suggested that the VAH automatically succeed, nor have they suggested that the VAH have an increased chance of success against a magical character unless that character possesses relevant characteristics (such as relevant skills, attributes or abilities). Determining exactly what those relevant characteristics are is a question for a specific rule set. But in general riding an unwilling mount is something we expect to come up a lot . A blanket rejection of even making the attempt paints you as absolutely the worst type of GM. This reaction is sheer incredulity that you (Lago & Kaelik) would have that in common with grognard neckbeards. I'm further amazed that you haven't reversed your stance when given ample opportunity.

This type of outright dismissal is a characteristic only found in the absolute worst, most tyrannical GMs. While there ought to be rules to protect players from GMS like you, it is also a shame that you're declaring for team douche.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 12, 2015 1:05 am

deaddmwalking wrote:This type of outright dismissal is a characteristic only found in the absolute worst, most tyrannical GMs. While there ought to be rules to protect players from GMS like you, it is also a shame that you're declaring for team douche.

Then you are calling literally every GM in universe the same level of absolute worst tyrannical except Vincent Baker. Because aside from him, absolutely zero GMs allow you to go out into an alley and wait for a woman to walk through, and then rape her over and over. And aside from ShitWorld (and FATAL?), no games have rules for your raping people.

I mean look, I get that you think your jumping on a dragon is super fucking cool and totally sweet, and definitely awesome just like Vincent Baker thinks all the same things about RPG rape scenes. But spoiler alert, I find your stupid forced dragon riding fetish to be shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people at the table, and just generally an uncomfortable addition to the game that makes me want to get the fuck out of the room as fast as possible.

So when I play in games, I don't want that happening, and when I design games I want them to be designed to make that happen as little as possible.

You can have whatever weird shitty preferences you want, but for you to be literally incapable of seeing that other people don't share your preferences, even when you are being told that explicitly, is very fucking weird.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 1:13 am

Kaelik wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:This type of outright dismissal is a characteristic only found in the absolute worst, most tyrannical GMs. While there ought to be rules to protect players from GMS like you, it is also a shame that you're declaring for team douche.
Then you are calling literally every GM in universe the same level of absolute worst tyrannical except Vincent Baker. Because aside from him, absolutely zero GMs allow you to go out into an alley and wait for a woman to walk through, and then rape her over and over. And aside from ShitWorld (and FATAL?), no games have rules for your raping people.

I mean look, I get that you think your jumping on a dragon is super fucking cool and totally sweet, and definitely awesome just like Vincent Baker thinks all the same things about RPG rape scenes. But spoiler alert, I find your stupid forced dragon riding fetish to be shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people at the table, and just generally an uncomfortable addition to the game that makes me want to get the fuck out of the room as fast as possible.

So when I play in games, I don't want that happening, and when I design games I want them to be designed to make that happen as little as possible.

You can have whatever weird shitty preferences you want, but for you to be literally incapable of seeing that other people don't share your preferences, even when you are being told that explicitly, is very fucking weird.

When watching movies, tv shows, and playing games in which people jump on top of large monsters to stab them do you translate to be rape every time you see it? Was Shadow of the Colossus one big uncomfortable rape simulator for you?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:05 am

Kaelik wrote:But spoiler alert, I find your stupid forced dragon riding fetish to be shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people at the table, and just generally an uncomfortable addition to the game that makes me want to get the fuck out of the room as fast as possible.

This is either an utterly perplexingly stupid view for Kaelik to hold, or he is a lying sack of shit who has gone to incredible lengths just because of his stupid little fighter fucking over fetish.

Seriously, guy jumps on big monster, tries to hold on, maybe tries stabbing it if he succeeds.

This is not controversial or even considered undesirable anywhere ever except in the fever dreams of mad men.

Yes, blah blah you hate non-magical characters and demand they can't have nice stuff, have fun with that whole thing you obsess over forever, but there are limits where you cross the line into utter insanity and this is rather clearly one of them.

Seriously. "Some guy jumped on a dragon... GAME RUINED!" Fucking pull the other one already. NO ONE says that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:18 am

MGuy wrote:When watching movies, tv shows, and playing games in which people jump on top of large monsters to stab them do you translate to be rape every time you see it? Was Shadow of the Colossus one big uncomfortable rape simulator for you?

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of analogy. Usually analogies are used to compare specific aspects of a thing. So for example:

"You eyes are blue like the ocean." Very rarely means that your eyes are a liquid that covers 75% of the earths surface.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:41 am

Kaelik wrote:
MGuy wrote:When watching movies, tv shows, and playing games in which people jump on top of large monsters to stab them do you translate to be rape every time you see it? Was Shadow of the Colossus one big uncomfortable rape simulator for you?
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of analogy. Usually analogies are used to compare specific aspects of a thing. So for example:

"You eyes are blue like the ocean." Very rarely means that your eyes are a liquid that covers 75% of the earths surface.

Oh no I get it. I get that you saying that performing this nonsexual move is analogous to rape. Apparently you're unable to cope with the fact that you just did.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:45 am

Just don't engage him. He's just trolling at this point.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 12, 2015 2:51 am

MGuy wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
MGuy wrote:When watching movies, tv shows, and playing games in which people jump on top of large monsters to stab them do you translate to be rape every time you see it? Was Shadow of the Colossus one big uncomfortable rape simulator for you?
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of analogy. Usually analogies are used to compare specific aspects of a thing. So for example:

"You eyes are blue like the ocean." Very rarely means that your eyes are a liquid that covers 75% of the earths surface.
Oh no I get it. I get that you saying that performing this nonsexual move is analogous to rape. Apparently you're unable to cope with the fact that you just did.

I am saying that it is analogous to rape, in that I don't want it in my games, and I am relatively certain that most people I am talking to don't want rape in their games, so they could, if they weren't being deliberately fucking obtuse, understand that there are some things that don't need a chance of success or a possibility, or even rules, because you don't want them in the fucking game.

I choose to use a specific example that I suspect everyone would agree with, because you fucks have already proven to have such poor taste that you fap to how forced dragon riding has to be mandatory, so if I said something like "A hobo with a golf club beating the shit out of superman" for all I know, you fucks would talk about how cool and awesome that is.

But for people who aren't so stupid that think "blue like the ocean" means "literally identical to the ocean in all respects, even ones that have nothing to do with color" they can see that the common element is the not wanting it in the fucking game part.

Just like you don't want your game to have rape, I don't want my game to have forced dragon riding. Not because forced dragon riding is exactly like rape in all possible respects such that I literally can't tell the difference, but for the actual reason I said, which is that my personal preferences are opposed to the inclusion in a game.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:01 am

There's an ongoing joke in South Park where Cartman basically insists people are fucking him whenever he doesn't get his way. It's not that I don't get you. I do. It's just that it's a joke and it is very funny to see someone not only type that shit up but also try to defend it.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:05 am

I'm sorry, Kaelik, should we start prefacing our posts with trigger warnings for you?

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:16 am

Some people in this thread need to revisit the definition of analogy, rather than triggering on the fact that someone dared to compare something to rape. That's tumblr levels of bullshit guys, come on.

Not to mention it's strawmanning in its finest tradition by focusing on how someone said something rather than focusing on, you know, what they fucking said.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:41 am

No one is confused by his little analogy. And what he said? It's bullshit. I even made a comparison to other sources of media that have he exact maneuver he's crying rape over. Shadow of the Colossus is all about some dude climbing on a big monster to stab it. You know, the thing he is crying rape over. If he's actually like that in real life I hope he brings a rape whistle to games because that's a common maneuver people expect to see.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:57 am

Jesus fucking christ MGuy that was as idiotic as using rape as an analogy to people like you who don't fucking understand what an analogy is. What you SHOULD be focusing on is:

I mean look, I get that you think your jumping on a dragon is super fucking cool and totally sweet, and definitely awesome just like Vincent Baker thinks all the same things about RPG rape scenes. But spoiler alert, I find your stupid forced dragon riding fetish to be shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people at the table, and just generally an uncomfortable addition to the game that makes me want to get the fuck out of the room as fast as possible.

Guess what else is shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people, and an uncomfortable addition to games? That's why it's an apt analogy from Kaelik's point of view, and why you're a goddamned Tumblr-like idiot for focusing on the fact that someone dared to say 'rape' and compare it to another non-rape situation.

Good fucking god, how thick is your fucking skull?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:05 am

RelentlessImp wrote:Jesus fucking christ MGuy that was as idiotic as using rape as an analogy to people like you who don't fucking understand what an analogy is. What you SHOULD be focusing on is:
I mean look, I get that you think your jumping on a dragon is super fucking cool and totally sweet, and definitely awesome just like Vincent Baker thinks all the same things about RPG rape scenes. But spoiler alert, I find your stupid forced dragon riding fetish to be shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people at the table, and just generally an uncomfortable addition to the game that makes me want to get the fuck out of the room as fast as possible.
Guess what else is shitty, extremely unfun, disempowering for other people, and an uncomfortable addition to games? That's why it's an apt analogy from Kaelik's point of view, and why you're a goddamned Tumblr-like idiot for focusing on the fact that someone dared to say 'rape' and compare it to another non-rape situation.

Good fucking god, how thick is your fucking skull?

How thick is your skull? No fucking body is confused about the analogy. No one. You reposting it in bold doesn't change that he's crying rape over something stupid. It's a fucking joke that anyone does it and you are fucking defending it. The fuck is wrong with you? It's still a STUPID analogy and him crying about it is STUPID for the reasons I've already gone over. Quit fucking defending it unless you want to make the same dumb point.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:10 am

You are a complete fucking moron MGuy by saying that someone is crying rape over using a FUCKING ANALOGY. Here, here, have a fucking look at the very fucking definition of analogy because you are obviously too fucking stupid to comprehend it:

a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
"an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"

a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

Where does this say that using an analogy means they are literally equating to the subject of the fucking analogy? Screaming that someone is crying rape over an analogy that uses it as a fucking comparison point would mean, somewhere in this definition, that it "analogy" means "Point A == Point B" rather than "Point A and Point B share some similarities".

Now shut the fuck up with the 'crying rape' bullshit because it's a strawman fucking argument made up of equal parts shit, illogic, and willfully misconstruing what words mean.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:14 am

Oh thank you for pointing that out! I mean it's not as though I didn't point out that he said using a fucking nonsexual maneuver was analogous to rape already and moved on. For someone who is being pushy telling 'me' to cover something else you sure seem stuck on it. Is rape your trigger or something?

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:17 am

People being idiots when the word is used is my trigger, yes. Why? Are you triggered by people who want to smack the stupid out of people?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:18 am

RelentlessImp wrote:People being idiots when the word is used is my trigger, yes. Why? Are you triggered by people who want to smack the stupid out of people?

Ahh well I'm sure you can make a very deep an interesting tumblr post about it.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:23 am

This is why you never say the r-word. Everyone immediately turns into an idiot. And other reasons.

MGuy, you are absolutely confused. I have no horse in this race because it's a fighter thread and I'm okay thanks maybe some other time, but compare the following two sentences:
"This thread is raping me."
"This thread is like rape, in that it's something I'd rather have not experienced."

Notice how the latter does not actually say the thread is rape, it just draws a parallel between two aspects that they share. Notice how the thing Kaelik did was like the latter, and not like the former. Notice how your "Shadow of the Colossus is a rape simulator, huh?" joke only makes sense in the context of the former, and not in the context of the latter.

Here let me show you what you just did:
DSM: "Masturbation is a lot like picking your nose; nobody admits they do it and it's awkward as hell getting caught."
MGuy: "You don't masturbate by sticking your fingers up your nose, idiot."

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:26 am

Some people just like being bundles of sticks and straws pretending to be human, I guess.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:28 am

I'd be down with a Climb-Ride/Grapple mechanic being a basic combat option against a larger opponent. Something you can just do, not even need to burn a feat for.

Not an easy check mind you, but something anyone can try against an opponent large enough that it could serve as a mount if it were friendly.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:46 am

DSMatticus wrote:This is why you never say the r-word. Everyone immediately turns into an idiot. And other reasons.

MGuy, you are absolutely confused. I have no horse in this race because it's a fighter thread and I'm okay thanks maybe some other time, but compare the following two sentences:
"This thread is raping me."
"This thread is like rape, in that it's something I'd rather have not experienced."

Notice how the latter does not actually say the thread is rape, it just draws a parallel between two aspects that they share. Notice how the thing Kaelik did was like the latter, and not like the former. Notice how your "Shadow of the Colossus is a rape simulator, huh?" joke only makes sense in the context of the former, and not in the context of the latter.

Here let me show you what you just did:
DSM: "Masturbation is a lot like picking your nose; nobody admits they do it and it's awkward as hell getting caught."
MGuy: "You don't masturbate by sticking your fingers up your nose, idiot."

MGuy wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
MGuy wrote:When watching movies, tv shows, and playing games in which people jump on top of large monsters to stab them do you translate to be rape every time you see it? Was Shadow of the Colossus one big uncomfortable rape simulator for you?
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of analogy. Usually analogies are used to compare specific aspects of a thing. So for example:

"You eyes are blue like the ocean." Very rarely means that your eyes are a liquid that covers 75% of the earths surface.
Oh no I get it. I get that you saying that performing this nonsexual move is analogous to rape. Apparently you're unable to cope with the fact that you just did.

kaelik wrote:I am saying that it is analogous to rape, in that I don't want it in my games, and I am relatively certain that most people I am talking to don't want rape in their games, so they could, if they weren't being deliberately fucking obtuse, understand that there are some things that don't need a chance of success or a possibility, or even rules, because you don't want them in the fucking game.

I choose to use a specific example that I suspect everyone would agree with, because you fucks have already proven to have such poor taste that you fap to how forced dragon riding has to be mandatory, so if I said something like "A hobo with a golf club beating the shit out of superman" for all I know, you fucks would talk about how cool and awesome that is.

But for people who aren't so stupid that think "blue like the ocean" means "literally identical to the ocean in all respects, even ones that have nothing to do with color" they can see that the common element is the not wanting it in the fucking game part.

Just like you don't want your game to have rape, I don't want my game to have forced dragon riding. Not because forced dragon riding is exactly like rape in all possible respects such that I literally can't tell the difference, but for the actual reason I said, which is that my personal preferences are opposed to the inclusion in a game.

So yea... I got it. Don't know how you think I missed it. That's why I asked if he's equally uncomfortable seeing it in the various pieces of media that is relevant to the kinds of things that can and should be emulated in the game. To which he responded by explaining to me that he was doing exactly what I said he was doing.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue May 12, 2015 4:51 am

This thread is resulting most informative... an opinion on this thread is enough to discern which people I'd never want as GM.