d20 Build Your-Own-Class Variant

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:16 am

Framing it as a "well just copy someone else's Frankenstein hack job of incompatible ideas that was historically contemporary to the 15 year old system you inexplicably want to paste dead portions of to your incompatible new material to, it'll be pretty much the same!" isn't an improvement.

Yeah, I know mutants and masterminds has ostensibly released new editions, no I haven't seen them, go ahead, surprise me and tell me they are anything other than exactly what I expect them to be.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:38 pm

Stop saying "15 year old system" and start saying "Most extensively play-tested and solid system" and the reason people keep returning to the 3e well stops being so baffling.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:13 pm

erik wrote:Stop saying "15 year old system" and start saying "Most extensively play-tested and solid system" and the reason people keep returning to the 3e well stops being so baffling.

You don't get to trumpet extensive playtesting and proven quality AND hack out the majority of it and replace it with something untested and incompatible at the same time.

If the playtested quality is just that awesome then thats why you return to actual 3e, not a few randomly selected pieces of 3e wedged into your new Frankenstinien attempt to relive yet reimagine the past like an OSR wanker.

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:49 am

Using the same parts and same mechanics largely. Just using a different method of construction. And people have done enough tweaking to have mastery over how effective certain parts are that this is far from reinventing the wheel.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:56 am

erik wrote:Using the same parts and same mechanics largely. Just using a different method of construction. And people have done enough tweaking to have mastery over how effective certain parts are that this is far from reinventing the wheel.

I feel pretty much all I need to do is disagree with every individual part of that entire statement.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:05 am

PhoneLobster wrote:
erik wrote:Using the same parts and same mechanics largely. Just using a different method of construction. And people have done enough tweaking to have mastery over how effective certain parts are that this is far from reinventing the wheel.
I feel pretty much all I need to do is disagree with every individual part of that entire statement.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:53 am

Really now Prak? You want to go with that as your totes rational reason for supporting "Rotting Zombie Frankenstein, the RPG design plan!", and also rely on it to differentiate you from the OSR wanker I'm suggesting you are/are becoming.

Pro tip, that's the exactly the sort of thing OSR wankers would post at exactly this point in exactly this discussion about exactly their own rotting zombie Frankenstein ideas.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:06 am

Look, I don't claim that d20 is TEH BESTEST RPG EVAH. But it's the least bad RPG I know of, and I can actually put together a group. If I say I want to play "D20, but with this 30 page house rule document" I can still get a game going. If I talk to people about playing GURPS, the people I know will immediately lose interest. Hell, I can't even get some of the people I game with to use M&M, they'd rather play HERO for some mysterious reason.

If you know a better system than d20 that I can get people to actually play, I'm all ears. But if you're just going to shit all over the very idea of tweaking d20 "because it's 15 years old" in a thread that is specifically about that idea, I'm sorry, but you're just being a fucking crybaby.

I really don't give a shit that you have some kind of hateboner for d20 or modifying d20. I really don't care that you think tweaking d20, or even giving it the massive rewrite it needs makes using d20 pointless. I really don't care if this makes me an "OSR wanker." Because at least I can actually find a fucking game with d20, even a heavily modified and rewritten d20, rather than wanking over my dice.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:38 am

Prak wrote:Look, I don't claim that d20 is TEH BESTEST RPG EVAH. But it's the least bad RPG I know of

That's an internal contradiction if I ever saw one right there. Mostly because you aimed at trying to differentiate between "Best available" and "Perfect", but you missed and actually just said best available twice.

Yes, I'm nit picking I know.

But even if we pretend you said what you meant to then...

But if you're just going to shit all over the very idea of tweaking d20

We hit the problem that you keep pretending that this is a "tweak", and it's very much not a fucking "tweak". These are giant major changes, you don't get to throw out and arbitrarily change huge parts of the system and retain your "least bad" system status.

If you did then d20Modern would be just as "least bad" as d20 regular.

And d20 modern is a system with LESS dramatic changes between it and d20 D&D than what is being proposed here.

and I can actually put together a group. If I say I want to play "D20, but with this 30 page house rule document" I can still get a game going.

Your difficulty in convincing RPG players to play RPGs is remarkable, personally I, and pretty much all the GMs I've observed have next to no difficulty in getting a group to play basically any RPG system at all, including some remarkably bullshit ones.

But worse, you still misrepresent the ideas in this thread as a minor change, I'm not seeing anything in this thread that is EVER going to function as a god damn 30 page house rule document tacked onto the SRD.

If I talk to people about playing GURPS, the people I know will immediately lose interest. Hell, I can't even get some of the people I game with to use M&M, they'd rather play HERO for some mysterious reason.

Wait. So right in your argument that d20 is the only RPG system anyone will ever agree to play you note that they sometimes rather play something that is not d20, and declare it perplexing.

And then you note that your model d20/hybrid points based classless game you want to make classless D&D out of... happens to be a game you have difficulty getting people to play.

I mean WHAT THE FUCK. Your whole argument has devolved to "look it has to be basically M&M because d20 is the only thing I can get people to play... BUT by the way, I can't get people to play M&M!"

Because at least I can actually find a fucking game with d20, even a heavily modified and rewritten d20

Except, by your own admission. You actually can't.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:41 pm

Can you stop this stupid now? I was actually interested in this thread before the circular bullshit started.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:45 pm

I might give the fighting-game heartbreaker a go once I finish Space Madness!

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:05 am

Some more random thoughts on the whole fighting-game heartbreaker thing. Because it's on my mind. I'm generally looking at the following:

* Standard six attributes

* "Average" for humans is level 3; 6 hit points per level, attributes 10 (+0 modifier), +3 BAB, +3/+3/+3 on saves; PCs start at level 3.

* "Level" is a measure of relative supernatural power; it caps how much Energy you can spend per turn, how much you can boost attributes (see below), and how much you can raise BAB, saves, etc. It does not directly affect what you can learn or use, but the basic DC for all effects is 10 + Level + attribute modifier.

* Classless, but subtly different from the classless system presented in post number one. Characters can buy techniques, styles, and school ranks; techniques are standalone abilities, styles are special combat maneuvers (usually with techniques or school rank prerequisites), school ranks are specific abilities that improve as you buy more ranks.

* The fundamental mechanic is the Energy Pool. Depending on your character concept/culture you might call this Qi, Psi points, etc. Doesn't matter. Mechanically, you spend Energy from your pool to fuel supernatural techniques and abilities; you are limited in this by: how much Energy you have, your Level (which determines the max Energy you can spend per turn, which likewise puts an upper level on the techniques or abilities you can use), and what you know.

If you know a very powerful technique but don't have the Energy to use it, doesn't do you much good - but if you don't know it at all, you can't invent it on the spot either, no matter how much energy you have. This is designed to work out like a very low-level Dragonball/One Piece/Naruto style fighting system, where the upper level of "normal" fighters can still kick ass against fighters with flashy supernatural abilities through strategy and superior fighting skill.

* The most basic technique is "Boost" (or whatever name you want to call it); you spend Energy to raise Attributes and/or Level by a certain amount for a certain period of time (there'll be a table, so for example a moderate boost to all three physical attributes for 10 minutes costs as much as a significant boost to one attribute for the same period). Boosted Strength increases damage, boosted Dexterity improves reaction, boosted Constitution gives temporary hit points, boosted Level means you can spend more Energy (and yes, if you have enough energy you can continue boosting your Level), etc. Boosting can be done all in the same action.

* Energy regenerates over time, but not quick enough to give you your second wind in the middle of a match. There are Techniques that allow you to cannibalize hit points or take attribute damage in exchange for Energy.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:32 am

@Ancient History : Why bother with the 6 attributes?

You could honestly probably tie most rolls to their power level.
Then you just pick the few things your hero excels at (or is terrible at... for what ever reason).

Something like :
Strong : +2 to STREMF! challenges
Dumb : -1 to Int challenges

Everything else is simply rolled without bonuses for exceptionalism.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:42 am

The six attributes is probably a legacy thing. I kind of like that M&M3 got rid of the score/modifier set up and just uses the modifier, so your abilities run from -5 to +20, I'm not a fan of them adding two more attributes though, and as has been said on here before, you can get by on fewer attributes.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:56 am

In most RPGs you get away with between 3 (Tri Stat, GURPS) and 9 (WoD) stats; 6 isn't absolutely necessary except most of the stuff I'd want to steal for this heartbreaker would be from d20, so that would make it moderately easier.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:04 am

Ancient History wrote:Some more random thoughts on the whole fighting-game heartbreaker thing.

At this point I think a list of precisely what is being "kept" from d20 might not be a bad idea. It shouldn't be hard, it looks like its a pretty damn small list.

As I'm reading it now it's going to be some basic attribute and stat names and maybe a portion of basic combat mechanics and... actually and nothing else at all. From my reading of the changes you are making that looks like the only bit of d20 you are likely to be "keeping".

I want this confirmation on this in part so as to gloat over how wrong the "this is just a tweak!" people have been, but also because I want you to put down the stark truth into writing and look at it and ask yourself whether you are really "keeping" anything recognizable as d20 at all and why the hell you are even bothering.

I mean hell, at the point it appears to be at right now you are talking about a system with less deliberately in common with d20 than some systems that are intended to be entirely different accidentally have.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:18 am

It would probably have a bit in common with some d20-lite systems, although yeah, I'm thinking of a fairly radical shaving-down and reconsolidation.

Because let's be honest: I like the idea that goes behind soulknife, and Incarnum chakra magic armor whatsits and all that. I like psions and psychic warriors. I like spellswords and eldritch knight-type things. I like monk prestige classes. And I have been watching far too much One Piece and Dragonbal and Naruto over the last six months. So I know that you can't build Goku at basically any level of d20 as it stands. And that's kind of painful to me, because d20 has a lot of KEWL POWERZ and feats for super-monk unarmed combat that never get used because by the time you can get to the point where you can use them, the wizard is casting METEO.

So I was thinking the basics of the health system, basics of the combat/positioning system, stealing class mechanics and feats blind (to be converted into appropriate Energy-fueled abilities - I mean, you can see Overchannel reworked there already), but leaving the whole spellcasting (and most of the spells) on the floor, and most of the skill system too - it's less of an issue at lower levels, but I kind of like the potential for Super Carpenter Kung Fu Guy, if I could work the DCs out so it's not fucked.

And at the end of the day, it doesn't have to be d20 as long as the numbers work out. But as a beginning, y'know, I was thinking a very stripped d20 system.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:18 am

I think the core idea is to take class abilities and spells from D&D and rebuild them as part of a point buy system.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:35 am

Meanwhile, this thread has inspired me to just do TNE cultures and classes using M&M3e. I'll post a thread soon, but the jist of it is:

Every character gets a 30 point race, a 30 point culture and +1PL per class level. Race + Culture gives you capped defenses, some equipment and below-cap offense. Each class level gives you +1 to every defense, +1 to two skills off the class skills list, one Tactic and one Strategy. Tactics give you +class level to a single level appropriate offensive power (putting them at -4 relative to a character's defenses, before equipment and buffs) while strategies give you utility-focused powers. Both tactics and strategies are arrays; you can use one Tactic and one Strategy active at a given time, but changing is a free action. Balance-wise, it's expected that you will use some combination of party-wide buffs or equipment to bring your attacks up to the power level caps.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:58 am

M&M3 is already largely a statless system, which maintains ability titles as a shorthand, and to a lesser degree as legacy. The main advantage of getting rid of stats and making things entirely effect-driven would be in helping make a given character sheet more transparent.

It's arguable that being able to trivially answer questions like "Which Character is More Intelligent?" is useful, but with the exception of affording ability check defaults when a skill or effect doesn't apply, each ability is almost always just the cost of its individuarl components with a free Innate modifier. Exceptions to that are how increasing Presence is never cost-effective, Agility's bonus to Initiative (1/.25PP) is free for stealthy acrobats, and increasing Intellect directly is worth it for characters with more than 4 skills reliant upon it. The Innate extra is mechanically a trade off of Immunity to Nullify/Inability to use in Power Stunts, and can help model a difference between natural abilities/training and, say, a Mr. Hyde potion. I think it might be easier to replace the extra with an Innate descriptor, and tweak the couple of remaining rules conflicts. The main one that comes to mind is how Toughness is the only defense that can't be increased past Stamina without it being an effect.