Religion?

[Username17]

1178883289[/unixtime]]Well this discussion took an interesting turn. And Frank, I'm not sure why you got I'm going to kick some animal-headed ass out of executing judgment upon the Egyptian gods, so let's just say that I disagree with your interpretation while acknowledging that it could be correct.

One goes into substantially more detail during Passover. There's this fun one:

And to all the gods of Egypt will I execute judgment -- I and no agent I am Jehova -- it is I and no other.

You say this one just before talking about the ten plagues and just after talking about the prayers to YHWH of the slaves. The interpretation is that YHWH personally took it on himself to defeat the gods of Egypt and to punish the Egyptians in solitary glory. There is divergeance then about whether this was to show that YHWH was a dramatically more powerful god of war than Set or Horus, or whether it was to prevent the Israelites from becoming stuck in a cycle of revenge by starting as a nation by slaughtering the Egyptians themselves.

But as to whether there were other gods for Jehova to kick the crap out of - of that there isn't any real debate. Jehova spends a lot of time beating up other gods in the old stories. Baal, Dagon, Set - they all take their turn and get the smack down.

The whole idea that there aren't any other gods for YHWH to fight with is a total aberration that is completely baseless in the source material taken from my desert forebears. You've got militant Rabbis who interpret the passage like this:

It was not enough for the Jews to be victorious. The Egyptian god -- their ideology -- also had to be wiped out.

And there are pacifist Rabbis who interpret the passage like this:

If the Jews had been allowed to participate in the vengeance upon Pharoh - even in self defense - they would have become like Pharoh.

But you're not going to find anybody in the original faith who is going to say that Jehova only pretended to fight other gods because there weren't really any other gods to fight - that's an insult to Jehova!

-Username17

[Crissa]

To argue that religion (and faith) doesn't instruct people to do bad things...

...You would have to find out the predominance of faith in criminals
...The predominance of faith in criminals vs those of the same economic stature

...Realise that there are books of stories that faithful take literally and as guidance of what to do; and these stories include killing and torturing other people.

Example:

There is a literal corelation between faith and gaybashing. There isn't a corelation between gaybashing and economic stature. The books have passages saying it's wrong to be gay. There are persons of faith who say it is right to take away the rights of those who are gay, and these seem to outnumber those who publically speak of acting against gay people as wrong. There is a corelation between places with those who say it is right to to take away the civil rights of those who are gay and places with higher rates of gay bashing.


Faith may have its good points. But to accept the good points is the chance to accept the bad points - and as a larger society, do we need that chance inherent in our world anymore?

We (as a society) don't accept let people do things which have a one in a million chance of killing them. Why should acceptance of faith be any different?

-Crissa

[Ramnza]

1178914197[/unixtime]
We (as a society) don't accept let people do things which have a one in a million chance of killing them. Why should acceptance of faith be any different?

Really? So, like drinking and smoking, people don't do these things because they don't have a chance of killing them, right?

[tzor]

1178914197[/unixtime]]There is a literal corelation between faith and gaybashing.

Bah humbug. I strongly disagree. There is a literal corelation between conserative orthodoxy and gaybashing. There is no correlation between "faith" and gaybashing. I'm sorry but this Secular Franciscan who considers himself with a pretty good modicum of faith won't sit by while he's tarred with a brush of gaybashing. It wouldn't be fair to my friends, my relatives, and all the people I knew in Key West Florida who were not only gay but many of whom had some degree of faith and I know they weren't self bashing!

There is an old expression for people who picked and choose from the Catholic Church, "Caffeteria Catholics." I find a lot of biblical conseratives of the same nature. They pick and choose from the Old Testament which sin they prefer to hate. Homosexuality is not well liked in the Old Testament. Everyone talks about Sodom, but what about that other poor guy who gets killed for trying not to get his brother's wife pregnant?

Shouldn't they be more concerned with the New Testament where there is almost nothing said on the subject but a whole lot about how divorce and remarriage is flat out wrong? Modern day pharisees the lot of them. Please don't drag "faith" into it.

(I didn't want that to be an outburst, but that was almost like driving an "or" wedge between my faith and some of my friends. And as I mentioned eariler the key word is "AND" not "exclusive or." I have my faith and my friends thank you very much and I hate people bashing either.)

[NineInchNall]

Um, causal correlations don't have to be 100% to be valid. Think of carcinogens. Exposure, even repeated and continued, to a carcinogen does not necessarily mean that a person will develop cancer, but the source in question is still a carcinogen. Faith is similar.

Yes. I went there. :tonguesmile:

[Catharz]

Faith has nothing to do with gays-bashing. It totally depends on what you ave faith in. If your faith is in the absolute righteousness of killing homosexuals, chances are that your faith will increase your prediliction towards gays-bashing.

If your faith is in 'the pure light of reason,' or 'the great bear god of manly manlyness,' you're much less prone to bashing gays (although the first may lead you to bashing religions and the second may make you a misogynist).

I'm a religious agnostic, and my irrational faith as a singularitarian has helped me through many hard times (although it may lead me to be a bit of a meatbag-basher).

[Cielingcat]

I worship the second one, by the way.

[JonSetanta]

Recently, the Catholic pope (the lame Nazi one, btw) has decreed abortion a sin (for now), punishable by excommunication.

I then proceeded to excommunicate him.

You Jews have it easy...

[User3]

1178919384[/unixtime]] Everyone talks about Sodom, but what about that other poor guy who gets killed for trying not to get his brother's wife pregnant?

But they need to use Onan to show that masturbation is evil!

Also, to expand on Frank's point, consider the Mi chamocha:
Mi chamocha, ba'elim, Adonai?
Mi kamocha, nedar bakodesh, nora tehilot, osei feleh?

which translates to:
Who is like you, Adonai, among other gods?
Who is, like you, glorious in holiness,
awesome in praises, doing miracles?

"among other gods" is often replaced with "among the mighty" for obvious reasons.

[Cielingcat]

1178930305[/unixtime]]Recently, the Catholic pope (the lame Nazi one, btw) has decreed abortion a sin (for now), punishable by excommunication.

I then proceeded to excommunicate him.

You Jews have it easy...

He's the Emperor, not a Nazi.

Also, I feel this to be fitting. The two scariest looking motherfuckers in modern politics. Whoever wins, we lose.

[PhoneLobster]

Actually both this pope and the previous one are/were vampires.

I mean come on, just LOOK at them...

[Cielingcat]

[PhoneLobster]

The emperor is just a fictional character from a movie, he was played by an actor.

The actor was a vampire.

[Cielingcat]

Fine, but will this vampire be able to defeat the iron hand of Russian totalitarianism?

[Catharz]

1178935784[/unixtime]]Fine, but will this vampire be able to defeat the iron hand of Russian totalitarianism?

That probably depends of if he's alienated the Jesuits or not. Get enough Jesuits and you can probably defeat anything. They're like gestalt Mujahideen/Scientists.

[Cielingcat]

Jesuits vs the KGB FSB.

[CalibronXXX]

1178910169[/unixtime]]
The whole idea that there aren't any other gods for YHWH to fight with is a total aberration that is completely baseless in the source material taken from my desert forebears.

-Username17

Oh, yeah, totally that's just a modern aberration, one of many that are propagated by hearsay born of incomplete information and an unfortunate desire by some to "modernize" the scripture. I still don't think God physically(spiritually, whateva) layed the smack down on the Egyptian gods though.

[tzor]

1178930643[/unixtime]]But they need to use Onan to show that masturbation is evil!

But Onan's sin wasn't masturbation. Onan's sin is why most banks have to state the following warning on certificates of deposit and on IRA accounts.

"Substantial penalties for early withdrawal."

I should point out that it has been a teaching of the Church since people in the church started writing about things like this that abortion is a sin. It is the deliberate killing of a human being, often for personal and selfish reasons. And by the way, sticking your finger at the teachings of the community and doing the opposite is a sure fire way to get yourself outside of the community. You see any pro-war pro-life democrats lately?

[Neeek]

1179004545[/unixtime]] You see any pro-war pro-life democrats lately?

No, but that's hardly an indication of anything regarding abortion: I don't know any pro-war democrats.

[User3]

1179004545[/unixtime]]

1178930643[/unixtime]]But they need to use Onan to show that masturbation is evil!

But Onan's sin wasn't masturbation.

Sorry for not making my sarcasm clearer. Maybe this will help:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[tzor]

1179007807[/unixtime]]No, but that's hardly an indication of anything regarding abortion: I don't know any pro-war democrats.

No, but it does point out that those who find themselves going against the core tenets of a group should not be surprised if their actions place themselves outside the group. The pope doesn't need to excommunicate, (or to place outside the group called the Catholic Church) causing public scandal by supporting things that are clearly against church teachings automatically excommunicates that person.

As for the Jesuits, this Franciscan will only quote the old saying he's heard. "Jesu's left and Jesu's right; a Jesuit for every fight!" Basically enough Jesuits will become self defeating as you will start to accumulate Jesuits of the opposite opinion.

I know of a pro-war democrat, but he turned to the grey side and is the only independent in the Senate right now.

[Catharz]

Eh, I think abortion is great. I'd have knocked up my girlfriend and had her get an abortion just for the stem cells, if it wasn't such a pain in the ass. I'll take even a slight increase in the health of my love over the life of a child (which almost nothing has been invested) in any day.

Unlike some people, I don't kid myself. I know that abortion is murder. I know that the use of birth control pills is murder. And the thing is, I'm fine with that. Infanticide is totally natural, and almost every type of animal which cares for its young (plus some which don't) practices it.

Because I'm not Christian, I don't worry about sending all those unbaptized baby souls to limbo because God is too cruel to give them a chance.

[Username17]

I still don't think God physically(spiritually, whateva) layed the smack down on the Egyptian gods though.

Hey, there's substantial evidence that the entire book of Exodus is a fraud. That my people were never slaves in Egypt and that there was no Moses, let alone any plagues visited upon the Egyptians. It's extremely likely that the entire story is just a story told to legitimize the political structure of patriachs three thousand years dead.

But it's a good story and we tell it every passover. And in the story, Jehova played a game of Dominions 3 against Osiris and won.

I should point out that it has been a teaching of the Church since people in the church started writing about things like this that abortion is a sin.

No it hasn't. Seriously, in the old days children weren't even named until a few months after they were born and even infanticide wasn't a crime unless it happened after that period.

The Catholic Baptism is a holdover to those bad old days. You get your christened name at that point, and are a fully recognized member of the church congregation. In the old days, babies weren't even people before that point.

These practices were probably quite appropriate for my goat herding ancestors scraping a living in the desert, and I totally understand why people get selective memory about those practices now adays.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1178816244[/unixtime]]Or people who say that anything that can't be proved should be treated as if it doesn't exist?

Do you believe that other people dream?

.....

Okay since if you think about it you can come up with some evidence for that one, let me modify it:

....

Do you believe what they tell you about the contents of their dreams?

[tzor]

1179026745[/unixtime]]

I should point out that it has been a teaching of the Church since people in the church started writing about things like this that abortion is a sin.

No it hasn't. Seriously, in the old days children weren't even named until a few months after they were born and even infanticide wasn't a crime unless it happened after that period.

It's been almost ten years since I had the original source, but there is a 2nd or 3rd century doument that condemned abortions. Then again at the time they were only talking about chemical abortions; the use of ingesting poisons to kill the unborn child and or induce an abortion.

Oh wait, Catholic Answers is still up. You can find the references Here at Catholic Answers. Here is a quote, which is not only 1st century but for some Christians in the 1st-3rd centuries was in their lists of scripture.

The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child"

As to whether the Jews were at any time in Egypt. There are many shades of grey between the absolute truth and the absolute lie. Imagaine if you will if every Illegal Irish Immigrant in the US got together and left the country. Even with modern times and modern record keeping I'm sure historians would have an impossible time proving it a thousand years from now, much less over two thousand years from now.