*D&D 4ed*

[angelfromanotherpin]

if I remember it correctly, in Neverwinter Nights they changed charm to something like 'you instantly make the target into your friend, however it still retains any other loyalties it might have to it's own companions, rendering the target conflicted and unable to act in combat'.

Would something like that work? It's pretty much just a longer duration stun that way.

I think it works better if the target is reduced to taking actions that defend. Like trying to break up a fight between two of your friends.

Of course, the charmed guy could still try and kick the crap out of people who aren't the charm's caster.

[RandomCasualty2]

Having a Charm ability that isn't game breaking is totally easy. You just have to not have it do what it does in 3e, which is have the monster switch sides on an essentially permanent basis once you've talked to them for an entire minute.

Yeah, pretty much. The problem is that people will still complain that it's not good enough. I mean you could totally make a reverse sanctuary charm spell, but I don't think that people are going to like it. They'll still be complains that it's made of nerf and all that crap.

The problem with this? It explains why monsters can't have those abilities, but it gives no reason players can't have them. Who writes the Monster Manual? WotC. If they don't want monsters using a particular tactic - then don't put in any monsters that use the tactic. Done. There's no reason that the PCs can't have sunders or save-or-screwed or whatever else. In fact, since 4E has such asymmetry between even NPCs and players, there's no conflict there either.

Well the main reason why PCs can't have save or die is because the combat length is longer. They expect you to take like 3-4 hits to take down a standard monster. So the spell that kills a monster in one shot just doesn't fit that paradigm, because in damage terms, it's doing 4x the damage of a normal attack. 4E has really moved away from the 1 hit kills paradigm, so that means save or die are effectively out, unless they have some limitations on them, like requiring multiple hits or only work on bloodied targets or something.

As far as sundering, I'm really not sure. Though I'm guessing it was a time saver for the DM so you don't have to worry about calculating new damage rolls when a monster has to switch from greataxe to shortsword, since that requires some backwards engineering.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

RandomCasualty2, whatever. You can seriously easily have a mechanic for making Save or Die combats longer. They are mental assaults after all.

Using 3.5 as an example:
1 - Set all Will save DCs to 10 + Int mod (ignore level of spell because even the level 1 Charm Person ends it for the monster)
2 - If the monster fails the save, the spell goes off as normal
3 - if the monster makes the save, they take a penalty to their will save equal to the spell level

Or, if you need to plug it into a system that has no Save or Die spells, you can just make a line of Mental Assault Spells, such as:
Hold Person - failed save = held, succeeded save = -2 to Will saves for the encounter.

Also, under these circumstances, the people that are about to get "held and have no fun" know that it is coming and will have opportunity to deal with it. There wouldn't be a "a magic user pops out of the corner and you don't get to act anymore" fights.

In this manner, you can spam mental spells until you think the target is going to fail, and then Wail of the Banshee all of them. You can fairly easily have a combat that lasts 4 rounds in this manner because nearly all Save of Die spells are based on Will saves. Also, as a side effect, this encourages players to use Mind-Affecting spells on creatures that traditionally have weak minds (like a minotaur) because they are more likely to work, and non-Mind-Affecting on creatures that have strong minds (like wizards) because the wizard is guaranteed to make the first save.

[RandomCasualty2]

Also, allies don't have to step through the wall to disbelieve it. Especially if they are in the part of a known illusionist, the tactic has been used prior or explained prior to use, and it has the word "ILLUSION" written in big red letters on the side that faces that party .

Well, to get the will disbelief save, they need to actually interact with it. And that pretty much means they're using an action of some kind to do so. They could use a move action to observe in detail (which would be probably a will save at a +4, because it's an established tactic of the illusionist), or tehy could simply go through and automatically succceed, and then step back through the wall and start attacking.

If you had a free hand, you could also stick your hand through (likely the DM calls that a move action too ). But in any case you're wasting a move to disbelieve.

RandomCasualty2, whatever. You can seriously easily have a mechanic for making Save or Die combats longer. They are mental assaults after all.

Using 3.5 as an example:
1 - Set all Will save DCs to 10 + Int mod (ignore level of spell because even the level 1 Charm Person ends it for the monster)
2 - If the monster fails the save, the spell goes off as normal
3 - if the monster makes the save, they take a penalty to their will save equal to the spell level

Well, you're still left with a few problems.

-The save or die guy in this case is playing his own game. His allies can't contribute to what he's doing, unless they also happen to be wizards.
-It still has the high degree of chaos that comes with save or ides. That is, you can always roll a 1 or 2 on your save and die in one shot.

I prefer something like the target has to be reduced to a certain number of hp, or something similar. That way you can use it on mooks or minions from the start, but the other party members have to soften up the creature before you can save or die it.

That works pretty well for stuff like flesh to stone, or finger of death. It's basically a way you can dispense weak shit or as a finishing move on strong stuff, but your'e just not going to kill a major character right off the bat, regardless of how lucky you are.

[Voss]

So... like the Power Word spells?

[RandomCasualty2]

So... like the Power Word spells?

Yeah, pretty muich, only they basically require an attack roll.

So like you could have something like

Flesh to stone:
Attack: Int vs Fortitutde
Hit: If target has 50 or fewer hp, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target is slowed (save ends). IF target fails his first save, he becomes immobilized (save ends). If he fails his second save, he turns to stone.

Something like that. Where you basically get an instant kill attack. Obviously though the hit point values would have to be tweaked.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

If it were based on a more common tactic, it would be fine. For instance, in our campaign, we have a Conduit of the Lower Planes that took the Venom sphere and a person that is using the Combat School combat feat. They use these together nicely in that the Conduit will make a Poison spell (lose 1d10 Con), that the second will attack (make a Fort save or be dazed).

If you had people making other attacks, it could work well. The Bard makes his Demoralizing Strike (-2 Will saves, normal attack otherwise), the Leader makes his Curse spell (all enemies lose -1 to all saves), the wizard makes his Power Word Blind spell (the specifically targetted creature gets screwed, other creature go blind or take further save penalties).

I like the idea of hp-triggering though. It has to be based on a %. Perhaps something like if the target has more that 20x(your level) in hp?

[RandomCasualty2]

If it were based on a more common tactic, it would be fine. For instance, in our campaign, we have a Conduit of the Lower Planes that took the Venom sphere and a person that is using the Combat School combat feat. They use these together nicely in that the Conduit will make a Poison spell (lose 1d10 Con), that the second will attack (make a Fort save or be dazed).

If you had people making other attacks, it could work well. The Bard makes his Demoralizing Strike (-2 Will saves, normal attack otherwise), the Leader makes his Curse spell (all enemies lose -1 to all saves), the wizard makes his Power Word Blind spell (the specifically targetted creature gets screwed, other creature go blind or take further save penalties).

Yeah I mean it can be a group effort if the entire team wants to play the wizard's game. but still I think there are better ways to do it, because that sort of thing limits everyone else in terms of tactics.

I like the idea of hp-triggering though. It has to be based on a %. Perhaps something like if the target has more that 20x(your level) in hp?

Well 20xlevel is pretty huge. I'd probably be more like 5 x level for 4E, since you want it to work on stuff that you've beat on a bit, or a total mook. So at like 6th level you can blast a 1st level kobold and take him down in one shot. I'd like to maybe try to use the bloodied value actually, since that's somtehing intrinsic to the system, and something people can see, so you aren't dicking your players around with "Oh...I'm sorry, you're 2 hit points short of him being within death range. HA!"

Perhaps, just make it require two attack rolls or something? I dunno. It's pretty hard to say at this point, since i'd like something relatively simple as well as balanced, that seems to go with the rest of the system.

[Fwib]

So... like the Power Word spells?

Yeah, pretty muich, only they basically require an attack roll.

So like you could have something like

Flesh to stone:
Attack: Int vs Fortitutde
Hit: If target has 50 or fewer hp, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target is slowed (save ends). IF target fails his first save, he becomes immobilized (save ends). If he fails his second save, he turns to stone.

Something like that. Where you basically get an instant kill attack. Obviously though the hit point values would have to be tweaked.

You probably want to explicitly use the [petrified] condition for being turned to stone, 'cos that's what it does - otherwise all good.

[RandomCasualty2]

You probably want to explicitly use the [petrified] condition for being turned to stone, 'cos that's what it does - otherwise all good.

Yead definitely. I was just too lazy to look up the actual condition in 4E when I wrote up the power. PDFs take forever to skim for crap.

[Username17]

At that rate why not just have abilities have a level appropriate chance to bloody a target and a level appropriate chance to drop a bloodied target? The whole pile of hit points is completely unnecessary, especially in the 4e style where there are hundreds and hundreds of them in piles.

Boss monsters could have additionally bloodied levels of pain, and minions could drop when bloodied. Problem solved, neh?

The underlying math of 4e isn't super good, but more importantly the entire accounting segment doesn't really add anything to the game. Not with the tiny bonuses, and not with the thing where you chip away at giant hit point piles.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

At that rate why not just have abilities have a level appropriate chance to bloody a target and a level appropriate chance to drop a bloodied target? The whole pile of hit points is completely unnecessary, especially in the 4e style where there are hundreds and hundreds of them in piles.

Boss monsters could have additionally bloodied levels of pain, and minions could drop when bloodied. Problem solved, neh?

Well the main problem with this is that you don't really have anywhere to go as far as new abilities. The nice thing about a damage system is that you have varying degrees of damage, and thus have more granularity to balance things. In the system you propose, things would deal either 1 damage or 2 damage (bloody or kill). Which really doesn't leave you a heck of a lot of room to maneuver mechanics wise, because you can't have damage over time anymore and status conditions like stunning become pointless for the most part (why stun it when I can just kill it?)

While I agree that the piles and piles of hp are not a good thing, I don't think a 2 health level system is necessarily better. Maybe some kind of system like shadowrun could work, with about 10 boxes of health. And maybe you add your level to damage and your level also acts as DR. That gives a reasonable amount of granularity, since you can take health off in 10% increments.

And two hits to kill is still a very fast and deadly combat system. I personally think it's a bit better when the hits are around 3-4. Especially when you want to hand out interesting attacks, like area attacks, whirlwind attacks and cleaves and such. If it was all single target hits, then a 1-2 damage system could work for normal monster, but it gets totally crazy when you start factoring in area attacks. Then you need somewhat small segments of damage.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Someone on the WotC boards examined the 4e Wizard. It doesn't look so good: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042917

[PhoneLobster]

Hmmm. I see Vaalingrad Ashland is still an anus made out of smaller anuses with its head (made out of anuses) shoved up all its other anuses.

Did I mention how much of an anus he is?

[Maxus]

Someone on the WotC boards examined the 4e Wizard. It doesn't look so good: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042917

Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points, and the cleric, by his figuring, does more damage.

I wonder if anyone's told him that no one is doing the damage needed to keep up with monster hit point growth, and that the math in 4e suggests that high-level combat is designed to last forever as you chip away at huge piles of hit points. Your powers just influence how big a chip you can take away at a time.

Anyway, I'd have more faith if he went through an analysis of the wizard powers and sized up their utility.

[Jerry]

I wonder if anyone's told him that no one is doing the damage needed to keep up with monster hit point growth, and that the math in 4e suggests that high-level combat is designed to last forever as you chip away at huge piles of hit points. Your powers just influence how big a chip you can take away at a time.

What about high-level combat against mooks and minions? Or is anything at high level supposed to have bucket-loads of hit points that take a long time to kill?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points.

No, he's also saying that damage, even AOE damage, is ineffective 'control'; and that Clerics have almost as many 'control' effects as Wizards anyway.

[Maxus]

Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points.

No, he's also saying that damage, even AOE damage, is ineffective 'control'; and that Clerics have almost as many 'control' effects as Wizards anyway.

Now that I can see the point of.

[Username17]

Interestingly, I kind of don't agree. The secret to the Wizard after careful analysis of the problem is that everything they do except Ray of Frost and Cloud of Daggers is completely fake. By and large they don't even use their dailies and encounter powers because they are shit.

Cloud of Daggers does 1d6 + Int + Wis to a 3x3 area. In the long run, that's about the biggest attack in this whole damn game. It's better than that even, because the Wisdom Mod of damage doesn't need to roll to hit (meaning that it auto-kills all Minions, it's not a pile of damage for missing, it's a pile of damage for starting their turn in the area, which they get no choice about). Yeah, it's a pathetic pile of damage based on what kinds of hit points enemies have, but a d6 + two stat mods to two enemies beats the holy hell out of a d10 + one stat mod to one opponent all day long. Remember that at 1st level your Int Mod + your Wis Mod is going to be +7, and both will rise together over time.

And Ray of Frost is a Ranged 10 attack which drops enemy speed to 2 for one round. As long as the rest of your party is made out of other ranged characters (Laser Clerics, Rangers, Warlocks, or Wizards), you can do your whole attacking thing without ever closing to melee at all. That's a total win. Against any melee oriented enemy it's time consuming and boring as fuck, but it's a win. Ray of Frost does bullshit tiny amounts of damage, but if your opponent can't fight back I don't even care.

The Wizard thing is really weird and hard to wrap your mind around. But frankly I'm not convinced that any other class has anything to bring to the table that would make me willing to give up a Wizard. Even Ranger Damage is going to be hard pressed to keep up with Cloud of Daggers, and it's hard to imagine a more thorough fucking of a Hydra than that which is available with Ray of Frost spam.

The basic claim that Wizard Encounter and Daily powers are thoroughly underwhelming, that Magic Missile is so shitty that it isn't even worth casting, that's all true. But Wizards have what are likely the two best At-Will powers in the whole game. Not good, but as effective as anything in D&D 4e is allowed to be.

-Username17

[Jacob_Orlove]

Frank: don't forget that if you cast Ray of Frost all the time, you can take a couple of "I'm an Ice Wizard" feats to give your enemies Cold Vulnerability (+5 damage with Ray of Frost) and Combat Advantage against anyone Vulnerable to Cold. Two feats for +2 to hit and +5 to damage is unreal fantastic in this system.

Also, Sleep is really really good in this system, because if people fail two saves, they actually lose. Even if they're only unconscious for a round, everyone can spend an action point and get two auto-crits. And with that stupid Orb thing, you can give your Wisdom mod as a save penalty (also basically unprecedented in 4e), so every time you cast Sleep, someone goes down hard.

But yeah, while Sleep and Ray of Frost are amazing for no reason, you get nothing that's actually better than those for the next 29 levels. It's bizarre.

[Fwib]

Cloud of Daggers does 1d6 + Int + Wis to a 3x3 area.

How do you make it hit a 3x3 area? I hunted around, but couldn't find how it was done

[RandomCasualty2]

And Ray of Frost is a Ranged 10 attack which drops enemy speed to 2 for one round. As long as the rest of your party is made out of other ranged characters (Laser Clerics, Rangers, Warlocks, or Wizards), you can do your whole attacking thing without ever closing to melee at all. That's a total win. Against any melee oriented enemy it's time consuming and boring as fuck, but it's a win. Ray of Frost does bullshit tiny amounts of damage, but if your opponent can't fight back I don't even care.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like they even looked at a kiting party much as a strategy.

Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.

The minion killing cloud of daggers is crazy awesome though. I really think they screwed up the timing on a lot of abilities; cloud of daggers auto-damage should be "if the creature enters the cloud or ends its turn in the cloud" Then it kind of lets you shove minions around without being completely dominant over them.

[shau]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like they even looked at a kiting party much as a strategy.

Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.

I don't know about that. You should not have to back up since everyone and their mother gets around 15 "push back you foe x number of squares" type powers. Against multiple melee brutes casting ray of frost could mean keeping one of them out of range for a turn. Which is still kinda bad, but seems good for the standards of this game.

Still, to make this really work you need to be fighting a melee baddy and also to have a party that does long range.

[baduin]

It's not that bad. Apparently, two-weapon fighting Ranger with Blade Cascade can one-shot anything:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811

And Control Wizards with orb, especially Cleric multiclass, seem to be quite adequate at immobilizing, creating walls etc:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1039126

There is also Seal of Binding - a slowly working no save and die power for a cleric:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=11

On the other hand, math in Skill Challenges is completely broken:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=229919

Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.

[RandomCasualty2]

I don't know about that. You should not have to back up since everyone and their mother gets around 15 "push back you foe x number of squares" type powers. Against multiple melee brutes casting ray of frost could mean keeping one of them out of range for a turn. Which is still kinda bad, but seems good for the standards of this game.

Still, to make this really work you need to be fighting a melee baddy and also to have a party that does long range.

In a dungeon, long range is pretty easy to beat, you just wait around a corner with a readied action. And then there's pretty much nothing they can do except come after you.