*D&D 4ed*

[K]

Some people, quite simply, aren't going to be your friends no matter how good a diplomat you are. Winston Churchill was a hell of an orator, but he was never going to convince Hitler to play nice, because Hitler flat-out wasn't going to do it (and the reverse is true as well).

More than that, I despise a chart that allows ruthless players to take something as mercurial as peoples' dispositions and say to the GM "I got a 57. That means he has to be helpful now."

Aside from that, though, I agree with most of what you said.

In the early part of the war, Hitler actually convinced several nations to hand over the reins of power in their nation with almost no force used (see Denmark, and of course Germany where his coup was entirely popular rather than military).

Hitler had a lot of ranks in Diplomacy.

(And for the record, he was an evil cock that was possibly insane enough to be immune to diplomacy.)

[Talisman]

True, and I realized my mistake in using Hitler as soon as I hit "submit."

I still maintain that any system that allows you to reliably take people from homicidal to helpful in 6 seconds, with nothing but thy silver tongue, is breakable and a mistake.

[Username17]

Yeah, I actually live in Czech Republic, a country which was taken by the Nazis entirely diplomatically. Hitler told Chamberlain that he would have the Sudetenland even if it meant fighting for it, and the rest of Europe told the Czechoslovaks that they could go fuck themselves because apparently the Nazis were going to have that land.

So the Czechoslovakian army laid down its weapons and allowed the troops to march in. Not because they couldn't fight and hold out for much longer than Poland ever did, but because Hitler had convinced all of the Czechoslovak allies to betray them.

-Username17

[Voss]

Well, to be fair, most of Europe considered the Balkans disposable anyway. The entire history of the Ottoman Empire was largely involved the western powers being indifferent to their conquests with the exception of Constantinople, and then when they were 'suddenly' in the Austrian hinterland.

'Allies' isn't really the right term. Except on paper. In realspeak, 'disposable resources' comes closer.

[Koumei]

Wait - aren't you, as a BDSM-practicing lesbian, supposed to love enormous hand fetishes?

I'm beginning to think that, as is the nature of message boards, only a few of my personality traits have been displayed, and as such inflated to colossal levels. If this were a TV series, it'd be a case of Flanderism.

Anyway, Bigby is a man.

Unless we're talking about the descendant of Bigby I once played - she was waiting to become powerful enough to invent her own hand spell, as was customary for all Bigbys. Her friends at the super-elite arcane training school for girls were Tenser, Evard, Melf and Mordenkainen.

Leomund, alas, suffered an injury to his genitals and had to have them replaced with a rottweiler, a rusted white van, a deep-sea diving watch and a subscription to "Guns and ammo monthly"*. So he never had children.

*These are commonly used as a substitute for men without genitals.

[Talisman]

Leomund, alas, suffered an injury to his genitals and had to have them replaced with a rottweiler, a rusted white van, a deep-sea diving watch and a subscription to "Guns and ammo monthly"*. So he never had children.

*These are commonly used as a substitute for men without genitals.

What, no comically oversized sword? Or, given that he was (presumably) a caster, how about a big ol' staff?

"Hey baby, check out my rod of lordly might!"
"Get away you perv...oh, I'm sorry. You meant the magic item. Umm...very nice."

[JonSetanta]

... Flanderism?

"Howdy doo neighbor!" is one of the things I never expect Koumei to say, really.

And that is one of the best interpretations of the DMPC Faerun Mage Squad I have ever seen.
Throw on some sailor outfits and you have yourself a stew goin'.

But if I were a semidivine spellcaster in a fantasy setting unfortunate enough to lose the crown jewels and scepter, I would replace it with a Rod of Wonder.
Every sexual encounter would be... unique.

[Psychic Robot]

Why? I mean seriously. WHy do we even bother making a roll for a hero that wants to craft a sword? If he says he wants to be a blacksmith and he's got a forge and everything, then just let him make the damn sword and get on wtih the story. When you get into caring about how many days it takes him to make it and how much he spent on materials, honestly I think you're just getting too anal. That shit doesn't make for a better game, it just wastes everyone's time.

Because honestly, the majority of your group won't care how long it takes to make a mundane sword that they can buy at 1st level. It's an element of someone's backstory or shit they do during downtime.

The only possible use for crafting as a skill is to play "break the gold piece economy by opening a weapon's shop." And really, I don't give a fuck about that either. This is Dungeons and Dragons, not SimBusiness.

You can open a shop and all that cool shit, but that's part of your backstory, you don't get any extra money from it or anything. It's just part of the shit of what your character does.

And that stuff really doesn't need rules. I dont' want to charge anybody skill points for being able to play the guitar or some other trivial skill that has no bearing on the rest of the game.

Because...

a) ...I like crafting things.
b) ...I like having a system that explains how NPCs create what they need and how much time it takes.
c) ...I like having a system that works within the game mechanics to create an economy.
d) ...I like having actual things to do during party downtime while the party wizard spends two weeks crafting items. (Realistic things. I can't just say, "I practice my swordsmanship.")

You're thinking of the Far Realms, not Hell. Being in hell for a few seconds just isnt' that bad... Sure it's kind of hot, and maybe you meet an interesting bone devil named Fred, but there's really nothing there that's going to drive you insane.

Now, the Far Realms on the other hand just might. But as far as insanity goes, it should depend on the level of the guy you're throwing it at. Sometimes you're just hardcore enough to take that stuff without flipping out.

Well, I like the Lovecraftian flair, so I think hell and the Far Realms should be the same thing, but that's just me.

[Voss]

... Flanderism?

"Howdy doo neighbor!" is one of the things I never expect Koumei to say, really.

And that is one of the best interpretations of the DMPC Faerun Mage Squad I have ever seen.
Throw on some sailor outfits and you have yourself a stew goin'.

But if I were a semidivine spellcaster in a fantasy setting unfortunate enough to lose the crown jewels and scepter, I would replace it with a Rod of Wonder.
Every sexual encounter would be... unique.

Wow. Ok. Too many conceptual transitions lead to increasingly bizarre thoughts. I went from magic to sailor outfits to sailor senshi with lost scepters and dojinshi pages with Rods of Wonder. And then I realized that almost everytime I had a character with a rod (wand) of wander, a rhino came out. That was a disturbing mental image, mainly because a uterus isn't meant to contain a fully grown rhino.

Thanks. Now I don't want to sleep ever again. I fear my dreams.

[Koumei]

... Flanderism?

It's a term used on TVTropes. It's what happens when a character slowly just becomes one big personality trait.
Examples:
Flanders was originally just a good-natured, friendly Christian. Then they... well, just look at him.

Homer didn't use to be as much of an idiot and a jerk.

Corporal O'Riley (M*A*S*H) started out being one of the guys, to a degree - he drank, joined them in games of cards and all that. Then they decided to make him childish.

Think of it as the reverse of character development.

[JonSetanta]

Voss: I could multiquote each response to Koumei's post, but it's a waste of my time.
Please understand that the Rod of Wonder would be dildo-shaped and fused to the mage's pubic area.
Wild Mage PrC would be preferred, as you gain the ability to direct the results of random items to a certain extent.
Welcome to the darkside of the internet. Hope you sleep well. :twisted:

Koumei: It's probably a matter of perception, as you're not as much of a cartoon character online as you might assume yourself to be. You're actually quite varied and unpredictable although some members here seem to have snagged on the issue of lesbianism a bit much.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Speaking of BDSM Lesbians, I notice Koumei has no avatar at present. May I recommend:

[Cielingcat]

Who's that?

[JonSetanta]

The necromancer from Erfworld.

[shau]

A character from erfworld who is a BDSM lesbian.

Edit: too slow

[Cielingcat]

I'm still confused as to why we always discuss Koumei's sexual activities.

[RandomCasualty2]

The problem is that now you blow skill points on Diplomacy because no matter how high your points, the DM sets the DC to have the chance of success he likes.

I think that has to be there, otherwise the game just turns into a diplomacy fest. I really don't want a single table that has a universal DC for every NPC. That's just bad for the game, and 3.5 showed us why. Honestly, it's good that DCs scale by level and the DM has freedom to change around the DC.

Besides, doesn't the DM normally change around DCs for everything when you get to high level? I don't see why diplomacy should have a static DC, yet attack rolls shouldn't. I mean fuck man, diplomacy isn't even level dependent in 3.5

The problem is that for a whole new edition, there should be some improvement.

There was some improvement. The divergence in the skill system was removed.

The problem is that whole system could be replaced by a single page chart that that told you the DC for an action and what ability to add.

I'm not sure if I see this as a problem. If the system is simple, that's actually a good thing.

The problem is I seriously don't want to make skill checks to climb a rope. Ever. This skill system seriously is "let's take the things other skill systems assume you can do and lets add in a chance of failure."

Yeah, you should be able to climb a rope rather easily. But it's good to have a DC on there solely for situations where you've got negative modifiers. Like in 3.5, anybody can climb a knotted rope, unless you happen to be wearing full plate, then you may fall.

3e is not much better mechanically, but at least it's both less complicated and more fun.

I fail to see how it's less complicated.

More fun is subjective. Skills in 3.5 are more powerful for the guy with the skill, as is always the case in 3E, offense > defense, by a huge margin. So the thief with hide/move silent gets to autohide against everyone and people who don't have spot/listen as a class skill are pretty much boned. Now maybe some people think that's fun, but that's pretty damn annoying if you ask me.

Abusing diplomacy may have seemed like fun, but it would get your DM to want to tear his hair out if he played the skill as written. Not to mention the other players won't be too happy when you totally steal the spotlight with a diplomancer.

[angelfromanotherpin]

That's Wanda Firebaugh. She's a kickass character from the webcomic Erfworld. She's fairly complex, but one of her many hats is BDSM lesbian. Later on she seduces her male boss, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Here's a few more of her:

[Fwib]

Because...

a) ...I like crafting things.
b) ...I like having a system that explains how NPCs create what they need and how much time it takes.
c) ...I like having a system that works within the game mechanics to create an economy.
d) ...I like having actual things to do during party downtime while the party wizard spends two weeks crafting items. (Realistic things. I can't just say, "I practice my swordsmanship.")

A) no rules at all for mundane crafting is unfortunate, but if you really need crafting rules you can just steal appropriate ones from some other system. (not an excuse for not having some rules for it at all, but at least it is fixable)
B) is just the same as A)
C) I think I shall leave it to greater minds to create a fantasy economy from whole cloth.
D) Ritualists in 4e take 1 hour to make any magic item they have the resources and level for, so no waiting around - on the other hand, the only way for your wizards to strive for a year and a day to create his item of power is pure DM fiat...

[Bigode]

I'm beginning to think that, as is the nature of message boards, only a few of my personality traits have been displayed, and as such inflated to colossal levels. If this were a TV series, it'd be a case of Flanderism.

I wasn't entirely serious, and don't think the inflated dimension's the real one.

Koumei: It's probably a matter of perception, as you're not as much of a cartoon character online as you might assume yourself to be. You're actually quite varied and unpredictable although some members here seem to have snagged on the issue of lesbianism a bit much.

I haven't snagged on anything, just got a joke about something she doesn't mind talking (it seems, at least).

I'm still confused as to why we always discuss Koumei's sexual activities.

Because she made an effing lot of sexual jokes, and a decent part of them was good (just like the puns).

[Koumei]

I'm too lazy to add an avatar. If I one day do, it will likely be something completely random.

Or a mudkip. I heard that people like those...

More fun is subjective.

I don't know. "3E is more fun than 4E" sounds like a pretty objective statement to me, 4E is that boring. It has transcended mere opinion and become a scientific fact.

Skills in 3.5 are more powerful for the guy with the skill, as is always the case in 3E, offense > defense, by a huge margin.

Look, we get it, you don't think "denying actions" is defensive and you want a game where no-one proactively does anything, instead sitting around negating each other's abilities.

So the thief with hide/move silent gets to autohide against everyone and people who don't have spot/listen as a class skill are pretty much boned.

Because heaven forbid a PC actually be good at something. Luckily, 4E saves the day by making them shit at everything!

Now maybe some people think that's fun, but that's pretty damn annoying if you ask me.

I think you're in the minority here.

[Psychic Robot]

A) no rules at all for mundane crafting is unfortunate, but if you really need crafting rules you can just steal appropriate ones from some other system. (not an excuse for not having some rules for it at all, but at least it is fixable)

Agreed; I shouldn't have to import rules.

B) is just the same as A)

Fair enough.

C) I think I shall leave it to greater minds to create a fantasy economy from whole cloth.

That's true, but the Craft/Profession system helps work within it.

D) Ritualists in 4e take 1 hour to make any magic item they have the resources and level for

Barf.

[Talisman]

I agree with Psychic Robot re: crafting rules. I may never use them, but I appreciate their existing in case I do need them.

Suppose the fighter wants to forge his own nifty Asskickery Sword. You can just handwave it, but a rules system gives you a point of reference other than "that sounds about right, I guess."

Crafting can also be used in grittier, survival-type scenarios, especially at lower levels. Making a raft to sail downriver...crafting traps to hold back the horde of undead...repairing your sundered sword, because The Monsters Are Coming and all these damn fool dirt farmers have are pitchforks and clubs...etc.

And I don't want to hear about fabricate or major creation.

[JonSetanta]

And I don't want to hear about fabricate or major creation.

Actually, it occurred to me today whilst drinking cheap beer that craft "skills" could instead be set, single abilities emulating those spells, since magic does it better.

Why bother with skill ranks and checks to craft, other than quality?
The function of crafting could be a chain of abilities similar to Mending, Fabrication, Wood Shape, Warp Wood, and so on.
The requirements would be "You must be X level" and of course apply the appropriate ability modifiers to a level + something + circumstance bonuses, and you have your crafting right there.

Spellcasters would not be the best crafters by default with this mechanic because just about any PC or NPC could grab the abilities and accomplish the same.
Rather than use arcane motions and words, they have their shop, or assistants, or awesome tools, or maybe just a fuckton of great resources and experience.
Regardless, the outcome of it would not depend on character level directly (skill ranks) as much as how many feats were put into crafting and the setting-and-time-based modifiers for the individual (also known as the Bullshit DM Bonus that makes low-level NPCs better crafters than L20 Fighters or L7 Wizards, or else the game goes weird)

[Voss]

Crafting strikes me as the sort of thing where there are only about 3 levels.

1- You can't do it.

2- You can do it fairly well. Yeah, if given X amount of time, you can hammer the iron and produce Y # of swords. Go you. Write 'weaponsmith' down on your character sheet somewhere, and if it actually comes up, you can totally make yourself a perfectly normal sword and save yourself a handful of coins.

3- Your reputation as a blacksmith spans continents. Kings send envoys with a chest of precious jewels just so you'll think about forging a weapon for their personal champion. Maybe you can put the magical sword of Rethgar the Terrible back together again. So, with a given amount of downtime, you come back to the game with Z amount of gold pieces. This is probably worth a feat.

And... yeah. Thats pretty much it. Can't do it/average joe at it is a piece of background info on your character trait. Awesome at it could be worth a feat. All told, we're looking at a paragraph in the character background section, and a paragraph in the feat section. Not a... let's see... full page (4% in the 3.5 book) of the skill section.