D&D, multiple attacks, and an alternative

[Foxwarrior]

Oh wait, the other thing, multiple attacks. The best part of multiple attacks is stealing someone's sword, stabbing them with it, and then throwing it at another enemy. But that's never happened in D&D, and only rarely happens in Gempunks which is designed to favor that sort of strategy a lot more.

[JonSetanta]

Emerald:
Correct, it's 1d6 per BAB, then the weapon.

I'll make it Reflex save instead of Fortitude or AC rolls.

Sweep Strike was a vague thought I slapped in because of the older rule for taking out weaker does, but I might just remove the Metastrike entirely.

Good point about doubling the dice reduction. I forgot I was giving out twice as many per attack, compared to the Wizard spell progression being 1:2 or every odd level.

Foxwarrior:

Whirlwind Attack.

Ultimately I'll remove it in favor of splitting dice.

[JonSetanta]

Oh wait, the other thing, multiple attacks. The best part of multiple attacks is stealing someone's sword, stabbing them with it, and then throwing it at another enemy. But that's never happened in D&D, and only rarely happens in Gempunks which is designed to favor that sort of strategy a lot more.

Paragons can opt each turn not to make a single Strike as by the class abilities, and instead attack as a Fighter of the same level.

[JonSetanta]

PARAGON (v2)

Bonus Fighter and Normal feats as normal on L1 and even levels, on odd levels add a [Strike] feat that either subtracts from Death Dice to alter the area/reach/frequency of use/other property of an attack, or a rider effect based on a level-appropriate spell as if the Paragon were a Wizard/Cleric/Druid.

d10 HP
Full BAB
4 SP
Fort + Ref
Class Skills open to any selection (because really, I don't care)

A single "Strike" replaces the default attack routine for a Paragon, dealing up to the maximum amount of weapon and Death Dice in damage, a hit which is resolved either an attack roll vs. AC of the target for single target Strikes or instead a Strike DC of 10 + 1/2 BAB + STR or DEX vs. the target(s) Reflex save for multiple. A successful save against the Strike DC results in negating any status effects of the Strike and only half total damage.
Note that some Metastrike feats might add to the number of Strikes in a round, at the expense of Death Dice.

Death Dice
The damage output pool is the result of adding a held weapon or weapons (or unarmed strike) and ability bonus (STR or DEX) to the Paragon Base Attack Bonus d6s. These d6s are the "Death Dice" that may be spread between multiple targets each round or reduced to gain the effects of optional Metastrike abilities.
At the beginning of an attack action, a Paragon may spread their Death Dice for that round (choose which targets get a number of dice) between any number of foes within reach and range. Subtract a number of Death Dice for that turn according to Metastrike feat reductions.
If a single foe, roll attack as normal, or use Strike DC vs. Reflex save as by the Paragon's choice.
For more than one foe, use Strike DC vs. Refelex save for each.
If a Strike affects an area (as by certain Metastrike feats), spreading Death Dice is not necessary; all beings and unattended objects within the area take the maximum amount rolled, yet make Refex saves individually.
Every foe that was hit or failed the save takes the allotted Death Dice damage and any other status effects applied that round.
If the attack roll "missed" or the AC roll at least matched the Strike DC, the target takes half allotted Strike damage and no status effects.

Paragons regain all Death Dice at the beginning of each of their turns.

Attacks of Opportunity may be made as normal, one per provoking enemy within melee reach, using the Strike DC vs. target's Reflex save.
If the save fails, they take Strike damage as normal (adding any leftover Death Dice as the Paragon desires), halt all movement for the round and can not willingly make move actions until the beginning of their next turn.

Two-Weapon FIghting (as by the feat, allowed without taking it) adds the second weapon's base damage and stat bonus to total Strike damage.
Add double the two-handed weapon stat bonus to total Strike damage rather than 1.5x.


Metastrike Feats:
Maximize Strike -6 dice: change Death Dice rolls to maximum values
Quicken Strike -8 dice: Strike as a Free action 1/round
Widen Strike -2 die: apply to area Strikes (such as Sculpt), doubles areas
Reach Strike -2 die: double distance of melee reach or range
Sculpt Strike -2 die: new AoEs for melee attack or ranged attack point of impact (or just becomes a Line)
Empower Strike -4 dice: 50% more Death Dice damage, which roughly averages to +3 per die if desired for simplicity
Twin Strike -6 dice: two Strikes as a Standard action
Invisible Strike -1 die: normally a Strike has flashy glowy effects when empowered by elements or certain riders, but with this, a character swings their weapon, and shit happens mysteriously
Energy Admixture Strike -8 dice: add as much of one energy type in d6s as you normally would deal with Death Dice after total Metastrike reductions
Ghost Strike -2 die: affects Ethereal and Incorporeal targets normally
Explosive Strike -4 dice: pushes at least 10 feet away or more (to limit of AoE), deals +1d6 damage if targets hit anything per 10 feet and knocks prone
Centered Strike -2 dice: 30-foot radius area centers on you but doesn't affect you
Concussive Strike -4 dice: damage type becomes Sonic, and applies "Shaken" status for as many rounds as 1/2 BAB
Delayed Strike -2 die: for up to a minute, damage and effects are only applied as you desire as a later standard action
Elemental Strike -1 dice: change physical strike to a single energy type, or do half and half (energy and physical)
Selective Strike -2 die: up to 1/2 BAB allies are unaffected by your AoE Strike
Benthic Strike -1 die: half or more of the the Strike's damage is magical bludgeoning water element
Thundering Strike -2 die: anyone damaged by the Strike must make a Fort save (as normal) or be deafened for 1/2 BAB rounds
Peaceful Strike -2 dice: non-lethal damage, if the total damage dealt is greater than half the target's current HP they are affect by the Sleep spell in addition to taking the nonlethal damage
Lunge Strike -5 dice: as part of the Strike you may move along with the affected melee reach or thrown range without provoking AoOs up to your maximum move speed for the turn
Teleport Strike -9 dice: after a Strike resolves, you may Teleport to any space within range of the Strike's affected range or area; if a weapon was fired or thrown, you Teleport to that item and hold it
Impaling Strike -5 dice: a single target hit with a piercing weapon is nauseated for 1d6 rounds, or until you remove it (causing 1d6 additional damage to a living foe at the end of their turns until they make a DC 15 Fortitude save or Medicine check)
Burial Strike -5 die: a single target hit with a bludgeoning weapon is Paralyzed for 1 minute (Fort save allowed each turn to end) and moved 5 feet into the ground per 1/2 BAB with a giant 20-foot radius crater of difficult terrain around the hole, might begin to suffocate if buried too long
Vorpal Strike -9 dice: all targets hit by this slashing Strike while at half HP or less are decapitated if reduced to 0 HP by this Strike

Ultimately, instead of using any Death Dice or special riders or anything fancy, a Paragon can just make a simple melee or ranged attack for (weapon dice) + stat, 1 per 5 BAB.

[Foxwarrior]

You got rid of Sweep Strike, but decided to include Centered Strike... what does this mean?!?
Have you mathed out the different ways a Paragon can fight? How does it compare to the combat abilities of existing tome-scale damage dealers, like, uh... Fire Mage, Icewright, flask Rogue, maybe some kind of Koumei Warmage?

[deaddmwalking]

So Empower Strike (+3 damage per die, 4 dice) is better than Maximize Strike (effectively +2.5 damage, 6 dice).

At 9th level, your average Strike Damage is 31.5 (9*3.5). Maximize Strike Damage is 18; Empower Damage is 32.5. If you actually use 150% of damage (instead of +3) it isn't quite as striking. 3.5 x 1.5 is 5.25 (1.75 extra damage instead of 3). At 12d6 your average strike damage is 42; at 8d6 (x1.5) your average damage is 42.

Maximize doesn't really make sense until you're at 15th level; 15d6 has an average of 52.5 damage while 9d6 (all 6) deals 54 damage. Since SOMETIMES you roll better than average damage, I think most players would opt for gambling on more dice. ESPECIALLY since what really matters is how many hits it takes to drop an opponent. If the opponent has 56 hit points, you ALWAYS want to roll damage - most of the time you'll need to hit them twice, but with Maximize you ALWAYS need to hit them twice.

Why would anyone ever use Vorpal Strike? If your hit would reduce them to 0 hit points with a reduction of 31.5 average damage, your hit would also reduce them to zero hit points if you didn't take a penalty to your damage. Once you drop them, you can just decapitate them because they're helpless.

Twin Strike also has a calculable break-even point. With 12 dice, you get an average of 42 points of damage. With 6 dice you get an average of 21. With two attacks that deal ~21 damage, you exactly match. From 13 dice on, you should always use Twin Strike, especially if you might miss.

If centered strike allows you to affect everyone in 30 feet at the cost of 2 dice, any time you have 2 or more people in the area, it's absolutely the right thing to do. With 4 dice, your average is 14; with 2 dice it is 7. Doing 7 damage to two targets is probably as good; definitely same total damage. As the damage increases it just becomes crazy good. I mean, if you're still playing that hit point damage means anything.

I'm not sure that I understand what they're all doing - like Lunge Strike - but I don't think the costs are balanced to the expected benefits.

[JonSetanta]

Some rebalancing might be needed.
I was just going off what Metamagic feats can do with spells of the same level.

Edit: I could remove the die reduction with Metastrike abilities, and keep damage output the same.
Could replace it with, I dunno, just out of whim, HP damage to the user.

[deaddmwalking]

Some rebalancing might be needed.

Balancing is needed.

It can't be done in a vacuum. Comparing to spell damage isn't really the best way to approach it. Not every spell does hit point damage. In fact, the spells that are acknowledged to be the best don't do hit point damage. Some spells automatically target multiple people (like fireball) so you don't have to metamagic it to spread to other people.

I think what you want to do is establish benchmarks. What's the expected damage output of a flask rogue of equal level. Should this class do more, or less?

Then think about the resource management. If this is a full BAB class, it gets an extra attack at 6th, 11th, and 16th level. You could use those to power the strikes - losing your iterative attacks to make a bigger effect on your primary attack is probably a good deal - those attacks might not hit level-appropriate foes and having to stand still in order to make a full-attack sucks donkey balls. Spending other actions (like swift/immediate) can be another option; that limits how many times you can activate an ability without having to subtract damage dice.

[JonSetanta]

You got rid of Sweep Strike, but decided to include Centered Strike... what does this mean?!?
Have you mathed out the different ways a Paragon can fight? How does it compare to the combat abilities of existing tome-scale damage dealers, like, uh... Fire Mage, Icewright, flask Rogue, maybe some kind of Koumei Warmage?

I'm reading about DPR of Flask Rogues right now.

If I made Centered Strike a BAB restricted ability, like Whirlwind Attack, would that be better?

[deaddmwalking]

This feels relevant.

[JonSetanta]

I don't get it. Maybe it's Teh Autisms on my part, but I don't see the connection.

So, I'm going to do this:

Get rid of Twin Strike.
Get rid of Centered Strike.
Clarify Lunge Strike better.
Figure out some way to apply rider effects and shapes to Strikes without reducing dice.

EDIT: Oh, and the suggestion about spending Swift actions (woo action economy!) to apply Metastrikes would work, but I'd either have to stack them up like 1-5 effects for a single Swift action, or limit it to one per round.

[JonSetanta]

All I can find on Flask Rogue is this article:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions ... age-attack

"Thus at character level 9, while using the ring of blinking, Prof. Littleman takes the full-attack action to make 4 ranged touch attacks that each inflict 6d6 points of fire or acid damage. At character level 15, he takes the full-attack action to make 7 ranged touch attacks that each inflict 8d6 points of fire or acid damage. This is as good as Prof. Littleman's going to get until character level 20 when his number of attacks increases to 8."

While wonky and multiclassed rather than straight out pure Rogue, at level 9 that's roughly a 75% chance (touch attacks) or so of doing a full 24d6 flask + Sneak Attack.
Bare minimum.



OK I dug around more and found this:

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index ... c=5348.120

"Halfling (using the Racial Substitution from Races of the Wild) Rogue with two flaws
First three feats are Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, and TWF... I hope Precise Shot comes in soon or the chance to hit is pathetically low, and I'd assume Rapid Shot is in there too.
Uses a Ring of Blinking (27kgp, not likely to be affordable until level 10 or so) to generate sneak attacks, and is thus unable to sneak attack much past the first round for the first 9 levels. After he gets it, 20% miss chance makes me wonder why we're working so hard to get touch attacks. And yes, for Judging Eagle... Blink specifically says all your attacks have a 20% miss chance. That's it, that's just what it says. Deal.

So, at level 6 we're probably looking at a guy with a Handy Haversack (2kgp), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4kgp), plus some basic armor and other items, a backup weapon, and a heck of a lot of wealth by level blow in potions, as well as a Wand of Gravestrike. Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, plus two flaws. He's got three attacks at +2 to hit plus dex bonus (probably +5 dex bonus, so total of +7 to hit), and they do a whopping 5d6 damage (average 17.5) with acid flasks if you can sneak attack, 1d6 if you can't. Plus, with much of his money shot, I'm really wondering how he even uses that Wand of Gravestrike, considering it's a DC 20 to use and he only has +9 from ranks, as well as MAD from needing Dex, Int, and Con while still needing a decent Str score on a Halfling. I'd assume a masterwork tool, but are we really calling it effective when you fail to do most of your damage nearly half the time because of blown UMD checks? Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something."

[JonSetanta]

I'll try a version where you lose additional attacks to apply Metastrikes.

Metastrike Feats:
Maximize Strike (1 less attack): change Death Dice rolls to maximum values
Quicken Strike (1 less attack): Strike as a Free action 1/round
Widen Strike: apply to area Strikes (such as Sculpt), doubles areas
Reach Strike: double distance of melee reach or range
Sculpt Strike: new AoEs for melee attack or ranged attack point of impact (or just becomes a Line)
Invisible Strike: normally a Strike has flashy glowy effects when empowered by elements or certain riders, but with this, a character swings their weapon, and shit happens mysteriously
Energy Admixture Strike (1 less attack): add as much of one energy type in d6s as you normally would deal with Death Dice after total Metastrike reductions
Ghost Strike (1 less attack): affects Ethereal and Incorporeal targets normally
Explosive Strike (1 less attack): pushes at least 10 feet away or more (to limit of AoE), deals +1d6 damage if targets hit anything per 10 feet and knocks prone
Concussive Strike: damage type becomes Sonic, and applies "Shaken" status for as many rounds as 1/2 BAB
Delayed Strike: for up to a minute, damage and effects are only applied as you desire as a later standard action
Elemental Strike: change physical strike to a single energy type, or do half and half (energy and physical)
Selective Strike: up to 1/2 BAB allies are unaffected by your AoE Strike
Benthic Strike: half or more of the the Strike's damage is magical bludgeoning water element
Thundering Strike: anyone damaged by the Strike must make a Fort save (as normal) or be deafened for 1/2 BAB rounds
Peaceful Strike: non-lethal damage, if the total damage dealt is greater than half the target's current HP they are affect by the Sleep spell in addition to taking the nonlethal damage
Lunge Strike (1 less attack): as part of the Strike you may move along with the affected melee reach or thrown range without provoking AoOs up to your maximum Run speed for the turn (4x Move speed); this movement is in any direction, but only straight lines. Regardless whether a weapon is a melee or thrown attack, your hand or hands do not leave the weapon, and you follow its path.
Teleport Strike (2 less attacks): after a Strike resolves, you may Teleport to any space within range of the Strike's affected range or area; if a weapon was fired or thrown, you Teleport to that item and hold it
Impaling Strike (1 less attack): a single target hit with a piercing weapon is nauseated for 1d6 rounds, or until you remove it (causing 1d6 additional damage to a living foe at the end of their turns until they make a DC 15 Fortitude save or Medicine check)
Burial Strike (1 less attack): a single target hit with a bludgeoning weapon is Paralyzed for 1 minute (Fort save allowed each turn to end) and moved 5 feet into the ground per 1/2 BAB with a giant 20-foot radius crater of difficult terrain around the hole, might begin to suffocate if buried too long
Vorpal Strike (2 less attacks): all targets hit by this slashing Strike are decapitated if they fail an additional Fortitude save

[deaddmwalking]

In Alice and Wonderland, the titular character has a conversation with the Cheshire Cat:

“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?”
“That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,” said the Cat.
“I don’t much care where—” said Alice.
“Then it doesn’t matter which way you go,” said the Cat.
“—so long as I get somewhere,” Alice added as an explanation.
“Oh, you’re sure to do that,” said the Cat, “if you only walk long enough.” —

So the first thing you have to do is decide where you're going. You're very focused on DPS, but there's more to a class than that.

Classes are all balanced against each other. It doesn't actually matter how powerful 12th level is or 3rd level in abstract, but it definitely matters how powerful a certain character is relative to his companions at the same level. There's going to be people who have a problem with flight being an option at 3rd level but feeling like it's fine at 8th level, but GENERALLY, as long as things are 'fair' between classes the absolute power doesn't matter too much.

So at 11th level when I get to drop two attacks to make my strikes Vorpal (maybe with an Area of Effect) and my opponents might get decapitated, that sounds like it's pretty good - maybe TOO good. But martial characters tend to suck, so maybe not, even if it's better than what a barbarian or a ranger could do.

What I'd suggest outlining is where this character fits relative to other character archetypes at 5th/10th/15th/20th. Is he a 'fighter' that can actually pull his weight in combat (but not anything besides combat)?

[JonSetanta]

Yes, just a simple warrior with added powers, wasn't going for noncombat versatility like the Tome Fighter, something more like Tome Barbarian.

Objectives:
Reduce number of rolls per round.
Add attack options like movement, debuffs, and AoE to attacks.
Keep it simple.

[deaddmwalking]

Brute
Each time a brute gains a level, he chooses a [brute] feat.
Each time a brute gains an iterative attack, he gains a +5 bonus to his Brutal Strikes

Brutal Strike
A brute may make a brutal strike as a standard action. He may accept a penalty on his attack roll up to his BAB. For every -1 penalty he takes, he gains +1d6 damage. Alternatively, he may apply a [brute] feat in place of extra damage.

Brute Feats
Elemental Strike [1d6] - Choose one type of Elemental Damage. Damage dealt by a brutal strike is treated as damage of the chosen type. This feat may be taken multiple times; each time you must choose a different Element. A strike can be treated as multiple elements, but the damage penalty is applied for each.

Ghost Strike [1d6] - Your strike is treated as a magic weapon and affects Ethereal and Incorporeal targets normally.

Touch Strike [3d6] - Resolve your attack as a touch attack.

ETC.

So at 11th level, you'd have 2 extra iterative attacks (+11 BAB). When making a Strike attack you'd gain a +10 bonus (because you are giving up your iterative attacks). Instead of making your attack at +21, you can make your attack at +10 and deal +11d6 damage.

Simple.

[JonSetanta]

I wasn't planning on making the attack bonus go up and down, but it works.

[Foxwarrior]

Touch Strike [3d6] - Resolve your attack as a touch attack.

Is there a reason you made a class who could only effectively damage enemies with a low touch AC?

[angelfromanotherpin]

This reminds me of the 'simple weeaboo fightan' class I cobbled together a while ago, mostly plagiarized from inspired by the Tome Soldier.

If You're Curious

The Reaver
HD: d10, BAB: +1, Saves: Good, Skillz: 6

Level:	Feature:
1	Brutal Strike
2	No Stride
3	Wicked Strike
4	Bold Stride
5	Whirlwind Strike
6	Long Stride
7	Wraith Strike
8	High Stride
9	Dimensional Strike

Proficiencies: A Reaver is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, with Light, Medium, and Heavy armors, and with Shields and Kite Shields.
Brutal Strike: As a Standard action, a Reaver can make a melee attack that deals +1d6 damage. The bonus damage increases to +2d6 at level 3, +3d6 at level 4, +4d6 at level 6, +5d6 at level 7, +7d6 at level 8, and +9d6 at level 9.
No Stride: As a Move action, a Reaver can gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC until the start of their next turn.
Wicked Strike: As a Standard action, a Reaver can make an attack; if the target takes damage from this attack, they must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod) or be Blinded. If the Reaver is at least level 5 and the attack is melee, they can have the failed save inflict death instead.
Bold Stride: As a Move action, a Reaver can move up to their Speed, and this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the Reaver is at least level 8, this action also bestows a Freedom of Movement effect before they move, and lasting until the start of their next turn.
Whirlwind Strike: As a Standard action, the Reaver can make a melee attack that is applied against each opponent that they threaten.
Long Stride: As a Move action, the Reaver gains a +30 enhancement bonus to each of their Speeds until the start of their next turn, and can move up to their (increased) Speed. If the Reaver is at least level 9, the bonus is +60 instead.
Wraith Strike: As a Standard action, the Reaver can make a melee attack that is resolved as a melee touch attack.
High Stride: As a Move action, the Reaver can move their Speed as if its type were Fly (Perfect); if they are unsupported at the end of this movement, they are prevented from falling until the end of their next turn.
Dimensional Strike: As a Standard action, the Reaver can make an attack; the Reaver can see the invisible for the duration of this attack, and the attack ignores incorporeality and can strike ethereal creatures. If this attack damages the target, they are moved to the Reaver's plane of existence and are not incorporeal for the next 2d4 rounds.

[JonSetanta]

Interesting. Convergent evolution.


I'm thinking of using Kaelik and Frank's automatic weapon enhancement bonus by level to fuel the Metastrike.
That way the attack bonus won't break the RNG.


Enhanced Weapons: All physical attacks made by the Paragon are magical, with an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 BAB rounded up.
This bonus increases attack rolls and damage rolls up to +5, but may be reduced each round to apply Metastrike feats worth up to +10.

[JonSetanta]

So, the idea for using pseudo-magic-weapon bonuses is that BAB remains the same, enhancements can be spent to temporarily grant Metastrikes, Death Dice (which will probably be changed back to a static value like 5x BAB because rolling 10d6 multiple times per round for AoOs is OBSCENE) will not be reduced for Metastrikes.

Optionally, if a player wants to just use the enhancements with multiple attacks, they can do that too.

[Kaelik]

Nothing sums up the design process of this thread more then "wow I just discovered rolling 10d6 damage takes a lot of time, so what of we replaced 10d6 with 50 damage."

If you stack the bad ideas on top of each other and ignore all the good advice people give hard enough people stop listening to you and then you don't have to hear criticism anymore.

[JonSetanta]

Not ignorance, but a journey.

I'd do the same for spells and Sneak Attack but that's not the point.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I also had the idea to remove rolling for damage from my game. Man, I'm a fuckin' genius.

[Kaelik]

Not ignorance, but a journey.

I'd do the same for spells and Sneak Attack but that's not the point.

Here was some good advice given to you by Fox and Deaddm respectively:

You got rid of Sweep Strike, but decided to include Centered Strike... what does this mean?!?
Have you mathed out the different ways a Paragon can fight? How does it compare to the combat abilities of existing tome-scale damage dealers, like, uh... Fire Mage, Icewright, flask Rogue, maybe some kind of Koumei Warmage?

Some rebalancing might be needed.

Balancing is needed.

It can't be done in a vacuum. Comparing to spell damage isn't really the best way to approach it. Not every spell does hit point damage. In fact, the spells that are acknowledged to be the best don't do hit point damage. Some spells automatically target multiple people (like fireball) so you don't have to metamagic it to spread to other people.

I think what you want to do is establish benchmarks. What's the expected damage output of a flask rogue of equal level. Should this class do more, or less?

Now, a couple days later you are moving from 1d6 per level (average damage 35 at level 10) to 5 damage per level (50 damage) because....... you can't do math? You like the number 5?

You still haven't established benchmarks, you still haven't compared it to other classes, you just swing wildly around from number and idea to number and idea never even remembering, much less continuing to apply, the criticisms that were made of your previous wild swings.