15th Level "+" ... Does it pay to build around PAO?

[User3]

Say you are starting a new game/campaign at 15th level or higher. The martial components of your party (say, a Tank, Rogue, and Archer) are all making their respective builds.

In your opinion, does it make sense to structure those martial builds around the assumption that the party Wizard can provide those characters with consistent castings and re-castings (even using Imbue With Spell Ability & Karma Bead cheese to augment spellcasting level) of the Polymorph Any Object spell?

This way, the Tank, Rogue, and Archer can all amp their Int/Wis/Cha stats while being assured that their physical stats are cranked through the roof via consistent and spellcasting-level-boosted (to counter Dispel Magic strategies by the DM) PAO conversions into creatures such as Kelvezus, Firbolges, War Trolls (MM3 book), etc.

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This way, the pre-generated stats of these high level martial characters do not have to waste their level-up stat boosts to traditional stats like Str/Dex/Con.

Wizards can do a whole plethora of tricks to crank their spellcasting level from 1 to 10 (or so) levels higher than their actual level, beyond the obvious Spell Power boosting via PrC's like Arch Mage and Spellguard of Silverymoon.

The beauty of all this is that the martial characters can now have crazy-high Wis, Int, & Cha stats, while dumping their physical stats. Meaning they can have great skill ranks, a nice Will save, and pretty faces.

This, of course, assumes DM complicity in such a collaborative party structuring strategy.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Does it make sense from a min-max POV? Yes.

Does it make sense from a campaign POV? Errm. It just means the DM has to either amp up the EL so that things are challenging for PC's with a bunch of inherent bonuses and special tricks, or give out treasure and XP like Santa Claus on steroids.

So really, stuff like this on a party-wide scale only gives the party phantom levels that the DM can take away whenever she feels like it. If the DM wants to play uber-D&D, the DM doesn't have AM fields and dispel magic out there. If the DM wants to play more sedate D&D, the DM punches out anti-magic spells like a pusher selling crack.

OT, this is why min-maxing shouldn't matter in a good campaign. As long as the DM keeps things fair for all players - by maybe helping the less able min-maxers - it all evens out.

[User3]

Hanged Man,
What this does, is help balance the martial types at high levels, with the superior power mechanics of the druids, clerics, and wizards. Yeah, it's a horrible "fix", but one that allows the priamry spellcasters to not dominate the game from their inherent mechanical superiority. Yes, the primary spellcasters still have to play "maintenance and protection" of the PAO spell integrity, but it also allows the martial types to have significantly higher mental stats for skills, saves, and benefits of Cha-based game mechanics.

I know that this gambit is pointing out the high level flaws in comparative party composition, but its just an idea for easily compensating for said weaknesses using 3.5 D&D right out of the box (along with its various sourcebooks). In addition, the flavor aspect of having your rogue be a Kelvezu and your barbarian be a Firbolg is pretty cool. And it gives them enough of a power boost that the primary spellcasters actually have competition in a given encounters "dominant player".

[Username17]

You can also use a Ring of Spell Storing + Alter Self to turn yourself into something less freakish looking without screwing over your ginormostats.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

1094840380[/unixtime]]Hanged Man,
What this does, is help balance the martial types at high levels, with the superior power mechanics of the druids, clerics, and wizards. Yeah, it's a horrible "fix", but one that allows the priamry spellcasters to not dominate the game from their inherent mechanical superiority.

* * *

And it gives them enough of a power boost that the primary spellcasters actually have competition in a given encounters "dominant player".

Good idea. But the spellcasters still dominate the game, only by buffing the fighters and doing their own crap. If the melee characters are cool with it, fine - but my players would just be annoyed their characters weren't better on their own merits.

If that's what you want, why not just give martial classes a bonus? If you want them to have a boost, and you want that boost to come from higher stats, you could just give fighters +14 str, +8 dec, +14 con, +6 natural armor, reach, and let them use oversized weapons. Is that fundamentally different than assuming PAO is always on?

[User3]

As long as everyone is abusing PAO and you have a good set of monster books, it would be a silly but balanced game.

But don't forget that you are going to be hedged out of Magic Circle and Protection from [X] spells as a Kelvezu or other Outsider, and any dismissing-type magic cast by enemies will give you one-way trips to Heaven or Hell(since a "natural" ability of an outsider is to be from plane they are natives as per their stat line).



Also, the most "normal" thing an Alter Self is going to turn you into is a Tiefling.

I think that Firbolg can turn into Ogres, which is not very normal at all.

Considering the small amounts of Int you get out of a PAO and work involved, and the pay-off, its not really worth it to rearrange all your stats to min-max your base stats around the fact that you are Polymorphed.

[Username17]

But don't forget that you are going to be hedged out of Magic Circle and Protection from [X] spells as a Kelvezu or other Outsider,

Not in 3.5 it doesn't. In 3.5, McCircles only hedge out summoned creatures, extraplanar creatures who are not summoned are only hedged out of 3rd edition and earlier versions of McCircle.

And Alter Self can always turn you into "yourself", which is as normal looking as your original character. Of course, it can also turn you into a Bachinid, which looks just like a person anyway.

Considering the small amounts of Int you get out of a PAO and work involved, and the pay-off, its not really worth it to rearrange all your stats to min-max your base stats around the fact that you are Polymorphed.

That's not even close to true. Try turning into things out of the D&D Joke Book and then Alter Selfing yourself some frickin hands. Works like a charm.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

I don't really find spellcaster domination to be as much of a problem as you guys do apparently, because I really don't think fighters need those kind of bonuses to compete.

And while I see that spellcaster's can dominate through pure abuse tactics, like planar binding loops or gate cheese, it won't matter how powerful a fighter is. Casters will always dominate until you break out the nerf stick. I mean astral projection alone... they can't die or lose their items ever. What can a fighter ever have to counter being immune to death?

I don't see this as a balancing tool at all, it may work from a min/max point of view, but it's not really solving anything, nor does it make any degree of sense from a logical or roleplaying perspective.

[Wrenfield]

1094860828[/unixtime]]I don't really find spellcaster domination to be as much of a problem as you guys do apparently, because I really don't think fighters need those kind of bonuses to compete.

I'd really like to see an example of how your fighter-types are either equalling or trumping the spellcaster-types at the mid and high level range. Because in smartly constructed parties played by rules and tactics savvy players ... you never ever see the martial types perform at the same consistent high level.

The disparity in both versatility and firepower of the martial and spellcasting types is *HUGE*.

I don't see this as a balancing tool at all, it may work from a min/max point of view, but it's not really solving anything, nor does it make any degree of sense from a logical or roleplaying perspective.

It sures seem to help balance it a bit. Again, going by the original author's intention of using "out of the box" D&D. Regarding your logic/rp "degree of sense", I think you just need to think a bit more creatively, RC. Come on, anybody with a sense of vision and adaptive thinking can make this game into anything they want.

[RandomCasualty]

1095020613[/unixtime]]I'd really like to see an example of how your fighter-types are either equalling or trumping the spellcaster-types at the mid and high level range. Because in smartly constructed parties played by rules and tactics savvy players ... you never ever see the martial types perform at the same consistent high level.

The disparity in both versatility and firepower of the martial and spellcasting types is *HUGE*.

Well, first I don't have anyone playing a druid. A druid would dominate if played properly I agree.

For clerics, I don't allow persistent spell, and I've nerfed divine favor and righteous might. Not as bad as the new WotC nerfs, but about halfway there. I've also nerfed greater magic weapon, magic vestment and all the truly abuseable spells (gate, Shapechange, astral projection, Planar binding, etc.). So wizards aren't really using any uber cheese. I allow holy word as written and one cleric has a prayer bead of karma, which is pretty powerful, but limited because not all the party is of good alignment.

They don't particularly use polymorph much or well, so that may be the difference, though I don't know. It's also true that a lot of the party fighters are well built and probably better so than the casters, so that also likely contributes.

It sures seem to help balance it a bit. Again, going by the original author's intention of using "out of the box" D&D. Regarding your logic/rp "degree of sense", I think you just need to think a bit more creatively, RC. Come on, anybody with a sense of vision and adaptive thinking can make this game into anything they want.

Well, the thing that I run into is that it seems to me that it doesn't help at all. I mean your main fighter contender is the cleric. OK, so now he has PaO too, assuming your fighters do. Your fighters would normally have more strength than him, and more con and everything. But that's no longer true. NOw your starting stats are equal to that of the cleric. Only the cleric has Divine favor, divine power and righteous might. SO advantage cleric. I don't see how building fighters around it is really going to help much. If anything eliminating Polymorph effects will help fighters more, because then clerics and druids have to worry more about strength and con.

As for the logic thing, I find it really unlikely that characters would survive up to 15th level based on the assumption they'll be polymorphed. From a storytelling point of view it's overall pretty stupid. Sure if a guy actually wanted to suffer through those early levels then I'd let him, but if he's just creating a high level character from scratch, I'd say "no way".