4th Edition Quirks

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:39 pm

Time to beat a dead horse: They used MMOs as a model.

Harlune · Post by **Harlune** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:43 pm

Just be glad they left out some of the really stupid mmo item pricing conventions, like packs of black/dark blue/dark red/purple dye that costs more than an entire suit of platemail.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:55 pm

rapa-nui wrote:Time to beat a dead horse: They used MMOs as a model.

Another thing is that 4e characters apparently have less to do than my Warlock does in World of Warcraft, if what Frank said about a 30th level character only have 17 distinct things to do is true.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:18 pm

rapa-nui wrote:Time to beat a dead horse: They used MMOs as a model.

Arrgh, I don't play D&D for the same reason that I play WoW!

At a 4th edition table:

GM: Alright, guys, at 1st level, you are going to repeatedly slay rabbits for several real-time hours so you can hit level twenty-something to get that Griffon, who will fly you to the Temple of Doom, where the real action starts.

Players: Can't we just start with the Griffon?

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:11 pm

I'm pretty sure the intent of the leveling process in MMOs is that of a giant tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and interact with people. Sadly, it lasts a bit too long in the one I play.

Guild Wars had the nice option of skipping that and going straight to level 20, and WoW is sort of adding that with the ability to create a level 55 Death Knight as long as you have a level 55 character.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:17 pm

Cielingcat wrote:I'm pretty sure the intent of the leveling process in MMOs is that of a giant tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and interact with people. Sadly, it lasts a bit too long in the one I play.

Guild Wars had the nice option of skipping that and going straight to level 20, and WoW is sort of adding that with the ability to create a level 55 Death Knight as long as you have a level 55 character.

The other thing about Guild Wars was that if you didn't skip right to 20, you at least didn't have to grind for months to get there. It'd take about a good 2 days or so if you do it right.

I always imagined GW as more skill-based than WoW, rather than gear- and level-based.

Also, I think that several of the mechanics of GW would be better suited to a tabletop anyway, such as the Assassin's attack chain combos or Paragon chants (think bard).

And you can actually multiclass effectively, while still making your primary class matter.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:33 pm

Personally I can get a character to 70 in a week if I work on it, but I agree that it takes far too long. A good chunk of it is of course the useless time sink of running from place to place, which they're making easier by giving mounts 10 levels earlier.

I haven't played Guild Wars enough to comment on how skill based it would be.

The 13 Wise Buttlords · Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:58 am

Any rules or bullshit logic that lets an Eternal Seeker replace their class abilities/paragon abilities with that of any paragon class they want?

Suddenly things get a lot more fun when you're allowed to take that one paragon ability that gives you action points whenever your friends spend one.

Tydanosaurus · Post by **Tydanosaurus** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:53 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:As far as I can tell, these guys are thinking hopefully that taking Initiate of the Faith allows them to meet the Warpriest prerequisite of being a Cleric. Indeed, it seemingly does, since they helpfully filled in this line:

PHB, p. 208 wrote:A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.

From the sound of things, that's the way it's meant to play. The next errata is going to fix Ranger multiclassing. Currently, the Ranger multiclass feat doesn't qualify you for the paragon paths, and the intent is to fix that.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:05 am

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:Any rules or bullshit logic that lets an Eternal Seeker replace their class abilities/paragon abilities with that of any paragon class they want?

Suddenly things get a lot more fun when you're allowed to take that one paragon ability that gives you action points whenever your friends spend one.

Unfortunately, however, it doesn't allow you to spend action points more than once per encounter, so its only actually useful every other encounter, IF one of your buddies spends an action point. I'd rather just have the +4 to all attacks bullshit, because thats at least noticeable.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:04 pm

So here's an amusing one that actually came up on ENworld:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=232946

Basic gist- the clerics command makes a creature move. However, thats just flavor text, as all the power is doing is forcing a slide of 3+ (or prone, which along with the daze portion of the ability makes this an effective stun lock on melee creatures).

So for a brief moment, an immobilized (or grabbed) creature hit with command is freed from that effect to walk 3+ squares and then immobilization reasserts itself. No telling what happens to the creature grabbing it if it moves away- either its still holding on from 3+ squares away or it gets a free move as well.

Sigh.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:50 pm

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:I just also noticed how retarded item pricing is in 4E.

I mean, it was stupid as well in 3E but it's just going fucking out of control by now. You can buy three holy avengers for a +5 bonus and still end up with more cheddar than a holy avenger with a +6 bonus.

WTF is up with this math? How did they make it worse in this edition?

The bizzare pricing is bizzare, but also true to some elements of real life. $140 million will get you the most expensive painting in the world, or 140 really really really expensive paintings for $1 million each, and unless you're an epic level art collector you won't be able to tell the difference.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:44 am

MartinHarper wrote:The bizzare pricing is bizzare, but also true to some elements of real life. $140 million will get you the most expensive painting in the world, or 140 really really really expensive paintings for $1 million each, and unless you're an epic level art collector you won't be able to tell the difference.

Eventually, money hits a glass ceiling, and an object's value cannot be measured in pure $. How much would a diamond 3 feet in diameter be? And even if someone could afford it, why would they pay so much for a single diamond?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:21 am

I gave an NPC a maze where the walls were simply diamond plates - one inch thick, and 5' by 5'. I quickly realised it'd be impossible to work out an actual value, and put it at "lots of money". Fortunately, the player didn't attempt to steal the walls and sell them - although it was largely Wish economy anyway, so he couldn't have traded them in for anything super special.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:06 pm

Jerry wrote:And even if someone could afford it, why would they pay so much for a single diamond?

Why would people pay for it?
High-level thieves and house-raiding adventurers in D&D are as common as city pidgeons.
Stealing diamond plates could become like playing Mario, competing to see who got more coins.

It wouldn't be the value of the item as much as the joy in obtaining them.

Although, I have similar experiences to Koumei's when DMing with friends. They somehow always manage to make like Italian art thieves, dashing in to a castle or dungeon without care for plot, goal, or challenge as much as the singleminded pursuit of "Let's gank this loot and bail out."

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:31 pm

Stealth quirk: low level PCs are easier to hear when they are quiet

DC for a monster to hear a PC through a door: 25
DC for a monster to hear a quiet PC through a door: PC Stealth check +5.

(for now, I'm assuming 25 is a typo for 15)

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:01 pm

Halfling quirk:

Halfling (or other small) wizards can't use staves.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234003

Complete with a quote from the official ruling.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:54 pm

*facepalm*

Harlune · Post by **Harlune** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:03 pm

Bloody hell... did the designers have a hate on for staves or something?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:22 am

That just makes me laugh.

I think they actually had their hate-on for small people.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:52 am

Well, since the "official ruling" comes from customer service, it probably says nothing whatsoever about the designers' feelings toward small characters.

josephbt · Post by **josephbt** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:08 am

pg 159, DMG

At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on.
When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.

High level characters can't survive suffocation, drowning, starvation or thirst. 1st level characters can survive gazzilion of rounds(days, weeks) of damage.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:22 pm

josephbt wrote:High level characters can't survive suffocation, drowning, starvation or thirst. 1st level characters can survive gazzilion of rounds(days, weeks) of damage.

Actually, all you need to live without food indefinitely is a level 2 cleric with the Cure Light Wounds daily utility power.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:59 pm

The opening page for the ritual chapter shows the scene of a dragonborn using a scroll to ressurect the fighter, with drow charging towards the party in the background. It seems interesting that they're showing a scene that pretty much cannot happen, because a Raise Dead takes 4 hours to cast.

Also, Tenser's Floating Disk explicitly states you can control its movement (some DMs use the 'follow' clause with an iron fist), which means you can ride in style and get an effectively free hover power (goodbye pressure plates).

Not really a quirk, so much as a facet I bet dungeon makers never consider. If entering an area that used to be home to a mighty wizard (10+ higher level), Arcane Lock makes the door unopenable through Thievery or Strength...yet no resistance to damage, so our 1st level halfling wizard can just punch it down after a few minutes. However, if this same wizard instead spent 100gp and cast Magic Circle on his keep, he'll do better than what an Arcane Lock could ever do.

SphereOfFeetMan · Post by **SphereOfFeetMan** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:50 pm

virgileso wrote:The opening page for the ritual chapter shows the scene of a dragonborn using a scroll to ressurect the fighter, with drow charging towards the party in the background. It seems interesting that they're showing a scene that pretty much cannot happen, because a Raise Dead takes 4 hours to cast.

I think you have it backwards. The point is that rituals take a lot longer to cast compared to 3.x spells. Therefore you will be interrupted much more often. See, being vulnerable to attack while casting a level appropriate ritual, which costs 10% of your wealth, is a feature.