So Pathfinder Beta is out...and I'm still sad.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:03 pm

ckafrica: No. They fixed the bard level 20 ability, at least, which was previously so much fail that I can't possibly understand how it got through the "broken filter."

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:43 pm

Yeah, quite a bit better I'd say, at least if you want to even read completely. I agree that the original tone was more amusing though.

I've been sorta following Pathfinder, but like so many of us I think I'm done caring about it. You hit on a lot of things that are broke with it, but most of it has been pointed out to them already and no one seems to care. Still, if you want to try to steer them right, best of luck. Bulmahn's new *playtest* forums look like they're going chapter by chapter, so I hope that if you dump this early it gets noticed.

Since others have hit on spellcaster points, no need to retread there. As to your suggestions:

Fighters and Monks are ass and will remain so until someone over there figures out that the bigger numbers aren't what they need. The ability to select class abilities from a list of non-awesome stuff (feats) is not a good basis for a class, and the Monk and Fighter will continue being crappy until they get actual decent class abilities. I think you're being way generous on the state of those classes in Pathfinder.

Barbs and Rogues were given all their class specific splat feats and prestige class abilities with the costs removed. Rogues got a much better deal here. And you're right that rage points are seriously clunky.

Sorcerer [...] Undead Bloodline: [...] Either make it real damage reduction or make it immune to nonlethal damage.

Immune to nonlethal is a fair idea, right up to the point where the Sorc casts regenerate and becomes immune to almost everything. So not really a good idea at all. Real damage reduction, or even crappy #/Blunt would be much better.

Feats [...] 7. Great Fortitude (and Lighting Reflexes and Iron Will): Still shit. They suck. Still. Again, not Paizo’s fault so much as the 3e devs’.

Agreed. Still, they went and made the skill feats scale slightly, maybe they'll consider doing the same with these. Or maybe make the feat give you "good" progression on the save that you choose on top of the +2 bonus. Feel free to suggest either of those if you think they're worth it, I don't know if I will bother posting them to Paizo.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:07 pm

I'm not seeing how regenerate makes the sorcerer invincible. Regenerate eliminates all nonlethal damage anyhow.

And yes, unfortunately, the fighter and monk will continue to suck in 3e because of the lack of "good things." Unfortunately, suggesting that will get ignored. The only real solution is to make the feats do interesting things, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:19 pm

Sorry, spell/ability/version confusion on my part. It's been a long morning.

I meant as long as they don't get the Regeneration (Ex) special ability which would allow them to treat most damage as non-lethal, which they would be immune to as long as they didn't lose the (Su) ability that you want to adjust. They'd still get immunity to non-lethal at 20 anyway, but I don't really care at that point.

Edit: So, with the changes they made to the polymorph-like spells, I don't see an easy way to gain that ability before 14th level Sorc (Giant or Plant Form spells give it if the form has it) . So maybe it's not an issue after all. /shrug.

Optimator · Post by **Optimator** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:44 am

Heheh, I liked the original version as well.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:42 pm

I have genuinely never understood why so much ink gets spilled over Level 20 abilities. They will probably show up in one game that you ever play in your whole life and only for the tail end of one adventure and not to any consequence. Heck, someone could get an army of the dead capable of conquering the world and it would not matter.

-Username17

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:45 pm

It appeals to peoples' sense of symmetry and the "hero's journey."

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:23 pm

That's still an illogical appeal.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:38 pm

Talisman wrote:It appeals to peoples' sense of symmetry and the "hero's journey."

Since most people don't know shit about the 'hero's journey' and its a steaming pile of crap *anyway*, I don't think that flies.

Seriously, the stuff you get at level 12-14 matters so much more, because if you get into the high levels at all, this is where its coming down. You're getting towards the end of prestige classes, and anything you get at this level you can actually leverage out so that it actually matters even if you do manage to get to level 20.

... not that being 'Teh Awesomzorz' at the end is part of the hero's journey anyway.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:51 pm

Talisman wrote:It appeals to peoples' sense of symmetry and the "hero's journey."

Every adventure is a "hero's journey", and while gaining experiences or loot to bring back is a vital part of that, any level gains involved are purely incidental.

And, yeah, the worth of an ability is probably (roughly) inversely proportional to the level it's gained at.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:53 am

Voss wrote:... not that being 'Teh Awesomzorz' at the end is part of the hero's journey anyway.

Not to mention that, if we're talking about Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, all the characters have to have the same biography. Among other things, they must all be orphans who confront a false father figure before gaining their full power and saving the world.

The fact that there's really only room for one "hero's journey" arc for any group of characters makes it lousy as a basis for roleplaying. It's awesome in epic fantasy stories, but sucks in an environment where every character's supposed to be equally important.

In short, yeah, people don't know what they're talking about when they bring up the "hero's journey."

Hey_I_Can_Chan · Post by **Hey_I_Can_Chan** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:34 pm

Um... Spycraft 2.0 gives out what is considered a character's most powerful ability at level 14. Additional abilities beyond that are simply force multipliers.

So, yeah, you actually get to play with Teh Awesome for a while.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:17 am

Lame, i just noticed that Pathfinder Beta (maybe in Alpha as well) took out the bonus attack with Improved Trip. Oh, and they cut all of the Improved Trip/Bull Rush/Grapple feats to only give a +2 bonus to the check.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:16 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I have genuinely never understood why so much ink gets spilled over Level 20 abilities. They will probably show up in one game that you ever play in your whole life and only for the tail end of one adventure and not to any consequence. Heck, someone could get an army of the dead capable of conquering the world and it would not matter.

-Username17

Pretty much.

To me, the ideal capstone has always been some shiny "hey look at me I win" ability that doesn't actually really do anything that significantly alters the way you play the game. It's some shiny bonus that's there to make the player feel good about getting to level 20. All the "meat of the gameplay" stuff has got to come in significantly earlier than that.

Either that, or it's just one more selectable or progression, nothing special.