Designing a Planescape Game

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:26 am

I'm curious as to whether one should/could make a system that suits the Planescape setting better than standard 3E, and what kind of design goals should one have in doing so.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:51 am

I suspect should is the key question here.

A close analysis of what is actually good/bad about the Planescape setting itself would likely lead to a situation where you were essentially writing a mostly new setting before you even got to the supporting rules side of things anyway.

I think the key thing you should keep in mind is "Pandimensional reform".

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:31 am

PhoneLobster wrote: A close analysis of what is actually good/bad about the Planescape setting itself would likely lead to a situation where you were essentially writing a mostly new setting before you even got to the supporting rules side of things anyway.

Yeah. I suspect that any serious attempt would involve discarding pretty much every mechanic of the original setting. The important ideas of Sigil, the Blood War, infinite planes, gates, factions, and belief would probably be all you'd want to retain.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:32 am

The Book of Fiends pretty much has my interpretation of the planehopping adventure setting.

Other than that, important things to remember are that key things in the setting can't really be resolved. The Blood War can't be "won", but you can rise to a position of authority, fight epic battles, and win important victories.

I personally also think the "infinite planes" theory needs to be ditched. I prefer the idea that the planes are in fact planets where someone conquered it and tainted the entire planet's magic with it's personality. Since like draws to like, planets that are magically very similar are tied together with a pile of gates (and hence the many planes of the Abyss).

Planets are plenty big, and you can actually do something of importance even if the planetary population is thousands of balors and millions of other nasty demons.

Also, Planescape wants to ditch the "Demons are all evil" and "angels are all good" and have these types sitting side by side at a bar. Considering that 3.X really loves the badtouched races, you can just have that with the badtouched races while keeping outsiders what they were designed to be (living morality placeholders).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:21 am

K wrote:Considering that 3.X really loves the badtouched races

I forget, are "badtouched races" the Genasi, Ass-mart, Tiefling, Mechanatrix, Chaond, Mephling, Tanarukk, your mum, Fey'ri, Feytouched and the like?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:22 am

The bad-touched races do include aasimar, genasi, chaonds, etc. However, the main ones I always hear about are the tieflings, because having a touch of evil is much more attractive to the common gamer (seemingly) than being touched by an angel.

One thing I see as desireable is the equivalent to the cantina in Mos Eisley viewed through fantasy-colored glasses.

A problem is that the alignment wheel of the setting is both good and bad. Mechanus and Limbo are good planes to have, as is the tone of Blood War where you have law vs chaos with many of their fights in 'unaligned' lower planes. However, many people I see (including me) tend to clump the Upper Planes.

While I can live with the layered Inner-Ethereal-Prime-Astral-Outer design out of tradition, this plays havoc with 3E's spell system, because they're designed for settings where the Ethereal and Astral are both available. Back in 2E, and maybe even in 3E, teleportation and extra-dimensional spaces tapped into the Astral to function.

Then there are the elemental planes, which were understandably tinkered with in 4E because they're largely boring and redundant (a dimension of ooze?!).

For those interested, there was a book made by Monte Cook's company (can't remember how much was written by him) called Beyond Countless Doorways. It's a fascinating read, but there's a certain cohesion that's lacking to help the planewalking setting as a whole.

That's definitely one thing I want with/from my Planescape, a cohesive cosmology. I need to figure out what part of the Great Wheel I can change to get rid of the excess baggage while retaining enough the parts that make it good and recognizable as Planescape.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:12 pm

K wrote: I personally also think the "infinite planes" theory needs to be ditched. I prefer the idea that the planes are in fact planets where someone conquered it and tainted the entire planet's magic with it's personality. Since like draws to like, planets that are magically very similar are tied together with a pile of gates (and hence the many planes of the Abyss).

Planets are plenty big, and you can actually do something of importance even if the planetary population is thousands of balors and millions of other nasty demons.

My meaning was "infinite number of planes" rather than "infinitely large planes", although there is little difference in the case of the Abyss. I always found Carceri to be the most interesting plane, which was literally an infinite number of planets connected together with gates. Planescape definitely works best as a space opera.

On the other hand, Limbo fits in with the 'belief made real' ideology, and really should be an infinite chaos that exists just beyond the edges of the multiverse.

I see the "outsiders" as meta-factions, that is huge planar organizations of individuals with a common belief of how the multiverse should look. The angels want everything to be all celestial. The baatezu want to control all of the wealth and power, and don't give a shit what they do to the environment in the process. The tanar'ri just want to evolve and propagate. The mechanus want a perfectly tuned universe with everything in its )metal) place. The slaad want to tear down all of belief and return everything to limbo.

These are people who can drink side-by-side at a bar, and at most they'll get into a very heated political argument. They can even defect, because while they're 'ascended', born, or created to serve their philosophies, they still have individuality and choice.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:06 pm

I never really understood the ideology part of planescape much. It's just rather odd that you're going to convert people at all, let alone extreme beings like angels or that most people are even going to care about such esoteric theories and the war of ideas. Now I figure you may get some deserters from the path, but then you'd just end up with freelancer ronin instead of actually getting an angel to come over to the side of chaotic evil.

Most of the philosophies are just too overbearing or stupid.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:24 pm

virgileso wrote:The bad-touched races do include aasimar, genasi, chaonds, etc. However, the main ones I always hear about are the tieflings, because having a touch of evil is much more attractive to the common gamer (seemingly) than being touched by an angel.

Heh. One Halloween I went around bars dressed in an angel costume and asking pretty girls if they'd like to be "touched by an angel."

It got me a few free drinks and more than a few interesting conversations.

But yes, those are some of the bad-touched races along with fey-touched, half-illithids, and all the other combos of "someone was way into xenophillia in the past."

One of the things I don't like about Planescape and the planes in general is the planar stereotyping. My personal view of the planes basically has the planes as being more independent. For example, in my view the Abyss is a collection of planets overcome by magic where demon armies won, and there is no one demon race. The tanari are just one demon race among many and because they are natural travelers because of their gate and teleport powers people on other planes tend to know of them far more.

Basically, the Abyssal planes are just planets where the demon apocalypse went out of control so ruined cities and low organization is common and the Hells are the much more rare "controlled demon apocalypse" where someone retained a semblance of civilization when the war went down and now civilization is just made out of demons instead if people.

By the same token, Mechanus is not a plane of ultimate order, but it is more of a planet where mechanical life won the war and altered the magic of the place to be more kind to mechanical life.

Using this viewpoint, people wouldn't be trying to change the universe, but they are trying to spread their version of magic to other Primes where the war between different kinds of magic has not been decided yet.

Things like the Blood War can be simply be explained by the fact that since like draws to like, portals to the Hells connect to the Abyss and of course wars will happen. Also, since the Hell's magic is like the Abyss, both sides know that taking more real estate on one of these planes is much like getting more on your own so there is is an incentive to do so.

Afterlives can be simply be explained by the "corruption of souls" mechanic. This means that unless you are corrupted by a demon and sell your soul, it goes wherever souls go (unknown). Corrupted souls go to the plane of the corrupting demon and very holy souls like clerics go to the plane of their god. Everyone else goes somewhere unknowable on death. The Blood War can even just be a war for the souls of the corrupted that appear on respective planes.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:54 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Most of the philosophies are just too overbearing or stupid.

Boy, you don't keep up much with politics do you?

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:08 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
RandomCasualty2 wrote:Most of the philosophies are just too overbearing or stupid.
Boy, you don't keep up much with politics do you?

Considering that people in real world don't change their political beliefs when confronted with logical arguments, I don't see creatures formed out of materialized belief changing their opinions.

I think that playing Planescape as a political game is a mistake. It just leads to the humanizing of things that work best as inhuman things. I mean, some things need to be unrepentantly one way or the other so that adventurers don't get philosophical or introspective about their role in murder and theft.

That's why demons, the undead, robots, giant bugs, and Nazis are the few things people can kill in movies without there being a moral discussion (though Nazis are starting to lose their status as boogymen).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:06 am

I always thought of Limbo as a very empty place other than a very long line of people and a horizontal stick floating in the air.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:03 am

The main issue I have with Planescape is "why fight about it?" I mean, seriously, why does everyone have to be a dick about pushing their opinion on everyone else? You've got an infinite fucking plane of shit where you can do your own thing and never bother fucking up the rest of the cosmos. Now I can see the self righteous angels and stuff trying to stick their noses in other people's business, but really, the slaad? Why do they fucking care? You're embodiments of chaos and individuality, wouldn't you just care that you can do your own thing in limbo and that people don't bother you?

Most of the ideas are on a massive cosmic scale, and yet you aren't ever going to achieve any of that crap, because you can't change things that big. Overall the factions don't achieve anything except on a very small scale, so seriously, why bother?

Balors and angels are supposed to be able to rub shoulders at the tavern, yet they've got stupid shit like the blood war going on and a bunch of groups with philosophies that pretty much involve destroying everyone with an opposing point of view, making the cosmos completely intolerant. Now, at first glance you think that planescape is about joining a factor and getting involved in a cosmic war, but that's boring as fuck since you don't accomplish anything. So then you realize that Planescape is about the individual. Fuck the blood war, you're out to make your own fortune on the planes.

Of course, why hasn't everyone else figured that out in the setting.

If there weren't any major factors then Planescape might almost make sense. If everyone just had a live and let live attitude instead of being a faction crazy, it could almost work.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:57 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:The main issue I have with Planescape is "why fight about it?" I mean, seriously, why does everyone have to be a dick about pushing their opinion on everyone else?

Dude, people do it in the real world all the time. Do you honestly think being eleven feet tall and having laser eyes is going to fix that?

You've got an infinite fucking plane of shit where you can do your own thing and never bother fucking up the rest of the cosmos.

Yeah, but... what if that other guy has a nicer patch of the infinite cosmos? Sure, you could just search until you find a better spot, or you could totally just stab him in the face and take his.

Or alternatively "I like Sigil. It's a great city. Really handy for getting stuff. Shame I'm crammed in here with millions of other people, and it's more crowded than pre-plague London, and they're all dicks. Say, I have a fiery aura and Implosion as a SLA..."

but really, the slaad? Why do they fucking care? You're embodiments of chaos and individuality, wouldn't you just care that you can do your own thing in limbo and that people don't bother you?

Ah, but consider it from their point of view: Giant frog (and then, RC became enlightened)

Of course, why hasn't everyone else figured that out in the setting.

I like to call it setting-stupidity. It's like this: in Ranma 1/2, everyone is a complete fucking moron. All these tools make their own self-insertion fanfiction, and they invariably solve problems by using their viewer knowledge and just explain stuff. And by doing that, they're doing it wrong. Anyone who goes into Ranma-land instantly becomes as moronic as the rest of the crew and merely makes things worse.

So if you, right now, were made into a D&D character, with all the associated powers and lack of responsibilities, and transported there? Yeah, you'd suddenly forget what the best, smartest option is, and find yourself doing all that shit. Or a quest would drop itself into your lap and you'd get caught up in it.

If everyone just had a live and let live attitude instead of being a faction crazy, it could almost work.

Let me know when that happens in a world without beings created out of Good molecules and that have DNA screaming "Genocide the Evil things!" and beings created out of Evil molecules and that have DNA screaming "Genocide the Good things!" and all the other stuff.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:09 am

I don't see anything wrong with a plane of ooze.

Just like there are places in the real world you really wouldn't want to live, I suspect most planes are the same way.

Fiction does have the swamps of unending flatulence, so why not a plane of unending flatulence?

-Crissa

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:29 am

Koumei wrote: Dude, people do it in the real world all the time. Do you honestly think being eleven feet tall and having laser eyes is going to fix that?

But the real world doesn't have infinite planes. People in the real world fight over resources. Land, wealth, possessions, etc. and that makes perfect sense because those resources are finite.

Yeah, but... what if that other guy has a nicer patch of the infinite cosmos? Sure, you could just search until you find a better spot, or you could totally just stab him in the face and take his.

Only by planescape standards, it's really not "nicer". Planes are conjured from thought so basically all you have to do is imagine your plane being nicer and it will become that way. If your plane is a shithole, then you have only the plane's denizens to blame.

And like even if you manage to take over some land in the name of the nine hells, as soon as it's considered part of your plane, it turns into the same shithole that the rest of your plane is, because it's inescapable. If people think of your plane as a piece of crap, then it becomes a piece of crap. That's what planescape is all about. So instead of conquering things, you're better off just starting a propaganda campaign.

Or alternatively "I like Sigil. It's a great city. Really handy for getting stuff. Shame I'm crammed in here with millions of other people, and it's more crowded than pre-plague London, and they're all dicks. Say, I have a fiery aura and Implosion as a SLA..."

Yeah, Sigil makes some sense, it's just the rest of the planes don't. Sigil is a city that a lot of people are going to want to control because its a central hub trade route. So I can totally buy that. It's just the war for infinity that confounds me.

I like to call it setting-stupidity. It's like this: in Ranma 1/2, everyone is a complete fucking moron. All these tools make their own self-insertion fanfiction, and they invariably solve problems by using their viewer knowledge and just explain stuff. And by doing that, they're doing it wrong. Anyone who goes into Ranma-land instantly becomes as moronic as the rest of the crew and merely makes things worse.

So if you, right now, were made into a D&D character, with all the associated powers and lack of responsibilities, and transported there? Yeah, you'd suddenly forget what the best, smartest option is, and find yourself doing all that shit. Or a quest would drop itself into your lap and you'd get caught up in it.

I guess I just like my settings to make a little more sense than that.

bosssmiley · Post by **bosssmiley** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:29 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Now, at first glance you think that Planescape is about joining a factor and getting involved in a cosmic war, but that's boring as fuck since you don't accomplish anything. So then you realize that Planescape is about the individual. Fuck the blood war, you're out to make your own fortune on the planes.

Of course, why hasn't everyone else figured that out in the setting.

The Fated seem to have done so. But then they're just one more little cult of loonies in Sigil, all of which claim to have the purpose of the universe sussed.

As for the "There are infinite areas out there, so why bother?" I suppose that power over people is, in some respects, more appealing, interesting and useful than power over...well...stuff.

It could be a case of the favour economy > the gold economy, or it could just be a hierarchy of needs thing. When you have all the shineys you could ever want, what's left? Respect, clout, influence, face.

The Baatezu and Yugoloths especially seem to get off on this idea; power for the sake of power.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:30 am

Koumei wrote: Dude, people do it in the real world all the time. Do you honestly think being eleven feet tall and having laser eyes is going to fix that?

But the real world doesn't have infinite planes. People in the real world fight over resources. Land, wealth, possessions, etc. and that makes perfect sense because those resources are finite.

Yeah, but... what if that other guy has a nicer patch of the infinite cosmos? Sure, you could just search until you find a better spot, or you could totally just stab him in the face and take his.

Only by planescape standards, it's really not "nicer". Planes are conjured from thought so basically all you have to do is imagine your plane being nicer and it will become that way. If your plane is a shithole, then you have only the plane's denizens to blame.

And like even if you manage to take over some land in the name of the nine hells, as soon as it's considered part of your plane, it turns into the same shithole that the rest of your plane is, because it's inescapable. If people think of your plane as a piece of crap, then it becomes a piece of crap. That's what planescape is all about. So instead of conquering things, you're better off just starting a propaganda campaign.

Or alternatively "I like Sigil. It's a great city. Really handy for getting stuff. Shame I'm crammed in here with millions of other people, and it's more crowded than pre-plague London, and they're all dicks. Say, I have a fiery aura and Implosion as a SLA..."

Yeah, Sigil makes some sense, it's just the rest of the planes don't. Sigil is a city that a lot of people are going to want to control because its a central hub trade route. So I can totally buy that. It's just the war for infinity that confounds me.

I like to call it setting-stupidity. It's like this: in Ranma 1/2, everyone is a complete fucking moron. All these tools make their own self-insertion fanfiction, and they invariably solve problems by using their viewer knowledge and just explain stuff. And by doing that, they're doing it wrong. Anyone who goes into Ranma-land instantly becomes as moronic as the rest of the crew and merely makes things worse.

So if you, right now, were made into a D&D character, with all the associated powers and lack of responsibilities, and transported there? Yeah, you'd suddenly forget what the best, smartest option is, and find yourself doing all that shit. Or a quest would drop itself into your lap and you'd get caught up in it.

I guess I just like my settings to make a little more sense than that.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:36 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Koumei wrote: Dude, people do it in the real world all the time. Do you honestly think being eleven feet tall and having laser eyes is going to fix that?
But the real world doesn't have infinite planes. People in the real world fight over resources. Land, wealth, possessions, etc. and that makes perfect sense because those resources are finite.

Except there are infinitely many individuals inhabiting an infinite multiverse. The little patch of turf that you call your own in the infinite universe may not seem like enough. There is also the issue of access: much like our own universe, most people don't see any benefit from the fact that it's infinite. They're stuck using gates that they know about and can get to.

If you can find a route to it, you can just fuck off to Limbo and make your own little world (if your belief in it is strong enough). There are a lot of dangers involved in doing that, which is why badass hermits and fanatic cults are usually the only ones to even try.

Yeah, but... what if that other guy has a nicer patch of the infinite cosmos? Sure, you could just search until you find a better spot, or you could totally just stab him in the face and take his.
Only by planescape standards, it's really not "nicer". Planes are conjured from thought so basically all you have to do is imagine your plane being nicer and it will become that way. If your plane is a shithole, then you have only the plane's denizens to blame.

And like even if you manage to take over some land in the name of the nine hells, as soon as it's considered part of your plane, it turns into the same shithole that the rest of your plane is, because it's inescapable. If people think of your plane as a piece of crap, then it becomes a piece of crap. That's what planescape is all about. So instead of conquering things, you're better off just starting a propaganda campaign.

Baatezu want their world to be like Baator. You might consider it a shit hole, but that's probably because you're not baatezu. The reason they want more Baator is avarice. Similarly, the angels like Celestia, and want to make the multiverse into Celestia out of 'generosity'.

baduin · Post by **baduin** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:42 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:..
Except there are infinitely many individuals inhabiting an infinite multiverse. The little patch of turf that you call your own in the infinite universe may not seem like enough.
...
Baatezu want their world to be like Baator. You might consider it a shit hole, but that's probably because you're not baatezu. The reason they want more Baator is avarice. Similarly, the angels like Celestia, and want to make the multiverse into Celestia out of 'generosity'.

Infiinty is difficult to understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality

In an infinite world, any finite arbitrarily large number of slaves doesn't matter. No one will even care to free them - if the total number of slaves is infinite, freeing arbitrarily high finite number changes nothing.

Similarly, adding any finite number of territory to Baator doesn't increase it in the slightest. In fact, it can be trivially proved that although there is inifinite amount of creatures in the multiverse, each can own an infinite terrain on EACH planes - since the cardinality of continuum is higher than the cardinalty of natural numbers.

Taanari are an exception, since they possibly can have higher cardinality. But in that case, the probability that a given Taanari have fought in the Blood War is exactly 0 - for each of the infinite number of Taanari who fought in that war, there is a separate inifnite number of Taanari who are not interested in it.

So, even if you had an infinte army, it would be impossible to make yourself noticed in the Abyss.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:53 pm

baduin wrote:But in that case, the probability that a given Taanari have fought in the Blood War is exactly 0 - for each of the infinite number of Taanari who fought in that war, there is a separate inifnite number of Taanari who are not interested in it.

I don't think you understand how probabilities [don't] work over infinite sets. If there was a finite number of tanar'ri involved in the war, the probability of a randomly selected individual having fought in it would arbitrarily small. With two infinite sets, the probability is incalculable.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:46 am

Planescape's wars, for those involved, is a philosophical one. The term 'philosophers with clubs' is and has been an apt term to use for many of the major players.

Being satisfied with your patch of the cosmos and stagnating means your own actions will mean nothing, because they're not going to influence anyone beyond yourself. Expanding isn't for territory, it's for converting others to your viewpoint; memetic theory given physical form. Having aggressive, conquering philosophies are going to be the word of the day, because the nonviolent/nonconquering ones are either too far in the background for anyone to care about or are conquered by the violent philosophies.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:That's what planescape is all about. So instead of conquering things, you're better off just starting a propaganda campaign.

And that's what the factions are about, conflicting propagandists. The Blood War takes a different route where instead of baatezu converting tanar'ri, they're killing them so they'll be the only evil around and thus correct due to lack of dissenters.

The whole infinity vs infinity debate when speaking of the Blood War is meaningless. It's just a setting backdrop where the only people that try to discuss how it happens are greybeards and forumites. Saying that no amount of gained territory means anything to the Baatezu is right on up there with saying that having lots of children in a culture means nothing because the population of the universe will remain effectively zero.

baduin · Post by **baduin** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:51 pm

The Idea of Planescape is good, the execution is flawed, because it was shoehorned into the preexisting framework of planes which doesn't fit in the least.

The Planescape requires only two things:

1) a psycho-reactive realm outside of the material multiverse. By psycho-reactive I understand the sphere/plane which changes in the reaction to the morality, ideas, wishes, fears, emotions of the dweller etc - in other word, the plane when the pathetic fallacy is true and the reality is really consensual.

2) the fundamental questions must be important, but must remain ultimately unanswered. In D&D it is wise to be good, and stupid to be evil. If you live in Sigil, you can go through a portal and see the torments of the damned, and the pleasures of the heavens. Only an idiot (or, perhaps, a truly fanatic philosopher) would decide to be evil.

As the result of that misfit, we have eg following paradoxes:

1) The planes are peopled mostly by souls of the dead, celestials, infernals, and some great wizards, and some planar races. In Planescape souls play no role at all, high level wizards are rare, celestials and fiends are met with occasionally. Most of the population of the Sigil are quite normal humans - who shouldn't be there at all.

2) The basic idea of Planescape is the war of ideas: each faction wants to impose its image of reality on all others and in that way change reality. Unfortunately, fiends, celestials and deities generally cannot be influened in that way. Deities depend on the faith on their believers - who are on the Prime and generally cut off from the warring philosophers of Sigil.

What is the solution? It is simple: to keep the original elements of Planescape - Sigil, factions, planar races, and to throw out the standard planar system.

A simple planar system designed for Planescape.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/astral/astral.html

There are three fundamental tiers of reality: Material Multiverse, Astral/Ethereal (single tier) and Ideal tier. Astral and Ethereal have meaning a bit different from the standard D&D.

Ideal is the realm of absolute and cannot be directly accessed by PCs. The beings living there are truly immortal, have no bodies at all (and so cannot be fought with), and can never change their opinion. Both Celestials and Fiends have their home in Ideal. Also souls of the dead go there.

The Multiverse is linked by gates. You can also use Plane Shift spell to travel to different realities and to different planets.

Astral/Ethereal is a single tier divided into Near Ethereal and Far Ethereal=Astral. (Near Ethereal ideally shouldn't work as better invisibility. It shouldn't be possible to directly influence or observe Material from Ethereal). Elemental planes are demiplanes in the Astral.

Ethereal/Astral can be accessed both by beings from Material and from Astral; there are also native creatures (planar races). It is psychoreactive - it form itself in response to the thoughts and emotions of beings living there. Near Ethereal is psychically connected with Material. Each planet in Material has a corresponding piece of Ethereal (you can actually use ethereal to travel, like Warp in Warhammer 40K).

Near Ethereal generally looks similar to the corresponding Material, but it is influenced also by mental atmosphere (a bloody tyranny will have rivers and rains of blood, black clouds etc in Ethereal). Also the other way round - the changes in Ethereal influence the emotions in Material. Defeating evil presence in the Near Ethereal can lead to improvements in material - better weather, more responsible people, even a revolution against a tyrant etc.

Far Ethereal/Astral corresponds to the typical planes from planescape. Beings from Ideal can create there demiplanes corresponding to their ideals, where they are represented by avatars. That way Wotan can have his Valhalla and fighting heroes, which is impossible in Ideal. Those demiplanes are not infinite and are based on the power of the given deity/being in the Material and Astral. If a being from Ideal suffer enough losses, its demiplane contracts and finally disappears, leaving only "dead god" as described in Planescape. This doesn't mean the deity itself is destroyed - it remains in the Ideal, but can no longer influence anything else.

Those realms in the Astral influence Near Ethereal which in turns influences Material. Eg Valhalla lies near the Ethereal land corresponding to the lands of the Norse, and can influence it by sending there Valkyries etc.

Fiends create in Astral demonic subwords (see Jack Vance/Michale Shea "Nifft the Lean"). Those are Nine Hells, Layers of the Abyss etc. They can grow and contract, depending on the infernal/abyssal influence in the world. Most of the damned are damned souls from Ideal, who cannot be freed. But there are other prisoners in Astral hells who can be liberated. Living people can be imprisoned in the Astral. Since killing them would send them to the proper afterlife, fiends tend to keep such prisoners alive until they can get them to damn themselves.

Beings from the Ideal have certain difficulties in accessing Astral, and correspondingly greater difficulties in accessing Material. That is why they want to recruit living people in the Astral, which is the common meeting ground.

Sigil exists in the Astral, as the center of trade between different Material worlds and Astral demiplanes. Since it is the best connected place in the Multiverse, ideas which are common there tend to be propagated far and wide. Whoever can win the war of ideas in Sigil, can shape the nearly whole Astral/Ethereal and consequently even Material Multiverse.

What is the main difference from the standard Planescape:

1) All demiplanes are finite and can be conceivably destroyed or at least significantly diminished.
2) Any creature powerful enough can create a demiplane, and you have no proof except its word that it is what it seems. Any epic wizard could create a Valhalla - perhaps a bit smaller one. In fact, according to a persistent rumor, that is how Odin started - he was a powerful wizard who managed to create a personal demiplanes, and it proved to be well designed and very popular with Norse warriors. Belief in him rose exponentially, and now he is the chief god of the Norse pantheon, having overthrown less popular Tyr.
3) You cannot know whether you will end in hell or heaven. Certainly, clerics of good gods say that you will end in Hell if you are evil. On the other hand, if you actually go to the Nine hells in the Astral, and are powerful enough to speak with devils there without being immediately captured, you will be assured that the successful Evil people end in very pleasant places. They can show some very pleasant demiplanes, filled with shapely succubi/erinyes/what you wish. You can believe whom you like.
4) Angels are good, and demons are evil. But not everyone who has an angelic avatar must be good. Some beings are quite good at disguising themselves, and some other are simply very nearly angels - but not quite. Powerful good creatures can look while in Astral quite like angels - if they think so of themselves. Even some quite non-angelic personages can think they are virtually angels - and belief is reality in the Astral.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:27 pm

Most of the population in Sigil is either imported normals - by which they're there, whether you say they should or not - or souls.

'normal' people are souls, which kinda screws up your argument.

-Crissa

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:38 am

baduin wrote:fuckwin Planescape changes

Baduin, I want you to do the following;
1) Formalize your most recent post in to a categorized proposal
2) Put a name on it like "Baduin's Planescape"
3) Win

Does anyone remember, from many many months ago, a thread I began on 'spiritual disease names'?
It actually ties in with a fiction and/or RPG setting I'm developing, originally labeled "Worlds of Twilight" but details are subject to change.
I'll post parts of a discussion about it from /tg/ on a different thread, as it does relate partially to this planes-as-planets concept. I mention this because it ties in nicely with many concepts proposed in this thread; perhaps someone might be inspired by, seeing how I haven't copyrighted any of it feel free to cannibalize the basics for Planescape changes.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=62577