If you could change THREE THINGS about 4E...

[K]

I'd argue that monsters aren't even playing the same game as PCs. They get fewer powers, powers with better mechanics than anything PCs can get, and those powers don't follow any metric that PCs use in terms of strength of powers as related to level.

Well, monsters really aren't playing the same game as PCs. Most monsters fight one encounter per day, and die in that encounter. Daily powers for monsters don't really make a heck of a lot of sense, because monsters don't have to play the resource management game or anything.

As for strength of the powers, the entire game is exception based design, so nothing really has any base power guidelines, except for being relative to other things. And really, the monster powers don't seem that crazy awesome, except for elites or solos, where this is understandable since once elite = 2 PCs, and one solo = 5 PCs.

Monsters get things like monter summoning and mind control, so the fact that they get better mechanics thann PCs is an issue in my book.

But on the issue of playing the same game, it is a problem. Monsters can't be played differently from the way you described. They have to die in their one encounter because if they didn't the game gets stupid very fast.

I mean, if a monster has a good recharge power they are encouraged to stay out of attack range and let that power recharge rather than attack with their at will. This is because every turn in attack range you are getting attacked by PCs, so you might as well maximize your damage output. This leads to even longer and dumber combats where it becomes the PCs who are being kited.

The DM can't use tactics or else the game gets less fun, and I think that is a major problem.

[RandomCasualty2]

Monsters get things like monter summoning and mind control, so the fact that they get better mechanics thann PCs is an issue in my book.

Well for a DM, summoning really isn't a mechanic, it's basically a "your monster loses a standard action" ability because if you wanted to, you damn well could have just added an extra monster to the encounter. DMs don't need summoning because they can literally shape the encounter with as many monsters as they want.

But on the issue of playing the same game, it is a problem. Monsters can't be played differently from the way you described. They have to die in their one encounter because if they didn't the game gets stupid very fast.

I mean, if a monster has a good recharge power they are encouraged to stay out of attack range and let that power recharge rather than attack with their at will. This is because every turn in attack range you are getting attacked by PCs, so you might as well maximize your damage output. This leads to even longer and dumber combats where it becomes the PCs who are being kited.

The DM can't use tactics or else the game gets less fun, and I think that is a major problem.

Well I don't think it's necessarily bad to have a monster that hangs back and plays like an archer. I actually like the idea that monsters can play like different types of PCs, that's pretty cool.

I really don't want it to be the 3rd edition style where everything monstrous plays like a barbarian or a mage. It's rather nice to have some things fight like rogues, some like rangers, others fight like clerics and so on. That adds new tactical situations. So some monsters should hang back and toss fireballs or what not, since it creates a backline situation of "do we want to go after the archers or not."

The big deal though with archers (PC and NPC) is that the game needs some mechanics to reduce kiting, since kiting is seriously not fun. The big fail of 4E is that kiting is pretty much the best strategy ever, and that needs to be fixed.

[Tequila Sunrise]

They make stat blocks that are limited to a single level.

Well: that level plus or minus about five, using the DMG. You can't make a single stat block that works over thirty levels, because of things like flight.

That is true, though by stating a monster for one level only, the designers imply that that monster is only really appropriate for that level. I'd say that a better practice would be to stat monsters for entire tiers, or at least 5-level sub-tiers, rather than for individual levels.

TS

[K]

Monsters get things like monter summoning and mind control, so the fact that they get better mechanics thann PCs is an issue in my book.

Well for a DM, summoning really isn't a mechanic, it's basically a "your monster loses a standard action" ability because if you wanted to, you damn well could have just added an extra monster to the encounter. DMs don't need summoning because they can literally shape the encounter with as many monsters as they want.

Sure it is. Summoned monsters aren't worth XP and any "treasure" you get are part of the summoner's allotment, so when they show up they bone PCs in a completely unique way.

Take a Pit Fiend. If you play him the 4e way he summons some demons, then he explodes them and gets into a big melee with you.

If you play him the smart way, he blows his once per encounter power of summoning demons, and then he leaves. He flies pretty fast and uses crap 4e teleport so PCs are not going to really catch him. His summoned demons do some damage and force people to use healing surges and the like.

Then, when the arbitrary "encounter" ends, he comes back and does it again (and unless he's fighting in a featureless plane or other place with no hiding places, he can). Her rinses and repeats until the PCs are out of healing surges and are dead. Even if the PCs get lucky and lock him down long enough to kill him, if he can do this even once then they've had no XP encounters and he's had a disproportionate effect.

But on the issue of playing the same game, it is a problem. Monsters can't be played differently from the way you described. They have to die in their one encounter because if they didn't the game gets stupid very fast.

I mean, if a monster has a good recharge power they are encouraged to stay out of attack range and let that power recharge rather than attack with their at will. This is because every turn in attack range you are getting attacked by PCs, so you might as well maximize your damage output. This leads to even longer and dumber combats where it becomes the PCs who are being kited.

The DM can't use tactics or else the game gets less fun, and I think that is a major problem.

Well I don't think it's necessarily bad to have a monster that hangs back and plays like an archer. I actually like the idea that monsters can play like different types of PCs, that's pretty cool.

I really don't want it to be the 3rd edition style where everything monstrous plays like a barbarian or a mage. It's rather nice to have some things fight like rogues, some like rangers, others fight like clerics and so on. That adds new tactical situations. So some monsters should hang back and toss fireballs or what not, since it creates a backline situation of "do we want to go after the archers or not."

The big deal though with archers (PC and NPC) is that the game needs some mechanics to reduce kiting, since kiting is seriously not fun. The big fail of 4E is that kiting is pretty much the best strategy ever, and that needs to be fixed.

It's not that they play like archers. It is that they play better than PCs if you don't do the whole "melee on the battlemat" that 4e expects as a default.

Any amount of tactical or strategic creativity breaks the game, especially if a monster takes advantage of its powers or manipulates the environment to its advantage. Sure, a Dm can not do that, but it makes for a much less fun game as well as a less engaging and believable one.

[JonSetanta]

Take a Pit Fiend. If you play him the 4e way he summons some demons, then he explodes them and gets into a big melee with you.

If you play him the smart way, he blows his once per encounter power of summoning demons, and then he leaves. He flies pretty fast and uses crap 4e teleport so PCs are not going to really catch him. His summoned demons do some damage and force people to use healing surges and the like.

Then, when the arbitrary "encounter" ends, he comes back and does it again (and unless he's fighting in a featureless plane or other place with no hiding places, he can). Her rinses and repeats until the PCs are out of healing surges and are dead. Even if the PCs get lucky and lock him down long enough to kill him, if he can do this even once then they've had no XP encounters and he's had a disproportionate effect.

I don't think many 4e DMs are smart enough to do that, even though the abilities blatantly suggest such tactics in their frequency of use.
The real kick in the balls is that Pit Fiends are meant to be the Boss battle. Their mobility sucks. They can't add spells to their routine unless you bend the rules. They explode their own minions, a rather limited resource.
What the hell?

[Username17]

Sure, a Dm can not do that, but it makes for a much less fun game as well as a less engaging and believable one.

True. But didn't you read the 4e playbook? Verisimilitude can go fuck itself and everything that happens in the game happens for no reason. Embrace the "pure gamism" that is espoused by Mike and you too will be able to swallow things that happen in 4e.

The fact that monster abilities break the game explosively when used "in the world" is a small facet of the fact that the world of 4e breaks explosively when looked at from any angle. The entire minion mechanic completely falls down if Cyclops and Demon Soldier minions exist anywhere in the world while lower level characters exist in the world. The game simply breaks down completely if people are allowed to fight monsters of a level other than their own.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Sure it is. Summoned monsters aren't worth XP and any "treasure" you get are part of the summoner's allotment, so when they show up they bone PCs in a completely unique way.

Take a Pit Fiend. If you play him the 4e way he summons some demons, then he explodes them and gets into a big melee with you.

Basically summoner monsters are just prepackaged encounters. The pit fiend and his summons are an inseparable package.

If you play him the smart way, he blows his once per encounter power of summoning demons, and then he leaves. He flies pretty fast and uses crap 4e teleport so PCs are not going to really catch him. His summoned demons do some damage and force people to use healing surges and the like.

Then, when the arbitrary "encounter" ends, he comes back and does it again (and unless he's fighting in a featureless plane or other place with no hiding places, he can). Her rinses and repeats until the PCs are out of healing surges and are dead. Even if the PCs get lucky and lock him down long enough to kill him, if he can do this even once then they've had no XP encounters and he's had a disproportionate effect.

Well he needs 5 minutes of rest to do that. And honestly, I don't think the PCs will care that much about a bunch of summoned demons. The pit fiend also has only 3 surges, so the PCs can gradually wear him down as well.

It's not that they play like archers. It is that they play better than PCs if you don't do the whole "melee on the battlemat" that 4e expects as a default.

Any amount of tactical or strategic creativity breaks the game, especially if a monster takes advantage of its powers or manipulates the environment to its advantage. Sure, a Dm can not do that, but it makes for a much less fun game as well as a less engaging and believable one.

I dunno about that. The monsters don't seem especially broken if played tactically. There are a few exceptions, but even then, I don't feel like they're major ones.

[fliprushman]

Pit Fiend Tactics
A pit fiend fights close to its enemies, catching them in its
aura of fear and aura of fire. On the first round of combat, it
spends an action point to use infernal summons. It then uses
point of terror against a tough-looking foe and tactical teleport to
place two allies in flanking positions around that foe. With its
remaining minor action, the pit fiend uses irresistible command
on an ally within range.
A pit fiend alternates between point of terror and irresistible
command, sometimes using both if it has a spare move action it
can substitute with a minor action. Otherwise, the pit fiend uses
pit fiend frenzy, teleporting as needed to gain a better position.

Those tactics sound great and all but those tactics lead to the creature dying. Why would a creature that is supposed to be the highest ranked and most powerful devil remain in combat that long? If we go the route that K as proposed, You could Summon 1 War Devils with 4 Legion Devils, which gain a +4 bonus to hit, and then leave the field of battle. This would truly leave the players hurting because the legion devils work best together and the War Devil can keep them together. It also doesn't help that it gets a function of the mark mechanic that is better than the pc's mark mechanics. I think K's tactics are superior and they lead to the creature actually acting like a intelligent creature would which would spam the PC's.

[K]

Sure it is. Summoned monsters aren't worth XP and any "treasure" you get are part of the summoner's allotment, so when they show up they bone PCs in a completely unique way.

Take a Pit Fiend. If you play him the 4e way he summons some demons, then he explodes them and gets into a big melee with you.

Basically summoner monsters are just prepackaged encounters. The pit fiend and his summons are an inseparable package.

No. One set of summons and a pit fiend are an encounter. Once he does it twice, the encounter rules are broken.

If you play him the smart way, he blows his once per encounter power of summoning demons, and then he leaves. He flies pretty fast and uses crap 4e teleport so PCs are not going to really catch him. His summoned demons do some damage and force people to use healing surges and the like.

Then, when the arbitrary "encounter" ends, he comes back and does it again (and unless he's fighting in a featureless plane or other place with no hiding places, he can). Her rinses and repeats until the PCs are out of healing surges and are dead. Even if the PCs get lucky and lock him down long enough to kill him, if he can do this even once then they've had no XP encounters and he's had a disproportionate effect.

Well he needs 5 minutes of rest to do that. And honestly, I don't think the PCs will care that much about a bunch of summoned demons. The pit fiend also has only 3 surges, so the PCs can gradually wear him down as well.

I think they will. He can summon eight legion demons. They get a +4 to hit from the pit fiend. He can use a minor to give a -5 to defenses of someone who fails their save. I think legion demons also get some mad bonus for there being more than one legion demon.

So eight demons gang up on one guy at +4 to +9s to their regular level 21 stats to hit. I don't have the books so I haven't run the numbers, but I assume that's a dead PC right there since in no version of Dnd has a Wizard survived eight demon attacks. Round two the pit fiend uses his minor and someone else gets the gang-up and he escapes.

Rinse and repeat. Raise dead takes too long, so PCs will be dead long before even one PC gets raised.

[fliprushman]

OH and don't forget that this is a Elite monster so it's not going to be the only monster in the encounter.

[RandomCasualty2]

I think they will. He can summon eight legion demons. They get a +4 to hit from the pit fiend. He can use a minor to give a -5 to defenses of someone who fails their save. I think legion demons also get some mad bonus for there being more than one legion demon.

So eight demons gang up on one guy at +4 to +9s to their regular level 21 stats to hit. I don't have the books so I haven't run the numbers, but I assume that's a dead PC right there since in no version of Dnd has a Wizard survived eight demon attacks. Round two the pit fiend uses his minor and someone else gets the gang-up and he escapes.

Rinse and repeat. Raise dead takes too long, so PCs will be dead long before even one PC gets raised.

Actually, no. It's not going to be one PC, not by a long shot. Legion devils are minions, and they're doing only a small fraction of damage each round. They're also melee only, so you're not going to be able to focus fire all their attacks on one PC either. Hell, the party cleric may take out all 8 of those in one attack if he's lucky enough to hit them all, since minions die in one hit.

Really, the summoning isn't that big a deal, even if the pit fiend uses hit and run.

[K]

I think they will. He can summon eight legion demons. They get a +4 to hit from the pit fiend. He can use a minor to give a -5 to defenses of someone who fails their save. I think legion demons also get some mad bonus for there being more than one legion demon.

So eight demons gang up on one guy at +4 to +9s to their regular level 21 stats to hit. I don't have the books so I haven't run the numbers, but I assume that's a dead PC right there since in no version of Dnd has a Wizard survived eight demon attacks. Round two the pit fiend uses his minor and someone else gets the gang-up and he escapes.

Rinse and repeat. Raise dead takes too long, so PCs will be dead long before even one PC gets raised.

Actually, no. It's not going to be one PC, not by a long shot. Legion devils are minions, and they're doing only a small fraction of damage each round. They're also melee only, so you're not going to be able to focus fire all their attacks on one PC either. Hell, the party cleric may take out all 8 of those in one attack if he's lucky enough to hit them all, since minions die in one hit.

Really, the summoning isn't that big a deal, even if the pit fiend uses hit and run.

Why can't you just summon them around a PC? Potentially if all hit they can do 64 damage. What is the average HPs at that level for a Wizard?

[RandomCasualty2]

Why can't you just summon them around a PC? Potentially if all hit they can do 64 damage. What is the average HPs at that level for a Wizard?

More than 64, and even if the wizard goes down, you've got 4E super healing, which makes it basically impossible to kill anyone.

Even if you get knocked down to like -30, one healing word and you're back in the positives.

[mlangsdorf]

21st level wizard has a minimum of 100 hit points, assuming it started with a Con of 8. A more reasonable HP total is about 121 (Con 12 at start and Toughness feat at some point).

There's a lot of ways for a 21st level character to get out of that situation without taking too much damage, but even if worse comes to worse and the wizard gets ganked, it only takes 1 Inspiring/Healing Word to revive him (with ~42 hit points) and that's a minor action for the Leader type standing 10 squares away.

[MartinHarper]

This tactic eventually forces the attackers to retreat for an extended rest. It also requires the expenditure of hundreds of legion devils, sent over to the PCs in easily digested chunks. Depending on what happens when legion devils die, and how important delaying the attackers is, this may not be a good expenditure of resources.

[K]

It seems like the ideal is to try to drop the healer first and then force people to burn off healing surges.

Or gank a character and then have one of your minions escape with the body before a healer can pop his wad. I mean with eight minions people need to burn quite a few actions to kill them, even if they only have 1 HP.

It's dumb and gamist, but thems the breaks.

[MartinHarper]

I mean with eight minions people need to burn quite a few actions to kill them, even if they only have 1 HP.

Bear in mind that from level 11 we get things like Feylocks with Slashing Wake auto-killing adjacent minions with move actions. Given that the PCs can burn encounter powers freely in the knowledge that the Pit Devil is going to run away, I reckon the minions are only going to get a turn if they roll well on initiative.

[K]

I mean with eight minions people need to burn quite a few actions to kill them, even if they only have 1 HP.

Bear in mind that from level 11 we get things like Feylocks with Slashing Wake auto-killing adjacent minions with move actions. Given that the PCs can burn encounter powers freely in the knowledge that the Pit Devil is going to run away, I reckon the minions are only going to get a turn if they roll well on initiative.

Right, but you actually can summon them on top a guy, then have them teleport away while other guys do move and attack. Just staggering them in weird formations means that it might take 2-3 rounds to kill them all.

[RandomCasualty2]

It seems like the ideal is to try to drop the healer first and then force people to burn off healing surges.

The problem is that a good 4E party will have two healers. Either two actual leaders or at the very least a paladin with lay on hands. And if worse comes to worse, a character can always just make a DC 10 heal check as a standard action to let another character use their second wind. Doing that untrained is trivial for a character of level 20.

So even if by some miracle you take down the healer (which is damn hard because clerics usually have great defense at high levels too), you can rest assured that he's going to be revived next round no matter what.

Or gank a character and then have one of your minions escape with the body before a healer can pop his wad. I mean with eight minions people need to burn quite a few actions to kill them, even if they only have 1 HP.

Problem is that minions alone aren't going to take anybody down. It's just not going to happen. The most they can do is healing surge attrition.

[virgil]

Great defense for clerics you say? So a full +3 AC above the wizard?

And the attrition caused by this pit fiend is quite likely a very real attrition, much larger than he was balanced for it used in tactics other than his rather limited AI list.

[RandomCasualty2]

Great defense for clerics you say? So a full +3 AC above the wizard?

You're thinking at low levels. At higher levels, it's almost certain the cleric is going to have at least scale proficiency if not plate (probably plate), since you've really got nothing worth burning feats on, getting armor and shield proficiencies is big. So by epic levels, your cleric is going to have as good AC (or almost as good AC) as your fighter.

[Username17]

Yeah, but Wizards can upgrade to Hide for the same feat price. And with their Int focus, they are likely walking into the game with a +9 Int Bonus by the end-stage. At the highest levels, the only difference between God Plate on a Cleric and Elderhide on a Wizard is the fact that the Cleric can and will carry a shield.

By 29th level, the Cleric AC bonus falls to +2.

-Username17

[MartinHarper]

I am glad we have finally found a situation where it is tactically optimal, if strategically wasteful, to send lesser devils in to attack the heroes in small groups. As opposed to:

I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.

[virgil]

That was the entire point for 4E, so I'm confused as to why you forgot. No character exceeds another at anything they have/do by more than +2 or +3, throughout their entire career. The fact wizard attack bonuses are generally a couple points behind the fighter is a wash when non-AC defenses tend to be a couple points behind as well.

[Lago PARANOIA]

...Sorry, I just couldn't keep a straight face after reading that. The 4e DMG's monster creation guidelines are far from perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than 3e's guidelines. Monster creation guidelines in 3e were an afterthought; they had a guideline for monster AB, but no mention of equally important stats like how much damage a monster should deal or how high the DCs should be for major spells/abilities.

4e at least gives you guidelines for all the important monster stats, even if the designers themselves didn't follow them exactly.

What are you talking about? Monster creation in 3E worked just fine. The three biggest problem were trying to alter existing already-broken monsters (like dragons), giving a higher-level monster credible magic-based class powers, and determining just how difficult a monster should be.

But if you wanted to make a horde of half-dragon T-Rexes with a crew of kobold mages flinging low-level spells on them, you could do that. They will play and feel a lot differently than an orc riding on the backs of wyvern.


I've read the monster alteration and creation rules in 4E. It's so pitiful they had to banish it to the DMG, and most of the abilities boil down to 'tweak its stats a little bit higher'. Fucking pitiful.