Why does 4th Edition have classes anyway?

[K]

First, things that are covered by "skills" as you say... well, I don't even care to write a seperare system for most of those things. Aside from the social mini-game that does need to be built robustly, every other thing on your list is something I could do really well when I was five. I am perfectly happy if hiding was just a stat check and mechanic available to everyone.

Seriously. You don't need a separate system where some people notice things better than others when you can just base it off a stat. One of 3e's mistakes was that every monster was either "crazy Spot guy" or "won't notice anything guy". Why even have a system when it goes binary like that?

So, there aren't going to be abilities related to any of those areas? No invisibility, no divination, no knock, no charm, etc., etc.?

I was just trying to point out that there are an awful lot of things people might want to have abilities to do, and if you expect everyone to have all (or even most) of them, there's not going to be much left to select afterward. At least, not based on the numbers thrown around thus far.

Well, knock and charm are dumb, one because it's a waste of a real ability and the other because it is either a massive power boost and save or die or it's nerfed by DMs into uselessness.

That being said, there is a seperate non-combat track of abilities based on someone's background. So someone with the Ritualist background can be a fighter like Elric who casts ritual spells like divinations and in combat stabinates and people like King Arthur who gets things done out of combat because people think he's awesome and are honored to cast a few divination spells for him(Royalty background).

Things that are both combat and non-combat need two versions. Combat invisibility and out-of-combat invisibility have to be two different versions.

Second. I don't care about people with more variety. If everyone gets the same general abilities, then any synergies you are getting by double sipping from two class lists is offset by synergies you are losing from getting more abilities from your list that already have built in synergies.

People will get synergies. Accept it\ and in the playtest phase take out the bad synergies. That's the only choice.

Could you give some examples of the kind of synergies that specialists are supposed to be getting to offset the disadvantages of specialization? Perhaps the impression I've gotten from all the talk about "bad synergies" has been exaggerated, but if so, it would be really helpful to clarify what's supposed to be in the game.

An example a built in synergy would be something like a Druid's Entangle that creates vines and might entangle guys for a round. Pollen Strike is a spell that is more powerful if there is lots of vegetation in the area, so it makes a natural one-two combo.

So a Druid/Fighter isn't likely to have both Entangle and Pollen Strike considering he only gets one spell per spell level. He might have a good synergy between Pollen Strike and Deadly Feint since it attacks Will and Pollen Strike reduces Will temporarily, but that's a different synergy.

[NoDot]

In classic D&D, the power sources that people think exist are:

• Extraplanar (this is where Clerics and Demons get their power).
• Elemental (this is where Wizards and Dragons get their power).
• Natural (this is where Druids and Faries get their power).
• Psychic (this is where Monks and Ilithid get their power).
• Death (this is where Necromancers and Undead get their power).

In D&D as is, shouldn't there be a sixth:

• Superhuman (Rogues and RoW): You trained. Hard. Now you swim in lava.
  
  (If it should exist is another question...)

[Manxome]

An example a built in synergy would be something like a Druid's Entangle that creates vines and might entangle guys for a round. Pollen Strike is a spell that is more powerful if there is lots of vegetation in the area, so it makes a natural one-two combo.

OK, that particular example doesn't really seem to help, because the two abilities that are synergizing already have totally different tactical roles (one is a single-target strike ane one is battlefield control). Players are still rewarded for getting abilities that fulfill a variety of functions and tactical roles.

I was looking for something that gives me an advantage for selecting 4 melee powers instead of 1 melee power, an invisibility spell, a debuff, and tremorsense. Or whatever.

Unless you've got some clever scheme I haven't picked up on that'll force the fighter/druid with Entangle to get the fighter's so-so bow attack and the druid's so-so quarterstaff instead of spending the druid slot on Pollen Strike and the warrior slot on Power Attack. Or something.

[K]

An example a built in synergy would be something like a Druid's Entangle that creates vines and might entangle guys for a round. Pollen Strike is a spell that is more powerful if there is lots of vegetation in the area, so it makes a natural one-two combo.

OK, that particular example doesn't really seem to help, because the two abilities that are synergizing already have totally different tactical roles (one is a single-target strike ane one is battlefield control). Players are still rewarded for getting abilities that fulfill a variety of functions and tactical roles.

I was looking for something that gives me an advantage for selecting 4 melee powers instead of 1 melee power, an invisibility spell, a debuff, and tremorsense. Or whatever.

The classes will be set up in such a way that:

1. Everyone does every role as a consequence of picking two powers of each spell level, and

2. Whether that role is done well with that specific power is a function of circumstances. For example, the 3e spell Shatter is kind of nice but if you are fighting crystal creatures it is stupid high damage at 3rd level.

In a single class you will have more powers that set up circumstances for your powers.

And people actually get less powerful if they dip into two classes and take all Control powers. They won't be able to fill any other roles or set up their control powers, even though the chances are better of having a specific control power that works well in the current circumstances (for example, you don't need an Entangle for your Pollen Strike if you are already in an heavily vegetated area).

[Manxome]

OK, maybe I'm just not getting it, but it sounds like we're going around in a circle something like:

Me: "People who multiclass will be better because they'll be able to fill more roles."
K: "Not a problem, because everyone fills every role, just not equally efficiently or not in the same way."
Me: "That doesn't fix it. Being able to do more things well or being able to do them optimally in more situations is still beneficial diversity. You'd have to basically make all classes identical to fix the problem that way."
K: "But people who choose all their powers from one class will get synergies that will make up for not covering as many bases."
Me: "Your examples of synergies don't involve covering fewer bases, so I don't see how that helps. People will just pick up one set of synergizing abilities from class X, which do whatever class X is good at, and then another synergizing set from class Y, which cover whatever Y is good at."
K: "Not a problem, because everyone fills every role."

Am I missing something, or are you actually talking in circles without solving any of the problems?

[K]

OK, maybe I'm just not getting it, but it sounds like we're going around in a circle something like:

Me: "People who multiclass will be better because they'll be able to fill more roles."
K: "Not a problem, because everyone fills every role, just not equally efficiently or not in the same way."
Me: "That doesn't fix it. Being able to do more things well or being able to do them optimally in more situations is still beneficial diversity. You'd have to basically make all classes identical to fix the problem that way."
K: "But people who choose all their powers from one class will get synergies that will make up for not covering as many bases."
Me: "Your examples of synergies don't involve covering fewer bases, so I don't see how that helps. People will just pick up one set of synergizing abilities from class X, which do whatever class X is good at, and then another synergizing set from class Y, which cover whatever Y is good at."
K: "Not a problem, because everyone fills every role."

Am I missing something, or are you actually talking in circles without solving any of the problems?

Here's where I think the disconnect is:

List A: contain X, Y, and Z roles. Has synergies between these powers because these powers are better in some specific circumstances and you can create these circumstances with these powers.

List B: contains X, Y, Z roles. Has synergies between these powers because these powers are better in some specific circumstances and you can create these circumstances with these powers.

So, you are saying "oh, nos! Someone with access to List A and List B can get so many X powers that they have a good X power for every situation!"

I reply: "I don't care. It comes at the cost of the Y and Z roles. You've made yourself useless in more situations."

You: "But I might find good synergies between List A and List B powers."

Me: "Sure, you might. But since you have half as many powers in list A and in list B, you are missing out on a bunch of the built-in list A and list B synergies."

[Manxome]

No, that's a totally inaccurate description of what I'm worried about. I'm not concerned that overspecialized characters are going to be powerful, I'm worried that underspecialized characters will be.

My assumptions are:
1. Class B is better at something than class A. That doesn't have to be a broad category like "battlefield control," it might be something like "killing flying elementals that come in swarms whose sizes are all prime numbers."
2. A single-class member of class A is going to have abilities that overlap. For example, a fighter might have 3 slightly different sword strokes used for killing single targets. Not necessarily exactly the same, but similar enough that more than one of them could be appropriate for a given situation, and so their combined utility is less than the sum of their individual utilities.

My worry is: a multiclass A/B is going to find two similar abilities that a single-class A would take and swap one of them out for a less similar power from the B list, thereby increasing his versatility at no real cost.

This can be prevented if:
A) Powers from list A overlap with each other no more than they overlap with powers from list B. This means either (i) all of a player's powers are expected to overlap each other the same amount--if you can do any 2 things that are totally different, then everything you can do must be totally different from every other thing you can do, or (ii) lists A and B actually cover exactly the same stuff.
B) Having your powers overlap is not actually a disadvantage. This means either (i) overlapping abilities bestow synergies proportional to their degree of overlap, or (ii) something clever that I haven't thought of.

You have said various things at various points that come kind of close to meeting conditions A(i), A(ii), and B(i), but when pressed you don't seem to quite fulfill any of them, which means the problem is still there.

[K]

Assumption 2 is incorrect. Powers must be wildly different from each other even within the same class, but they also must share a thematic core. Not only is it the fun solution, but it creates the necessary tactical variety.

So no such thing as Fire 1 and Fire 2. Each power has to do something unique, so no "combat strike that's good vs. golems and Ok vs. everything else" sitting next to "combat strike that's good vs. undead and Ok vs. everything else" on your character sheet. It should be more like "Disarm, Grapple, Trip" (just as an example...I intend these actual things to be basic combat maneuvers).

Sure, it takes more creativity to design that, but if I wanted to go the 4e route of making each power a different amount of damage that may or may not use one of seven specific mechanics, then I'd just play 4e.

[Manxome]

So, your party is engaged in a forced march through a forest, and as fatigue starts to set in and the sun dips below the horizon, suddenly one of the trees stands up. Its laugh is like the rustle of branches in the wind as its needles begin shooting towards you with supernatural precision and its roots rise out of the ground to grapple you. You look down as your character sheet and see...one ability (at most) that you think you might want to use on your turn.

Is that what you mean by "no overlap?" Because if there's two abilities that you're having trouble deciding between, then it seems to me that you'd be better off swapping one of those out for a power that will be useful when you're swimming through the river of souls and you see the telltale swirling mist of a dark water elemental.

[K]

So, your party is engaged in a forced march through a forest, and as fatigue starts to set in and the sun dips below the horizon, suddenly one of the trees stands up. Its laugh is like the rustle of branches in the wind as its needles begin shooting towards you with supernatural precision and its roots rise out of the ground to grapple you. You look down as your character sheet and see...one ability (at most) that you think you might want to use on your turn.

Is that what you mean by "no overlap?" Because if there's two abilities that you're having trouble deciding between, then it seems to me that you'd be better off swapping one of those out for a power that will be useful when you're swimming through the river of souls and you see the telltale swirling mist of a dark water elemental.

I'll finish this scenario, even though none of the powers are written or balanced yet and combat is pretty muddled.

Let's say you are a 5th level Mage mage character and you have 5 abilities(I'll make a few sample powers).

Ok, it's a large tree so it's vulnerable to fire. You know this because you are a real adventurer.

You have Fireball. The tree is in Close range, so if you fire it off it'll hit you and the party. On the upside, it's a fire spell and that will cause the tree to burn without getting a save and take Wounds every turn(and Wounds kill, not HP damage). Mmm, think about it for later.

You have Shocking Grasp. This spell gets -1 Wounds on trees above the armor value it has which reduces Wounds, but it is a Close spell. Too bad it's not a metal tree or in water you'd get to bypass it's armor when you wound. Not great, but it's what we have.

You have Wall of Stone. That'll push the tree out of Close this turn and do some damage, but it attacks Body and does no damage on a save and the tree looks to be high Body. On the upside, if you use this successfully you can break the grapple before it can damage you. On the downside everyone might have to use a move to get back into Close with the tree and the melee fighter won't like that.

You have Shout. This is another Close spell that has a chance to cancel spells on the round they are cast on a failed save, and it does non-Wounding damage. Too bad the tree is not a golem, or this would be a good choice. Since you are being grappled, using this spell to blow up some ground for a temporary cloud of dust for concealment(+4 defence) or knocking down some trees for cover is not an option.

You have Acid Stream. It does base damage in this situation, and must be used from Short unless you want a chance of hitting friends. You could take the chance of a Move by hoping that the enemy won't make the grapple attack and then fire this off. It's good consistent damage.

You have two control powers, two single target, and an area spell, and you picked all Evocations except for one Conjuration. You have one Long spell, two Short, and two Close. Two of your powers are good for changing terrain in non-combat. In general, you are a blasting type character.

Here are some options:

--You could use Wall of Stone and hope it works so you could take a Move, then next turn and fireball or acid arrow (possibly with a Press for better accuracy if it didn't follow you). Or, you could Press the Wall of Stone and hope to reposition next next.

--You could turtle on Defense this turn and use Shocking Grasp. It's a safe bet, and probably the one you'd take if you knew someone else had a good choice. You could Shout too since it does more damage, but since this it early in the combat you can't Wound the monster with this (you can when it is out of HPs though).

--You could just drop the Fireball right here. You have a Ring of the Salamander which acts like armor for Fire spells, and the rest of the party is well armored except for the Archer. But, the archer has mastered Boots of the Sky so he can do a Leaping Strike that lets him cancel all AoE damage to himself while doing a normal attack. He goes later in this turn, so he could do it. Unfortunately, he'd be giving up a ranged Staple that could take a move away from the tree and we know the tree has pretty good Close powers. This will set the forest on fire and create smoke next turn, so it's not a great idea.

--The tree has a good body and you have an average Body. Grappling it it probably a bad idea, even though with a Press this turn you'd be evenish.

What do you do?

[Manxome]

I would wonder: in what situation is Acid Stream such a better alternative to both Fireball and Shocking Grasp that it was worth taking it instead of power that would give me, say, healing, combat stealth, teleportation, summoning...or, heck, just a move that's actually decent when an enemy is trying to grapple me?

It sounds to me like those powers overlap. Wall of Stone and Shout both seem to be defensively-oriented close-range attacks (they work against different types of attacks, but same general category). Shocking Grasp and Fireball sound like they adequately cover most situations when you need to blast something without the need for an Acid Stream. Given that I don't seem to have enough powers to have a trick for every situation, why would I get powers that are so similar?

If I had instead done an evoker/druid multiclass, I could still have Fireball, Shocking Grasp, and Shout, but add in Tranquility, a power that lets me turn invisible and slowly regenerate health at the cost of being unable to move or act, and Faerie Fire, a spell that creates a controllable cloud of light that can either outline foes (making them easier to hit) or partially blind them. I'd have an answer to a wider variety of situations, and I doubt I'd be significantly worse off in many.

[K]

I would wonder: in what situation is Acid Stream such a better alternative to both Fireball and Shocking Grasp that it was worth taking it instead of power that would give me, say, healing, combat stealth, teleportation, summoning...or, heck, just a move that's actually decent when an enemy is trying to grapple me?

It sounds to me like those powers overlap. Wall of Stone and Shout both seem to be defensively-oriented close-range attacks (they work against different types of attacks, but same general category). Shocking Grasp and Fireball sound like they adequately cover most situations when you need to blast something without the need for an Acid Stream. Given that I don't seem to have enough powers to have a trick for every situation, why would I get powers that are so similar?

If I had instead done an evoker/druid multiclass, I could still have Fireball, Shocking Grasp, and Shout, but add in Tranquility, a power that lets me turn invisible and slowly regenerate health at the cost of being unable to move or act, and Faerie Fire, a spell that creates a controllable cloud of light that can either outline foes (making them easier to hit) or partially blind them. I'd have an answer to a wider variety of situations, and I doubt I'd be significantly worse off in many.

Well, Acid Stream lets you fire from outside of combat into combat without hurting allies (it also does consistent damage, neither good nor bad in any situation). Since Fireball hurts people in melee, you've pidgeon-holed yourself as a melee combatant who starts off combats with a bang. Good luck with that.

Also, I wouldn't give either of those powers to a druid. They are straight up "illusionist" powers, so we'll pretend you said illusionist.

Tranquility isn't going to give combat healing, but lets say it is "combat escape." It also won't be helping with grapple(since grapple is natural counter to invisibility), but it does let you counter almost every other attack that isn't an Short AoE or bigger. It replaces Wall of Stone at 2nd Order.

Faerie Fire is nice debuff and it affects an area, and it would take the place of Fireball in the 3rd Order spells. So, you choose one or the other (and since it's your 3rd Order spells that you get at 5th, its an important choice to make because every other power comes from the other class).

You don't like Shout, which is a surprise because I think it is a really tasty niche. So, let's replace it with a 2nd Order spell that helps with grapples: Stone Pillar (note that you have one 2nd Order illusion so this must come from mage). You rise up on a stone pillar. It's a form of escape spell that doesn't work in Close spaces, but it prevents Close AoE and grapples at the price of you needing to pass a Reflex save every round of fall off and take small amounts of potentially wounding damage(someone destroying the pillar forces you to fall).

As a multiclass, you also need to drop Acid Stream or Shocking Grasp as they are both 1st Order Mage powers, and you can only have one Mage power and the other is Illusionist. So let's assume you drop Shocking Grasp because otherwise your combat suffers quite a bit, so you pick up the equivalent Illusion Close attack spell of Hidden Strike of the Betrayer where you use illusion to go invisible for a second while you attack them with a weapon. It requires a weapon and a Will save, but it is better than normal physical attacks that attack Reflex.

You now have a Close single target attack power(1st), a Short Single target power(1st), two escape powers(2nd), and either fireball or Faerie fire depending on whether you are illusionist or mage dominant. I'd probably drop one of the escape powers and get back Shout or Shatter, but I tend to like to mixed offense and defense.

As an illusionist/mage, you will never have access to combat teleportation or combat healing (and neither will a druid, in case you were wondering). Combat summoning was an option on the mage side, but I didn't want to hit you with too many new mechanics at once since summoning is a whole new subsystem.

So, do you get a good idea of how things will work? At each spell level only certain kinds of effects are possible and all of your slots compete fo those effects. There are no bigger fireballs or more dangerous fireballs or wierder fireballs at other spell levels because everything like a fireball is at level 3, and once you fill up your 3rd level slots you can have at most two fireball-like effects. If you fill those slots with the other things that only happen at 3rd level that aren't fireball, then no fireballs for you.

Also, there is no tolerance for thematic drift. If a spell produces fire damage, it is an evocation; there will be no summoning a dragon for a round to blow fire and trying to call it a conjuration... it is an evocation. Tree Stride is not a druid power that uses the power of nature....it is a combat teleportation effect and Sorcerers get that. Conjuring balls of acid or rocks to throw at people is an evocation.

I'm actually surprised about how much of the system I already have done.

[fliprushman]

I thought it was all hypothetical too until you started posting this. So far I can see where the discussions have lead but what about things like Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Illusionist or even a straight Fighter?

[JonSetanta]

In D&D as is, shouldn't there be a sixth:

• Superhuman (Rogues and RoW): You trained. Hard. Now you swim in lava.
  
  (If it should exist is another question...)

Training harder is always an option in anime. Benefits in RPG would likewise be limited to deceptively mundane effects yet supernatural in intensity.
Punching through steel and granite, destroying buildings with a kick, running as fast as a bullet... in a supernatural sense all this and more should be possible.
It's the act of focusing ambient magic into oneself for permanent improvement, that same energy that could otherwise be harnessed as wasteful and temporary 'spellcasting'.

Train harder: it's the default statement when someone loses.

"I must.. train.. harder... hrrrg"

[Username17]

In D&D as is, shouldn't there be a sixth:

• Superhuman (Rogues and RoW): You trained. Hard. Now you swim in lava.
  
  (If it should exist is another question...)

Actually no. I was talking about what power sources people think exist. No one really believes in the Martial Power Source - people who just train hard and don't have some kind of magic to draw upon in time of need are treated like bitches by D&D players. Now game mechanically you can make the claim that there's an Arcane source that includes spell-like abilities and wizard spells and a Divine source that is druids and clerics, and then there's every other power that people have that is like internal or something. But people don't treat the game that way. Even though Psionics are a spell-like and thus game mechanically treated like an Arcane Spell for everything that matters, people think of Psionics as being different from Arcane and Divine Magics - just as they think of Necromancy as being inherently distinct from the rest of magic despite the complete lack of game mechanical support for that.

You can see these attitudes coming through in stuff like Magic of Incarnum. Just the fact that no one is really surprised that there's a whole separate set of "Necrocarnum" that's black and powers zombies shows us how willing people are to segregate Necromancy from the rest of the game. You can see the same thing coming through every time the game talks about Clerics and Druids - even the freelance writers can't really bring themselves to consider those groups to be the same deal. And indeed by 4th edition they chopped Druids right out of the Divine power source and no one thought that was a weird move.

But people who just train super hard get no respect in D&D. They never have, and they frankly never will. The solution isn't to keep pushing and demanding that "non-magic" maneuvers be put on the same power level as prismatic spray - the solution is to just put the "Fighting Man" back where he belongs: as a faceless mook cut down by the dozens. We can't take player characters seriously who don't have "powers" and D&D players flat don't accept decent powers being given to someone who doesn't have an available magical excuse. The Martial Source has got to die.

4e is nearly on the right track with their power source assessment. The problems are:

• Martial isn't a real power source. No one accepts it, no one likes it, it has to go.
• Arcane is not different from Elemental.
• Psychic is not different from Ki.

-Username17

[Manxome]

OK, K, you clearly have a far more detailed idea of what you want than I have previously read about, and clearly care way more than I intended about the details of a hypothetical example I made up on the spot. And your thoughts about theme and tactics are also clearly different from my initial assumptions.

But I'm running out of ways of explain my point. When I discuss it in abstract, you end up defending yourself from worries that are utterly different from anything I intended; when I try to offer a concrete example, you rewrite the details of my example so that it no longer exemplifies my point, but without actually articulating any general principles to avoid the problem cropping up in another example (unless I'm just not getting it).

By your own designs...

Also, there is no tolerance for thematic drift. If a spell produces fire damage, it is an evocation; there will be no summoning a dragon for a round to blow fire and trying to call it a conjuration... it is an evocation. Tree Stride is not a druid power that uses the power of nature....it is a combat teleportation effect and Sorcerers get that. Conjuring balls of acid or rocks to throw at people is an evocation.

...different classes are clearly getting effects that are tactically different and useful in different situations. Evokers get fire but not teleportation; sorcerers get teleportation but not fire; evokers/sorcerers get both. How does this not make evokers/sorcerers better?

Your most recent defense was that you have no redundant powers to trade out for non-redundant ones, but your model seems to involve evokers spending 60% of their powers on nukes, so even if you can justify those particular selections as not overlapping at all--and I'm seriously not buying that--I don't see how this is going to scale. The numbers you suggested earlier were 10 powers plus 4 feats.

And, yes, I realize you probably deliberately chose a constrained example to avoid unnecessary complication, but are you really claiming that the following statements are equally plausible/implausible:

1) "In situation X, you'd really like to have Shocking Grasp, but Acid Stream would do in a pinch."
2) "In situation X, you'd really like to have Shocking Grasp, but Tree Stride would do in a pinch."

It really seems to me like the amount of tactical overlap there can't possibly be the same.

[K]

Ok, here is the simple version:

1. Every class gets unique things.*

2. As a single class, you won't have enough power selections to do all the unique things your class does. The current model is that you get half, plus the potential for four more(but a lot of things compete for those slots, so don't assume they fill up with class powers). So a 6th level gets 6/12 powers.

3. As a multi-class, you get even fewer selections from each class. A sixth level is only doing 3/12 in one class and 3/12 in another.

4. Result: you won't do as many unique things in a particular class as if you were a single class. You get some unique things from one class and some unique things from another class.

*Some of your unique things will be like other things. For example, all evocations do damage. This means that if you really wanted to you could only have one Evocation and you could reuse it every time you needed a damaging effect. The problem with that is it won't fit well with the tactical situations you are likely to encounter.

For example, this means you could use Acid Stream for every battle. As a result, you'd be hitting your friends and yourself with acid damage a lot of the time. Tactically, that is is where value is created in having other kinds of damage that use different mechanics.

This is because each class is the sole owner of a specific effect. Area damage may be at 3rd Order, but only Mages get Fireball with its unique mechanic.

------------------------------------

I also think that there might be some disconnect between non-combat powers and combat powers.

Teleport in 3e can be used in combat and out of combat. In TNE, that is not true so weighing powers by that metric is a waste of time.

Combat powers last a round. If you want them to stay up, you renew them next round by using them again; this means a TNE Wall of Stone crumbles when the person maintaining it stops.

This also means that uses of powers are limited. For example, combat invisibility cannot be used to sneak into a building. Combat teleportation won't get you past a locked door. Combat walls of stone cannot be used to built castles.

You have a separate list of powers that cover out of combat versions of those effects. We have not discussed those much, but it has come up here a few times.

[Username17]

You know honestly, I think that while there's a lot salvageable in there, I still have huge disagreements.

---

Let's consider the idea that only Evokers get fire bolts, or electrical bolts, or magic flying rocks, or anything that works like that. That's wrong. Everyone needs to have attacks, which means that everyone needs something that works kind of like that. Our Evoker therefore is either out in the cold while everyone takes essentially similar attack powers or everyone is forced to multiclass into Evoker just so that they can compete in combat at all. Neither option is good.

Remember that an option you don't take or don't use is just like an option you don't have and never had access to. So if our Evoker has access to fire bolt, and acid arrow, and cold ray, and whatever else, that doesn't actually make any difference if everyone has the same number of attack powers of that level and the Fighter gets "ray of shooting a fucking arrow into your face." Sure an Evoker has more depth of what kind of attacks he could have had but apparently his actual number of attacks will be fixed.

But also, if I'm a plant guy, I want to Tree Stride. I don't think that's at all unreasonable. And if I'm already a teleporting dude I don't give a crap whether I have a Tree Stride ability.

---

I think that the Fantastic! thought experiment is much more the direction that things want to go as far as classes. Each character should get a list and a certain guaranty that they can cover some minimal bases that the game expects you to be able to handle. Everyone's list gives them some sort of list appropriate basic attack, for example. Everyone needs some kind of movement augmentation available.

But the list you get should give you more options both in character generation and in actual play for some categories and less options in others as regards other lists. If you're a Shadow guy, you have various cool Necromancy and Illusion stuff at your beck and call, but you don't have the depth of maneuvers that go "thwack" as an Elementalist guy. A psychic guy should have a lot more different kinds of teleportation than a tree guy does. Not only does the psychic guy have much more depth of options to choose from during character generation (all those weird teleportation moves that shift allies and enemies around the map or transpose characters and so on), but he should actually have more of them as an actual character in play than the tree guy does. The Tree dude basically just has the option of the Leyline Walk and the Tree Stride, and he might even have to choose one or the other (or even have to sacrifice one of his other optionals to get just one of those); and the psychic dude just has a pile of teleport stuff to call on as needed.

Ability list classes should give you more or less to do in different parts of the game. If you put an Elemental power source on your character sheet, you want to burn shit, and you should really feel that your character is in his element when it comes to setting shit on fire. You shouldn't find that you have the same number of attack choices as other character types.

---

And this is why I think that you shouldn't mix classes. Each class should be broad enough to cover a lot of ground, and each class should brig something special to the table. And players should feel jealous over the things that other characters do, and they should not actually get their hands on those exact abilities.

A Druid should get some teleportation, but the character should have less tleportation than the guys who do that as a primary shtick. They should get some attacks, but less attacks than the people who do that as a primary shtick. They should not have a monopoly on battlefield control, but they should get more of it than other character types, because that's their primary shtick.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

I think the main disagreement is what constitutes the minimal base. K is clearly putting a lot more into that category. So much more that there are no roles to protect, tactically speaking, IMO.

In general I'd agree that its either strongly classes or classless. For TNE classless better suits the objective, namely a replacement for D&D. The reason being that no two people here are especially likely to agree on a set of classes.

[K]

Let's consider the idea that only Evokers get fire bolts, or electrical bolts, or magic flying rocks, or anything that works like that. That's wrong. Everyone needs to have attacks, which means that everyone needs something that works kind of like that. Our Evoker therefore is either out in the cold while everyone takes essentially similar attack powers or everyone is forced to multiclass into Evoker just so that they can compete in combat at all. Neither option is good.

I never actually said that there was an Evoker. I just mentioned that the sample mage had a lot of evocation powers, and I toyed with the idea of certain mechanics being unique to certain classes.

At the end of the day, everyone needs attacks that allow them to cover all the tactical bases. Some people will use fire attacks and some people will cut a line of swording fury and some people will cause plants to animate and punch guys and some people summon hellhounds. It doesn't even matter because fantasy fiction has an unlimited number of power sources like "shadow" or "time" or "love" and no one cares if you break them (for the record, the Forsaken in Wheel of Time use Yin or Yang and also use Dark Source).

If a player wants to be the only person who gets area attacks, then he doesn't get to play at my table. I seriously am tired of people continuously saying "but I'm not just a Mage, I'm an Evoker who is better and anyone who wants to use fire magic stepping on my toes." That person actually wants situations where other people are useless and they are the only possible hero.

Good adventures are hard to write simply because no writer knows what PCs are supposed to be able to do because every system to date allows people to get such divergent abilities that it is possible to make things well off the range. That problem killed Rifts, made WoD a joke, and spawned countless remakes of DnD. The solution to that problem is to give people abilities based on levels that cover some consistent ground for everyone.

It's like trying to play a chess game where someone told you that you couldn't play with rooks or pawns and they could. It's not fair, not fun, and not a tactical game any more. Oh, you could play and maybe even win and have some fun, but it's a senseless and masochistic endeavor.

I'm a big enough man to say "I don't want situations where other people can't play the game."

[Username17]

If a player wants to be the only person who gets area attacks, then he doesn't get to play at my table. I seriously am tired of people continuously saying "but I'm not just a Mage, I'm an Evoker who is better and anyone who wants to use fire magic stepping on my toes." That person actually wants situations where other people are useless and they are the only possible hero.

No. The idea is that once you've made your game system, the number of power sources actually is not extensible. You throw in other power sources, and you're irrevocably changing the game into a different one. And while that can sometimes be done without upsetting the entire apple cart, mostly those apples get tossed.

A lot of people want there to be a guy whose primary contribution to the tactical capability of the team is that he has more and bigger explosions than the other characters. Call hm the nuker, the artillery, or the magic user, but it's a role that people are familiar with and a lot of people have affection for. That doesn't mean that you have to include it, but it does mean that you don't have the fucking right to get indignant about some people suggesting that they want it to exist.

At some point you have to bite the bullet and make a decision about what the exact limits of your magic system actually are. And having different character paths that excel at different tactical facets is a pretty decent start. On the five directional "duplicate D&D settings" idea, you'd give each of them a primary, secondary, and tertiary shtick, and try to keep to it.

• Elemental Blasting primary, Control secondary, Mobility tertiary.
• Natural Control primary, Healing secondary, Mobility tertiary.
• Planar Healing primary, Summoning secondary, Cursing tertiary.
• Psychic Mobility primary, Cursing secondary, Blasting tertiary
• Shadow Summoning primary, Mobility secondary, Control tertiary.

You know, something like that. And being a specialist in "blasting" is pretty different from being a specialist in "summoning" because everyone gets some amount of blasting going on, while only people who actually do some summoning actually get to summon shit.

for the record, the Forsaken in Wheel of Time use Yin or Yang and also use Dark Source

Uh... sort of. The Dark Source actually gets Imbue with Spell Ability, allowing Dark Lord puppet masters to artificially raise the threat levels of normal dudes. So the Forsaken don't actually have any Dark Source powers on their character sheet, other people can use abilities that allow them to borrow dark source powers from them. This way the monster of the week can threaten main characters without actually being any good at anything inherently. The main characters eventually learn how to dispel that power and leave enemies unboosted and forced to rely on their inherent Yin or Yang bullshit.

But of course, that's neither here nor there. Although it's an interesting model for emulation, since it's a plausible model for why you keep fighting dudes who are near your level of power without the entire enemy side being totally hard core - the enemy king can simply turn his own dudes into a champion of evil one at a time, meaning that the enemy can throw up level appropriate challenges one at a time.

-Username17

[virgil]

I noticed that Frank was largely agreeing with K on the whole role part. Neither say that major roles need to be wholly lacking in any class, just some have more (the mentalist has only one damaging AoE, while the fire mage has several), and once you have someone who's better or more versatile with a particular role then that person is considered the king when that role is needed.

Fantasy fiction, as a whole, has an indeterminably large number of sources. Any specific piece of fiction, however, has a very small and very finite source total. If you have your game world be "whatever fantasy character you want, tooled to be level-appropriate", then you have the recipe for Rifts on your hands.

[Bigode]

It seems that under this system, someone can't have, say, any knowledge of psychic and shadow powers. At that point, why'd someone not just make everyone's class be adventurer?

[Username17]

It seems that under this system, someone can't have, say, any knowledge of psychic and shadow powers.

Right, although there would presumably be a list of "universal" powers. Everything explicitly on the Shadow or Psychic lists would be by definition reserved for those kinds of characters.

At that point, why'd someone not just make everyone's class be adventurer?

Because going single class like that (that is, dumping everything on the universal list) decreases character variety and makes the game less evocative. Slayers is, when it comes down to it, kind of simplistic in the characters it supports.

-Username17

[Bigode]

Right, although there would presumably be a list of "universal" powers. Everything explicitly on the Shadow or Psychic lists would be by definition reserved for those kinds of characters.

Yeah, that sounds much better; but, at that point, it seems the source lists would actually be quite small - just trademark stuff? Though, funnily, I'd still prefer the old idea of ordering levels of larger numbers of classes by uniqueness - anything wrong with it?

Because going single class like that (that is, dumping everything on the universal list) decreases character variety and makes the game less evocative. Slayers is, when it comes down to it, kind of simplistic in the characters it supports.

Perhaps, but what about people changing source/focus/whatever mid-career?