Multiclassing

fliprushman · Post by **fliprushman** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

I've been spending sometime thinking about the good ole' days of 2nd edition DnD and in particular, the way the game compared to 3rd edition DnD. Both games have there advantages but 3rd is clearly superior to 2nd. The only thing I did notice wrong though with 3rd is that multiclassing is completely useless for a caster so if you wanted to be a Elf Fighter/Mage, you would have to choose between you casting or you ability to fight with no middle grounds for both. So I spent some time looking over the rules and found in the UA variant of Gestalt characters. Yes, it's more powerful but if I could rework it a little, I could get it to function along side the normal characters that don't multiclass. Some things that I have worked with that could be used as a balancing facter.

1. The multiclass characters follow a different track for XP to level. Basically it boils down to Xp to level = Xp to level for none multiclass character + ( 500 x The level gained). ex. To get to 2nd level, the multiclass character would need to gain 1500 and to get to 5th, 15000.

2. Prestige classes can only be taken by non multiclass characters or are not necessary. This rule I'm not really sure if I need or not but something to think about.

3. HD and HP are calculated by HD for class 1 + HD for class 2 / 2.

4. These method would supersede the multiclass rules in the PHB.

I still haven't done the multiclassing for more than 2 classes but I don't think you should be able to multiclass over 3 which will have a different xp chart than the one for 2. I'm still working on it and don't think I'll have this done until I get a group that wants to run 3.5(Which will take some time). So what do you think could be added to improve and what abuses do you forsee?

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:50 pm

Various people on the board have tackled the problem pretty well. To summarize...

1) In Races of War, Frank and K suggest doing away with Multiclassing XP penalties. In Book of Gears, they suggest doing away with XP altogether and just leveling the players up when they've done an adventure or whenever you feel like it.

2) Iaimeki has some interesting thoughts about hybrid PrCs--essentially, if you're playing a Fighter/Wizard, Wizard/Cleric, or a Caster/Rogue PrC, you should get into that PrC at level 3, after a level of each. The reasoning is, if you lose more than a level in either, your class is now inferior to taking the Leadership feat, which gives the same (or more, in some cases) levels in the class, and also gives you a separate set of actions with which to use them.

fliprushman · Post by **fliprushman** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 pm

Well in this idea, this would work with the RAW but do away with the annoying penalties and still Keep XP as a measure of character developement. Also, I'm not a fan of PrCs and kind of looking for a way to limit there use. With what I proposed above, a fighter/wizard wouldn't need to take the Eldritch Knight PrC because he would have a Better BAB and better Spell progression.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:35 am

I saw this one somewhere:

For the cost of one feat, you may have the class abilities (includes BAB and Saves, take highest of each level) of another base class up to (your level - 2), and consider the skills of the class as class skills. You may only take this feat once, you may not take leadership if you do, and you stop gaining it's advantages when you find a PrC to advance both base classes at the same time. You must be at character level 3 to take this feat.

It sounds good until you realize that it is across-the-board worse than Leadership, and avoids the Leadership 2-character bullshit. Also, the fact of the matter is that you can just give a level 10 wizard 8 levels of fighter, and let a level 10 fighter cast the same as a cohort character.

fliprushman · Post by **fliprushman** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:10 pm

Is that in a book or is that user generated? It's an interesting idea anyhow though completely broken.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:26 pm

Hmm...not sure how it's broken compared to Leadership.

You're trading your cohort's extra actions in combat for increased durability (those 2 missing levels can hurt). I suppose the right class combo could lead to a nastily-synergized PC...

I like the idea of spending a feat and gaining the abilities of another class at (level - n).

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:02 pm

Talisman wrote:Hmm...not sure how it's broken compared to Leadership.

Well, yeah, but that's because Leadership itself is overpowered. Seriously, how many feats give you that kind of power?

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Caedrus wrote:
Talisman wrote:Hmm...not sure how it's broken compared to Leadership.
Well, yeah, but that's because Leadership itself is overpowered. Seriously, how many feats give you that kind of power?

Remember, if you play tome, your cohort acts as one of your magic items.

It's not that much of a limiter but it's something.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:27 pm

A_Cynic wrote:
Caedrus wrote:
Talisman wrote:Hmm...not sure how it's broken compared to Leadership.
Well, yeah, but that's because Leadership itself is overpowered. Seriously, how many feats give you that kind of power?
Remember, if you play tome, your cohort acts as one of your magic items.

It's not that much of a limiter but it's something.

Which Tome is that from? I don't remember that bit.

I actually have a similar thing in my own variant on item slots (where instead of having body points that you stick stuff in, you could just plain attune a certain number of things (with a generic pool of points), and that made an easy expansion for things like magical location effects or binded demons or whatever else to just take up attunement slots, and of course allows for things like a guy with all his magic items in rings or whatever).

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:33 pm

He's talking about the bit on Sentient Items in Book of Gears. To summarize:

1) A sentient item has levels in Wizard/Sorceror, and Int, Wis, and Cha scores. It also serves as a cohort.

2) It also takes up an item slot.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:34 pm

Maxus wrote:He's talking about the bit on Sentient Items in Book of Gears. To summarize:

1) A sentient item has levels in Wizard/Sorceror, and Int, Wis, and Cha scores. It also serves as a cohort.

2) It also takes up an item slot.

Ah... I never actually read past Races of War. I should probably check that out sometime

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:37 pm

Caedrus wrote:
Maxus wrote:He's talking about the bit on Sentient Items in Book of Gears. To summarize:

1) A sentient item has levels in Wizard/Sorceror, and Int, Wis, and Cha scores. It also serves as a cohort.

2) It also takes up an item slot.
Ah... I never actually read past Races of War. I should probably check that out sometime

It's in the PDF.

Oh, and I correct myself. They have levels in just Sorceror, and don't need to cast somatic components.

fliprushman · Post by **fliprushman** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:43 pm

Talisman wrote:Hmm...not sure how it's broken compared to Leadership.

You're trading your cohort's extra actions in combat for increased durability (those 2 missing levels can hurt). I suppose the right class combo could lead to a nastily-synergized PC...

I like the idea of spending a feat and gaining the abilities of another class at (level - n).

Ok I'll take back the idea that it's broken. Maybe that's not the word for it. But this feat and Leadership are definately feats that are something that hurts the game. Not that my idea for multiclassing is any better. That's why I would like to know where that feat is so I can look it over. Maybe come up with a better idea than the one I suggested.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:07 pm

Sentient items are a way to get cohorts that doesn't take feats. Leadership feats are not said anywhere in the Book of Gears to take up item slots. Interesting conclusion: one could argue an item should be equal in power to a feat. But I consider that unbased, as I regard using cohorts as benchmarks for feat balance stupid.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:09 am

Didn't say that it was a perfect multi-classing alternative. It works best if you take a weak + a powerful class rather than 2 awesome classes. I mean, Druid-Wizard in any combination is better than a Fighter-Bard. And you have to limit the retarded exploits, like, Ninja-Thief. But then again, a friend of mine totally played a thief with a thief "partner in crime" to flank with... *facepalm*.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:03 am

fliprushman wrote: 1. The multiclass characters follow a different track for XP to level. Basically it boils down to Xp to level = Xp to level for none multiclass character + ( 500 x The level gained). ex. To get to 2nd level, the multiclass character would need to gain 1500 and to get to 5th, 15000.

After thinking about this twice, I'm convinced this change (or rather, revert) might be jarring to later-than-AD&D players.

I've encountered alternate XP progressions in Pokemon, certain MUDs or MUSHes, and of course AD&D but it was always impossible to remember who progresses at what speed down to the minute detail of 100-xp chunks.
The games could only display progressions as "Fast" "Average" and "Slow" to make sense in a way that most players would even care, or you just KILL KILL KILL until that magic noise pops up letting you know that you're done, but either way that element of varied paces interrups expected levelup times.
For instance, in Baldur's Gate your party has levels all over the place. You're not usually paying attention to the XP gain, but that Rogue just rips through levels while your Paladin is struggling 2-3 behind or more.

Sure, there's always math freaks claiming "It's not hard, just add X to Y and multiply by Z then stand on your head and spin three times" but seriously, are you making games and systems for a wide audience or only math majors?

No, rather, I witness far greater success in systems that use universal progressions.
Everyone needs the same XP to get the next level.
It's easier to remember (in PnP) and in computer games the expected encounter or 'kills' amount is predictable.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:47 am

This thread has got me thinking...how would Leadership be balanced? Obviously the imbalance of the classes impacts on this...a cleric having a fighter as a cohort is as unbalanced (in a different way) as a bard having a wizard cohort.

The cohort grants great power in the form of an entire extra class worth of abilities, plus an entire extra set of turns to use them.

Their only mechanical drawback is the two-level (or more) delay in levels; this leaves the cohort more vulnerable to just about everr attack - and the problem only worsens if they get killed and raised.

Maybe a cohort could have HD and saves equal to the level of the PCs they're expected to hang with, thus hopefully keeping them alive better (or even level -1), but BAB, skills and class abilities as a character of...(PCs' level -?) How many levels of difference make up for the extra round of actions, without rendering the cohort a liability instead of an asset?

Now, I like the idea of the feat SunTzu mentioned, where you gain the class abilities of Class B at a level equal to (Class A -?), but what, exactly, is gained? BAB? Base save bonii? Skills?

At the simplest, I'd be inclined to say class features only...of course, that kind of screws anyone who takes this feat for Fighter levels, but that would be a pretty stupid option in the first place (in addition to possibly rupturing the space/time continuum by spending a feat to gain feats).

I'm leaning towards either (1/2 level of Class A), or (Class A -4), the latter with a prereq of 6th level just like Leadership. This may seem like it wouldn't grant any level-appropriate abilities, but keep in mind this is gravy on top of all the class features of whatever Class A is.

I haven't done any math at all here; these are just ideas off the top of my head.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:04 am

Talisman wrote: I'm leaning towards either (1/2 level of Class A), or (Class A -4), the latter with a prereq of 6th level just like Leadership. This may seem like it wouldn't grant any level-appropriate abilities, but keep in mind this is gravy on top of all the class features of whatever Class A is.

I haven't done any math at all here; these are just ideas off the top of my head.

You know, it's discussions like these that remind me of how much I really hate the whole cohort concept in the first place.
It should be left in the realm of roleplay, not defined by class ability or feat.

Level-appropriate or even near-level-appropriate NPCs shouldn't be treated as addendums to PC roles and routines. They're, well, people.

With that said, I'll go hack out the "Entourage" ability in the Sidhe Noble and replace it with something else like a "swarm of sprites" under command or whatever. That's been bugging me for a while....

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:53 pm

Just for the record, the Leadership is (level-2), and can only be taken once.

Spending feats to get feats is a reasonable exploit, being that you only get to take fighter-bonus ([combat]) feats with those fighter levels.

When I saw it, it was just class abilities, but in retrospect it should be hit dice, proficiencies, BAB, saves, and skills (of level-2). For simplification, just take:
max(BAB) Your BAB compared against level-2 of the other
max(saves)
max(proficiencies)
max(class skills)
additional(skill points) Get whichever as the most/level
additional max(hit die) Get whichever as the most/level

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:59 pm

The thing is, the abilities of two different characters don't stack. The abilities of one character can stack, and that is problematic.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:46 am

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:Just for the record, the Leadership is (level-2), and can only be taken once.

I just failed to get a quote on it, but I recall talk that one can take multiple leadership feats in Tome (unless GM-forbidden, but that applies to having a single one as well).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:28 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:The thing is, the abilities of two different characters don't stack. The abilities of one character can stack, and that is problematic.

You know, evocations and curses stack between characters. Some buffs do as well.

In fact, while having two characters next to each other who both have evocations stacks to form an evocation output that is twice as big, having one character with the choice of two similar evocations essentially does not stack at all. So really it depends upon the ability in question whether stapling another set of powers onto your character would be better or worse than throwing out an apprentice with another set of powers.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:10 am

FrankTrollman wrote:So really it depends upon the ability in question whether stapling another set of powers onto your character would be better or worse than throwing out an apprentice with another set of powers.

-Username17

There's also the issue of not wanting to deal with another character and set of actions. But yeah, that makes sense. Casters have apprentices, barbarians get even more badass.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:12 pm

Bigode wrote:
SunTzuWarmaster wrote:Just for the record, the Leadership is (level-2), and can only be taken once.
I just failed to get a quote on it, but I recall talk that one can take multiple leadership feats in Tome (unless GM-forbidden, but that applies to having a single one as well).

Sure it wasn't from the Cohort taking Leadership too?

Justification might be that since a Cohort is always behind in levels and therefore worthless in level-appropriate Tome combat, it's alllriiiiight.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:41 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:So really it depends upon the ability in question whether stapling another set of powers onto your character would be better or worse than throwing out an apprentice with another set of powers.

-Username17
There's also the issue of not wanting to deal with another character and set of actions. But yeah, that makes sense. Casters have apprentices, barbarians get even more badass.

Barbarians often get sidekicks or even replaceable assistants.

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