On Founding a Church

[ubernoob]

On prayers:
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

Things like that belong in basic schooling. Sayings and mantras to focus oneself and find the path to be more than human.

[Bigode]

To create a monolithic education system for the purpose of preventing parents from hiding truth from their kids, yes homeschooling needs to go. If it doesn't the problem parents will all homeschool their kids. Why would I leave a loophole that allows for an opt out?

Fair enough. In fact, if the education's taken over and made good, there's a decent argument that people wouldn't need to be homeschooled. That said, I think Boolean wanted to talk about stuff that might be doable without riots ...

I think we're talking past each other. I'm not saying that supernatural forces are really. I'm saying that people really *do*

-- hear voices in their heads
-- feel "at one" with universe
-- receive sudden flashes of inspiration
-- have dreams which are or appear to eb significant

Yeah, a lot of them are the result of drugs or other abnormal physical states. But look, just because someone hears "the voice of god" is no reason not to be an atheist.

Sure, but I wouldn't look forward to encouraging most of that (no problem with "inspiration", but I wouldn't think of calling a deity in the matter when I had any), and dare say some of it should be a cause of worry (namely, other people in my head).

Creed:
n 1: any system of principles or beliefs [syn: credo]
2: the body of teachings of a religious group that are
generally accepted by that group [syn: religious doctrine,
church doctrine, gospel]

We most certainly shall have a creed.

Good show. That said, I'm afraid you already knew I implied "belief in the beings addressed".

You'll notice, I proposed having two curricula available: one on Christianity, one of the history of world religion. So we're in violent agree.

I live in America, where I think understanding Christianity is a pretty important deal.

I was criticizing the separation for one religion; but the argument of it being the local religion's good - though at that point, you might separate Judaism as well. Though, the trouble I'm seeing in this' that, if you single out the local religions for flaming, you'll have way more problems than if you teach "history of religion" (and make sure to flame everyone).

But more than that, I love Christianity. Really, I do. I mean, Christians can sometimes be douchebags (and sometimes be very nice people).

If it wasn't for the next quote, I'd say there was something really wrong with you, being supposedly Atheist. And well, the non-douchebags are, thanks to secular society, going against the nature of their creed, so that's hardly somethingto thank "Christ" for.

In fact, I have a script lying around where I adapted Christianity into a sci-fi anime. Fun times.

ROFL

God, give us (...)
-- Reinhold Niebuhr
(there's more, but it gets objectionable)

It's objectionable already: look at what I left. Anyway, the rest of it seems hardly new text; AFAIR, that's old stuff. And most definitions of "prayer" say in no unclear terms "attempt to communicate with [presumably considered to actually exist] deities/spirits", which's the problem. Stuff looking like ...

On prayers:
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

Things like that belong in basic schooling. Sayings and mantras to focus oneself and find the path to be more than human.

... this, I have no problem with, and doesn't seem to actually be prayer (do note, the actual thing I was arguing about's the word "prayer" itself).

But hell, what's the problem with being human? I'd have a problem with not being more than the average human, but I'm fairly sure most Denizens left that behind some time ago ...

[Orion]

Yeah, it sounds "same-y" because Niebuhr's Serenity Pryer has been infinitely bowdlerized. He really did write it though.

I don't understand why you're willing to reject a classic piece of inspirational poetry because it has the word "god" in it. That seems a little... petty, honestly.

[Draco_Argentum]

Fair enough. In fact, if the education's taken over and made good, there's a decent argument that people wouldn't need to be homeschooled. That said, I think Boolean wanted to talk about stuff that might be doable without riots ...

Its specifically designed to be done without mentioning religion. I'm not sure about the USA but over here private schools get significant government funding. Also the public schools are underfunded. I'd like to hear someone claim thats a sane policy. Reversing that would shore up the public system and help start the private schools withering.

[erik]

I don't understand why you're willing to reject a classic piece of inspirational poetry because it has the word "god" in it. That seems a little... petty, honestly.

I don't understand why you're trying to found a church to push the nonexistence of god and the supernatural while at the same time push prayers which call for strength from the same.

There are secular humanist churches out there by the way. I knew an atheist PhD student in college who attended one with his wife and kids.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... &page=ashs

I'm sure that isn't all of them, but it is sad that there are so few. I may look into going to the Greenwood, IN one sometime since soon I'll have some spawnlings to raise and it might do them some good. For now I have to go to the Catholic church nearest me to appease my in-law family.

[Orion]

Some points for people to consider:

There are some atheists who find religion and everything associated with it distasteful. Maybe they became atheists because they don't like church, maybe they don't like church because they're atheists. Whatever, the point is that they have no use for religion in any of its aspects.

I get that I really do. I used to be that kind of atheist. I'm not very musical and I thought hymns insufferable treacle. I didn't see the point is creeds and commandments and mantras; they struck me as twee and oversimplified. I didn't want to commit my mornings to something; I found the celebrations endlessly silly and mock-worthy.

There's nothing wrong with being that kind of atheist. Some of my best friends are that way. But if you dislike churches and everything associated with them, *you aren't my target market*. Seriously, go ahead and sleep in Sunday mornings. I completely understand.

On the other hand, the majority of people in the world apparently like churches. Religion wouldn't have held on as well as it has otherwise. They love going every morning to see the same people. They love having speeches to listen to, songs to sing, poems to recite, morality distilled into bite-sized phrases, holidays to honor, and stories to tell. They love having bakesales and charity functions, sure.

But also, I think people like thinking about the supernatural. They like myths and legends and magic and gods. How hard is that for a board dedicated to D&D to understand?

If atheism is ever going to be really popular, we need an atheism that is like religion in every way that isn't morally objectionable or intellectually dishonest. Because religion is a true and true formula guaranteed to sell. Religion works. So Atheism can't present itself as something dry and intellectual or it's going to remain the province of dry intellectuals.

Now, as to the matter of talking about gods specifically, I think it is defensible on no fewer than three independent grounds.

First, as a matter of cultural history. Educated, literate people are going to enjoy a huge variety of literature from a huge range of cultures. It's not all going to be consistent with our values in every respect. But you have to honor the cultural context it was written in. To attempt to erase the religious import and imagery form religious art would be dishonest. To attempt to avoid religious art would be impoverishing. I feel that Niebuhr's works have real value even to a nonbeliever, and I think it would be wrong to attempt to obscure the position of belief that he came from.

Second, as a matter of roleplaying. This is a rather weak defense, because it doesn't establish a reason *to* say "god", only that there's no strong reason *not* to. Seriously, though, I say things *all the time* which are not true. I'm an amateur actor, a D&D player, and a colonial reenactor. In all of those roles, I've asked for help form a god or gods. So I guess I don't really think twice about it any more.

Third, and this is a big one, I don't think there's anythign wrong with believing in the supernatural, as long as you're willing to reconcile your beliefs to the facts.

Example one: Chi. I believe in Chi. I don't believe that Chi allows people to fly, because that's plainly silly and contradicted by the facts. But most beliefs about Chi aren't like that. Here's a more reasonable one: By exhaling when you throw a punch, you can enhance the flow of your chi, allowing you to hit harder. I believe this statement to be true. I also believe that deep breaths increase the flow of oxygen to the muscles, causing.... etc. I don't view these explanations as contradictory, I view them as equivalent.

So I think it's actually completely legitimate for a martial arts instructor to teach "chi." He should make clear that he agrees with the medical authorities, and that scientific texts are trustworthy. But biology is complicated. "Chi," when used honestly, is a way to communicate biological (and in the case of Feng Shui, psychological) truths in an efficient fashion.

It's also a way to communicate biological truths in an awesome fashion. I think this is in fact very important. When you go to study karate, you're stepping outside the normal rules that govern your mundane life. You're signing up to wear funny robes and sit different ways and usually speak a different language; after all that, it'd be a little disappointing if your sensei started talking about red blood cells. Way more awesome for him to be talking Ki.

There's no reason you couldn't learn karate techniques in sweat pants and t-shirts while your instructor talked about oxygen flow. But I think something important would be lost. Karate isn't just a skill [to be hones,t it's not much of a skill at all], it's also art/entertainment; theater. Theater often requires the suspension of disbelief.

Same goes for church. We need to avoid contradicting established scientific facts, but apart from that we can and should go wild. If we want to keep people coming, we need to be entertaining, we need to provoke strong emotional reactions that tie people in. Small groups of people of people talking quietly in library meetings rooms has been tried. It didn't work. We need smoke machines and protechnics and songs and legends...

I'm talking about an Atheist Revival .

[Orion]

So I know I wanted to stay away from religious symbols, but how about a burning tree?

The Fire for industry and invention, the tree for growth, community, and nature. The way the divine fire egulfed the tree without consuming it becomes a metaphor for sustainable, eco-friendly civilization.

Edit: The flaming tree can, obviously, be inside a hexagon