Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Surgo]

That's...not how perfect shielding works.

A perfect shield has no recoil or cool-down time -- that's why it's harder to do than a normal shield. Also, attacks that are coming towards you can certainly be interrupted -- try jabbing.

[JonSetanta]

The recoil is however fast you can lift your thumb or finger from that shield button and jam it back down again, fellow Smasher.
You can't hold it forever, and in that time of not Perfect Blocking attacks will get through.

It's a very player-dependent 'cooldown' time.

[Talisman]

None of which matters for a pen-and-paper RPG mechanic...there's it's as simple as declaring "I activate Armor of the Saints as an immediate action!"

Perhaps I shall start a thread to discuss this in RPGs instead of cluttering up this one. Oops; too late...

[JonSetanta]

None of which matters for a pen-and-paper RPG mechanic...there's it's as simple as declaring "I activate Armor of the Saints as an immediate action!"

Perhaps I shall start a thread to discuss this in RPGs instead of cluttering up this one. Oops; too late...

HAHA yeah, sometime before we embark on the classless quest after Feybook wraps up.

Although, we could begin a discussion right now on specific video game and MMO special abilities would work great in RPGs (or just damage-immune Paladins in specific).
If one were to group up all cool VG superpowers and put them in an RPG at appropriate benchmarks, battles would probably turn out like a Monty Oum fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryH1TB4gEUY

Props to OneWing4ngel for the link. (Tifa pwns)

On Talisman's quote in bold:
Emphasis on this counter-like function of invulnerability, since it allows warriors (paladins only?) to sucker in an attack and then say "No" much like Marth does, rather than run around like you have the Invincibility Star on.
With the Star, much like WoW "bubbling Paladin", enemies just avoid you.
That's wholly against the purpose of a warrior/tanker and more like what an Expert/Thief/Rogue archetype would want since they can't take the hits nor would want to be targeted at all.

[ubernoob]

More lolz:

Total Fun=Fun in combat + fun out of combat

Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default. Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit. It's measured by screen time. You can roleplay with ANYTHING. Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun. Combat is constrained by rules.

Basically, you're associating roleplay with crunch. Stormwind much?

Um, no, that's not Stormwind. Not even close. I'm saying that a class that can't do anything out of combat for the group (because everyone in the group does those things better) doesn't get to do things out of combat, which is not fun.

Example: Somebody has to sneak into a hostile town (maybe it's dark elves and you're human, or whatever) and find out information about where the princess was taken. Now, maybe the Beguiler uses Disguise Self and sneaks in, gets the lay of the land, uses some diplomacy, uses some gather information, interacts with the town, and finds out what's going on. Maybe the Rogue does the same thing except with the Disguise skill. Heck, maybe the Cleric makes good use of Divine Insight. There's a whole lot of potencial things to do in town, from scouting locations to finding out who exactly is around and how tough they are to actually locating the princess to just shopping. The Fighter? He stays home and guards the camp. Not much to RP with back at the camp. Not fun. If he went into town, his inability to deal with social stuff (like, bluff and pretend he's not who he is) means he'd be a liability. He's just not worth bringing.

Basic rule: out of combat, only the person who's best at doing something in the party will do it. Sometimes teamwork is needed, but in skill areas you're either good enough or you're not, generally, and bringing in weaker people is just a liability. Nobody likes to feel like dead weight or a liability. That's not fun.

To be clear: I made the Tier system because of this exact sort of issue. I watched people not having fun because they thought their characters were dead weight, or generally couldn't contribute. And I wanted to make a useful tool for allowing DMs to see that one coming and deal with it in advance. This includes out of combat situations where the melees are often left back home because the skillmonkeys and spellcasters were the only ones who had useful abilities, as well as in combat abilities where the melee specialists were often being overwhelmed by casters who just felt like meleeing today. People like to have a chance to shine. They want to be able to say "I did this! It was awesome!" And that "this" can be in combat or out. But it has to be somewhere, and you want a roughly equal amount of awesome things to happen which each player.

JaornK

[fliprushman]

JaronK is totally made of fail. Numbers and d20 rolls do not give your players the ability to roleplay through a situation. For crying out loud, the rogue can do a disquise check for the fighter which is a hell of a lot easier than trying to get him to do his own. But if the rogue couldn't/wouldn't help, you could just do a take 10 or 20 to get the results you desire. Not all the city guards are going to have sense motive or spot high enough to notice a differnce. Seriously, how long has his group been RPing because mine does a whole heck of a lot better than that.

[ubernoob]

Anybody besides Kaelik want to smite JaronK? I feel we have two bad cops and need a good cop to balance it out so JaronK will stop his drivel.

[JonSetanta]

Anybody besides Kaelik want to smite JaronK? I feel we have two bad cops and need a good cop to balance it out so JaronK will stop his drivel.

I've been Good Cop to him so far. He mostly has fairly declawed arguments and we come to agreement (or I back down because I know the stubbornness won't end, like with Undead using CON scores) but sometimes... sometimes...

[Draco_Argentum]

Whats wrong with the latest quote, uber? Hes right, if your PC gets shit mechanics out of combat then you only do anything out of combat via DM fiat. You can take all the screen time you want yabbering away. If you don't have the face skills you lose and the party rogue is the one who actually convinces people of stuff.

[Username17]

Whats wrong with the latest quote, uber? Hes right, if your PC gets shit mechanics out of combat then you only do anything out of combat via DM fiat. You can take all the screen time you want yabbering away. If you don't have the face skills you lose and the party rogue is the one who actually convinces people of stuff.

He's unconsciously using 4e mechanics though. While it is true that the party identifies an item at the level of the best knowledge check or convinces the duke to send troops at he level of the best diplomancy check, the party sneaks at the level of the worst sneak check.

His flippant example of a character who contributes nothing numerically is fine and all, but he generalizes it to say that if you don't do anything better than every single other character then you contribute nothing. And that's just not true. There are many activities where being narrowly second place is good. Being the second best sneaker and perceiver in the party is actually something to put on your CV.

-Username17

[Ice9]

To be fair, I wouldn't call that particular example ridiculous. If the some party members have good disguise and social skills, or spells to the same effect - and others don't - then guess who're going to be the important ones in infiltrating that city?

If anything, it can be quite hard to justify why the Fighter even goes into the city at all - why would you bring along someone who makes failure more likely by their presence? Sure, a group might decide to do so anyway, but it's not that interesting playing the role of "keep quite and try not to fuck things up", for an extended length of time.


Edit: Ninja'd.
However, while being the second-best sneaker can be useful (backup is good to have), being the 4th or 5th best sneaker is a lot less so. And if "second best" means "still lousy at it", then it doesn't help. Perception has no penalty for failure, so any level of perception skill is a net gain - but the same couldn't be said for everything.

[Psychic Robot]

He's unconsciously using 4e mechanics though. While it is true that the party identifies an item at the level of the best knowledge check or convinces the duke to send troops at he level of the best diplomancy check, the party sneaks at the level of the worst sneak check.

His flippant example of a character who contributes nothing numerically is fine and all, but he generalizes it to say that if you don't do anything better than every single other character then you contribute nothing. And that's just not true. There are many activities where being narrowly second place is good. Being the second best sneaker and perceiver in the party is actually something to put on your CV.

-Username17

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I like the bard.

[Judging__Eagle]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I like the bard.

Straight bard?

Fuck that noise.

Monk 1/Fighter (Rest) for a straight combatant that can Infiltrate and Sense as well as anyone else.

Bard 1/Fighter (Rest) also works; different flavour, more knowledge-based and less fighty-based.


All the physical combat ability of well... a physical combat ability character; lots of identification ability; enough skills to be not only a secondary Sensor and Infiltrator, but able to be a primary one as well.

The funny thing is that with the Frank re-write of the Bard, the fighter that dips into bard gains some useful things; and can remain the flavour of a bard easier (more skills per level).


Being the best mass and single target damage dealer, a very effective defensive character, the best identifier, the best infiltrator and best sensor in the group is more my style.

Then again, I've made a RoW fighter that out damages RoW barbarians and sneak as well as Dungeonomicon Assasins.

On the other hand, that took a while to do, a long while. My RoW Barb was a lot easier to make and could deal more damage, and the Xill Assasin was also a lot easier to build. So, the class is capable of a lot; it just takes work to get there.

And trust me, when the parties two rogue's go on ahead and run into a Fiendish Tyranosaur or a Wartroll; they don't mind that you've been able to sneak along with them at all. Mostly b/c you're wearing something heavy and armoury or are packing a tower sheild; or both.

[ubernoob]

Need I post another link to the tiers thread? The fail just keeps growing. Only took 4 days after posting to bring in Godwin's Law.

[JonSetanta]

Need I post another link to the tiers thread? The fail just keeps growing. Only took 4 days after posting to bring in Godwin's Law.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Once again, I'm shocked such pettyness is going on next door while we discuss rather productive multiclassing alternatives not too far away.

[ubernoob]

Need I post another link to the tiers thread? The fail just keeps growing. Only took 4 days after posting to bring in Godwin's Law.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Once again, I'm shocked such pettyness is going on next door while we discuss rather productive multiclassing alternatives not too far away.

Oh my god, that was a big nuke of fail. I think I got it all though.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... 7#msg69787
If there are any holes in my logic do tell.

[JonSetanta]

Here's a hole in your logic: multiquoting.

It's a wall of text so long I could tear it off and wipe my ass with it, and STILL have enough to blow my nose. Twice.

[ubernoob]

Here's a hole in your logic: multiquoting.

It's a wall of text so long I could tear it off and wipe my ass with it, and STILL have enough to blow my nose. Twice.

Aye. That's why I added the large text at the end. I know DS and Omen will read through all of it simply because I wrote it. JaronK should be forced to read it all once he sees the large text.

[JonSetanta]

Aye. That's why I added the large text at the end. I know DS and Omen will read through all of it simply because I wrote it. JaronK should be forced to read it all once he sees the large text.

BWA AH AHHH! Devious.

I almost tripped over it myself when I came in. One would scarcely assume it betrayed the hidden tiger trap.



I skimmed through and caught the word "Solar" then "Wizard" then "Shapechange" so that's why I commented. Other than that, it's seriously just a wall of text.
It hurts.

[Psychic Robot]

What does "TO" stand for?

[ubernoob]

What does "TO" stand for?

Theoretical Optimiztion. Stuff that will never hit the table, but works in the rules.

[Draco_Argentum]

He's unconsciously using 4e mechanics though. While it is true that the party identifies an item at the level of the best knowledge check or convinces the duke to send troops at he level of the best diplomancy check, the party sneaks at the level of the worst sneak check.

Of course. But look at what uber posted "Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default. Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit. It's measured by screen time. You can roleplay with ANYTHING. Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun. Combat is constrained by rules. "

That is horse shit. If you haven't got the mechanics to back your roleplay up you don't convince the duke. The guy with charm or diplomacy does. Your ability to act out of combat is constrained by rules. If you don't have non-combat abilities you rely on DM fiat to be effective just as surely as a fighter with a DM pity artifact sword.

[ubernoob]

He's unconsciously using 4e mechanics though. While it is true that the party identifies an item at the level of the best knowledge check or convinces the duke to send troops at he level of the best diplomancy check, the party sneaks at the level of the worst sneak check.

Of course. But look at what uber posted "Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default. Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit. It's measured by screen time. You can roleplay with ANYTHING. Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun. Combat is constrained by rules. "

That is horse shit. If you haven't got the mechanics to back your roleplay up you don't convince the duke. The guy with charm or diplomacy does. Your ability to act out of combat is constrained by rules. If you don't have non-combat abilities you rely on DM fiat to be effective just as surely as a fighter with a DM pity artifact sword.

JaronK specifically equated skill checks and spells that replicate skill checks with roleplaying. I was stating that you can roleplay without skill checks. As for convincing the duke, that functions like teleport. If you don't have it you can't do the adventure, but it doesn't do anything except you start or finish a specific quest. It's like a key to a lock. Just because you don't have Key A doesn't mean that there aren't a billion other doors to try and open with the keys you do have. The game will go on if you don't go on that specific plot hook.

[CatharzGodfoot]

As for convincing the duke, that functions like teleport. If you don't have it you can't do the adventure, but it doesn't do anything except you start or finish a specific quest. It's like a key to a lock. Just because you don't have Key A doesn't mean that there aren't a billion other doors to try and open with the keys you do have. The game will go on if you don't go on that specific plot hook.

An adventure that fails because you can't convince one specific noble is a waste of energy. Why would anyone go to the trouble?

The key analogy is good though. If you can't get ahold of the key, you can pick the lock (or hire someone to do it), find a window, find a back door, break the door down, or just walk away (and open one of those many other doors you were talking about).

[ubernoob]

Oh dear god... He's trying to start it up again in another thread. Can someone please just cut of JaronK's internet? He's failing so hard.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... 9#msg70289

Edit: Seems AJ is doing his "What he said!" thing again. Why the fuck can't more places have the caliber of the den?