Making magical bling

[Elennsar]

I think that's fine. Naturally, clerics would naturally be prone to asking their gods and so on, but that's inclination at most...and other things may make them less likely ("I already ask Him for so much...best not to bug Him.")

[Bigode]

How about stopping making martials objectively worse at every possible turn? In fact, how about not having "martial-source" characters? Templar, duskblade, berserker (you know, the actual one who spends a good chunk of the time on all fours and can't be bitten by iron), death knight and warrior therapist are 5 characters sometimes allowed to be as good as everyone else - for example, I don't think there's much to complain about if they just go craft something.

[Talisman]

Hmm. Three possible crafting methods, all of which could be available in a given campaign:

Magical Crafting: To make a flaming sword, you acquire brass from the Efreeti Lord for the hilt, infuse the blade with fireball spells, then summon an ice elemental to temper it.

Deed Empowerment: To make a flaming sword, you must pass through the Caves of Black Lava, bargain with the Salamander Queen and pierce the heart of Bloodflame the Red.

Master Smithing: To make a flaming sword, you fold meteoritic iron for three days and three nights while chanting the Song of Heart's Fire, then quench it in red dragon's blood mixed with the blood of the intended wielder.

Or, to put it another way, spellcaster, warrior, NPC.

I think I like this. Arcane crafting has higher prerequisites (specific spells) and might take longer. Deed empowerment requires a specific adventure. NPCs require special materials (which they're sure as hell not going out to find) and probably a boon or other form of payment.

Single-use items might require spellcasting or a high skill rank in Alchemy or whatever...I'm less worried about cutting mundanes out of the lucrative potion market.

Should deed-basd empowerment require a specific quest? Or should it happen automatically as great deeds are accomplished with the item? Or maybe either, depending on the needs of the campaign.

@RC: I am compelled to remind you that the cutting of Sauron's finger was not Narsil's only claim to fame. Telchar the smith, badass dwarf smith, "wrought it in the deeps of time."

Still, your point is well-taken.

[Elennsar]

I would say it might be possible with multiple quests, but it would dependo n the kind of empowerment.

A sword that will go down in legend as a sword of orc slaying doesn't have much other than "go against orcs and kill a lot of them" to generate that.

But there may be multiple ways to get a flaming sword by great deeds.

Personal, I lean towards specific. But that's part of liking the idea magic items being legends in their own right, not just their wielders.

So I guess my vote (while I'm not against the others) is as follows:

Specific deed.

And/or

Master Smithery.

Magical crafting not available.

Your mileage may vary, but those seem to keep magic items cool in their own right a bit more.

But all would work so long as all are roughly equally doable.

[virgil]

There does remain the potential problem in having readily repeatable crafting prerequisites allowing your players to just stockpile awesome gear. Even if they can't do it multiple times to get a better and better item, you can still end up with every square inch of your body covered in awesome.

So I can see the old Tome rule of a maximum of 8 slots still being needed there, and getting level-appropriate gear would always require a deed that you can't "Take 10" on; making the item you craft the treasure for the adventure you go on.

And what about players making all of their level-appropriate gear in proper amounts, then foisting it all on one player and then killing themselves or something to bring in a balanced party while you have one character that's overpowered.

[Talisman]

So I can see the old Tome rule of a maximum of 8 slots still being needed there, and getting level-appropriate gear would always require a deed that you can't "Take 10" on; making the item you craft the treasure for the adventure you go on.

Agreed 100%. There will be slot limits, and crafting an item =/= taking 10.

There's also the fact that the GM can make the "crafting quest" whatever he decides it should be.

And what about players making all of their level-appropriate gear in proper amounts, then foisting it all on one player and then killing themselves or something to bring in a balanced party while you have one character that's overpowered.

I personally tend to discourage people doing that. I think this is a situation where it's up to the GM to say "cut that crap out, guys."

Also, slots nerf this strategy.

[Ice9]

Possible system I was thinking about, somewhat like slots but a bit more flexible.

System:
Everybody gets a pool of Mojo. The amount doesn't vary by class, it's just based on character level and maybe stats. But there are different ways to spend it.

Raw Mojo:
The easiest way to spend it. You take a feat, and this gets you several uses - for instance, Burning Mojo might let you add fire to your attacks, burn people who touch you, and set people on fire by glaring at them. These abilities are easy to do - free actions, usually, and they don't provoke or anything. However, it's also inefficient as hell - you'll exhaust your Mojo in a few rounds if you use it this way.

Shaped Mojo:
A more efficient method is to shape the Mojo. This stretches it out a lot further, and has more possible uses, but it's also harder - you need a class ability or at least several feats, and most uses are a standard action. Closest analog - spell-like abilities.

Spells:
The most efficient method, but also the hardest. You need an actual class feature for this, and it has all the normal limitations (components, AoOs, and so forth). But it's a lot more cost effective, and it gives you a wider range of effects.

Items:
Items basically provide a channel for using Mojo. Things like magic weapons usually work like Raw Mojo - you pump points in, it gets better, up to its capacity. Wands are Shaped Mojo, and scrolls are Spells. Higher-level items have higher capacities, more abilities, or reduced Mojo cost. So having magic items is an advantage - you get more flexibility - but having a bunch isn't going to turn you into an invincible juggernaught.

[zeruslord]

Mojo sounds like a good idea, but if spells are needed to spend Mojo effectively and Mojo is spent to do cool things, fighters get screwed. Adding in martial techniques or something similar to let fighters spend points on things out of Wushu movies and mythology would keep balance more easily.

[IGTN]

Mojo sounds like a good idea, but if spells are needed to spend Mojo effectively and Mojo is spent to do cool things, fighters get screwed. Adding in martial techniques or something similar to let fighters spend points on things out of Wushu movies and mythology would keep balance more easily.

Yeah, class features to shape Mojo need to be evenly distributed to all of the classes. If your class features cost Mojo to use, and nobody else's do, then one of four things happens:
A) Your class gets a better use of Mojo than everyone else. You need this to keep up with other people's class features that don't cost Mojo. Congratulations, you suck.
B) Your class gets a better use of Mojo than everyone else. Other people's class features don't cost Mojo, but aren't as good. You just broke the game.
C) Your uses of Mojo are merely even with everyone else. Other people's class features do not cost Mojo, and you have to use yours to contribute. You're also not doing anything particularly new with your class features. Congratulations, you suck.
D) Your uses of Mojo are merely even with everyone else. Other people's class features do not cost Mojo, but you're able to be better because you can spend Mojo in new and exciting ways. You just broke the game.

Every usage of Mojo by the same character should be roughly equally efficient; otherwise you have some uses that are no-brainers to use and some that are no-brainers not to use. Maybe buying straight RNG bonuses should be expensive and inefficient, universally, but that should be a universal rule.

Also, spellcasters buffing people, under this system, could probably work well as costing the target's mojo, since they're the one benefiting.

[Talisman]

I think the "mojo" system could only work well if actual spells were removed from it, or were subsumed into the "Shaped Mojo" aspect. Thus, you have:

~Raw Mojo. Everyone can use it, but it's not terribly efficient.

~Shaped Mojo. More efficient and useful, but requires investment in the form of feats, skills, whatever. The key is, anyone who wants to spend the resources can access this level of Mojo. Those who prefer not to can advance other talents - and presumably stay level with the mojo-users.

~Mojo Items. Each "magical item" is a mojo channel, allowing you to spend mojo in one specific way. Ideally, this would grant more options as opposed to more raw power. Optionally a single item might be equal to a "spell" using Shaped Mojo...a raw mojo-user with a Talisman of Flaming Badassery could use his mojo to power the Flaming Badassery charm as though he were a shaped mojo-user. For extra fun, this might cost health, impose fatigue, or require some sort of roll for success.

[Ice9]

Well, the idea is that everybody would use Raw Mojo - non-casters especially. Probably everyone should get a bonus Raw Mojo feat to start with. Using Mojo for spells is stronger than Raw Mojo, but it takes an action, so the Raw Mojo user is getting the Mojo benefits plus whatever else they can already do. So if Spells are are "9" on the scale of power, and non-Mojo techniques are a "6", then Raw Mojo would be a "+3".

Not sure exactly where Shaped Mojo fits in - I'm thinking it's not much less efficient than spells, just less versatile. The kind of thing you might supplement your non-Mojo skills with - like a lightning bolt charm if your ranged abilities were lacking. Also, spellcasters could benefit from the lack of components, picking up a couple Shaped techniques for use when grappled or tied up.

That said, you could probably fold Spells and Shaped Mojo together, if you wanted to.