TNE and Centaurs

[Elennsar]

The point is, centaurs are traditionally (which means if you do it differently, you're not doing what people reocgnize as a centaur) as (in)flexible as a horse.

Since there are absolutely zero winged humanoids in real life, and several that could fold their wings to be nice and conveniently packed away in fantasy, I see no double standard in centaurs being "gyped" and Hawkmen not being "gyped".

[Akula]

There are no centaurs in real life, either. Will you shut up, or at least stop proving me right about your double standard now?

[Bigode]

Pretty much, yeah. If the horse is dependent on civilization, not sentient, and it provides a valuable service already, I feel it should get treated fairly nicely and not killed as soon as it lacks usefulness or when doing so is expedient.

I like how listing "not sentient" seems to imply sentience's a crime.

If I had to choose between killing and eating a domesticated horse or eating the already-dead body of another person, the choice would be easy. I don't see cannibalism as bad if you are just utilizing a pile of meat that would otherwise just rot. It's a bit distasteful (no pun intended), and there might be some disease problems, but it's really just a form of recycling.

Of course the choice should be easy: one involves killing and the other doesn't, and otherwise both boil down to "eating meat". And we really should make the concept of eating your relatives being honoring them popular.

[Elennsar]

Will you accept that because something is unfavorable to one thing that it is not necessarily true that it is unfavorable to something else?

As stated, centaurs are traditionally not given flexibility, and some winged humanoids are able to fold wings.

If that's a "double standard", then you're insisting that two things with nothing in common worth noting be exactly as (un)able to avoid either being unviable.

Apparently, birdmen -are- able to fold their wings based on how wings work, and apparently centaurs are not able to bend as easily as bipeds based on how equine bodies work.

How unfair. Waaaa.

[shau]

And we really should make the concept of eating your relatives being honoring them popular.

Then we would have the thanksgiving problem, except instead of a month of eating nothing but leftover turkey it would be a month of eating nothing but leftover Aunt Ruth.

[PhoneLobster]

Name Here, your link seems a bit broken. By the sound of it though you are talking about some sort of weird negative evidence. "it doesn't take some turns it probably couldn't" isn't nearly as cool as examples of big horses taking turns we were told they couldn't.

But like I keep trying to say. Realism as an argument is dumb. And in this case especially dumb.

We have plenty of examples of real horses getting up to wacky hijinx. Hell somewhere I saw a picture of a horse being ridden inside a gigantic plastic hamster ball thingy. You want sufficient suspension of disbelief, we have it. It's an RPG beyond a few examples and a vague idea of how it could be happens to be more than enough "proof".

Meanwhile the claims of the mobility of giant crabs, hercules and ogres and junk... pure conjecture.

Well... actually large land crabs aren't especially spry...

[Elennsar]

"Awww mom. Carrion for supper again?"

Okay, seriously. Back to centaurs as nonviable PCs whether or not they make viable monsters (defined as things unplayable as PCs).

[Bigode]

Then we would have the thanksgiving problem, except instead of a month of eating nothing but leftover turkey it would be a month of eating nothing but leftover Aunt Ruth.

I'm not sure what the Turkey Day problem is, but at worst, you wouldn't have problems finding people to accept excess meat. Wow, it also might make poor people from other families eat a bit better!

[angelfromanotherpin]

Of course, getting around inside is just one example of horse-body-related disqualifiers. Edging along a narrow ledge, climbing a rope, and hiding behind a door are all standard adventurous activities that centaurs straight-up fail at.

[Bigode]

Of course, getting around inside is just one example of horse-body-related disqualifiers. Edging along a narrow ledge, climbing a rope, and hiding behind a door are all standard adventurous activities that centaurs straight-up fail at.

Hiding behind the door's likely failed at by all large creatures, but the others stay, I guess.

[shau]

Of course, getting around inside is just one example of horse-body-related disqualifiers. Edging along a narrow ledge, climbing a rope, and hiding behind a door are all standard adventurous activities that centaurs straight-up fail at.

Hiding behind the door's likely failed at by all large creatures, but the others stay, I guess.

I am not sure there exists a ledge that is narrow and dangeorus for humans but passable by ogres.

Again, however, I don't see this a being that insurmountable of a problem. The spells levitate and spider climb are second level spells. The DM can just give you a potion of either should it ever come up without hurting the wealth system.

[Akula]

Will you accept that because something is unfavorable to one thing that it is not necessarily true that it is unfavorable to something else?

In general, yes. But in this case: No, because you won't accept that wings are almost as big of an impediment to movement as a horse body. In trying to bring up this abstract argument you are advancing nothing and proving nothing. Please stay on topic.

As stated, centaurs are traditionally not given flexibility, and some winged humanoids are able to fold wings.

Since neither exists in reality, this is just another example of your tendency to shift the goal of the exercise to something that favors your position. Again, if your birdmen can avoid all of the physiological and practical difficulties in existing in a normal human dwelling, then my centaurs can do the same.

If that's a "double standard", then you're insisting that two things with nothing in common worth noting be exactly as (un)able to avoid either being unviable.

Both have the inability to comfortably live in a normal human dwelling in common. But for one this is grounds for removing them from the game, for the other it is glossed over by magical wing folding. That is the very definition of a double standard.

Apparently, birdmen -are- able to fold their wings based on how wings work, and apparently centaurs are not able to bend as easily as bipeds based on how equine bodies work.

No, you idiot. Based on how you envision wings folding, and by the way they wouldn't actually fold the same way unless the creature in question lacked arms which carries a whole new set of problems, they are not a problem. And based on how you envision a centaur's body working, they cannot work. But nothing says centaurs have to have a body that resembles a real world horse in any way but looks. So a centaur body could be flexible, just as wings could fold down to the point where they are not a problem. But the willingness to adopt one and not the other based on realism arguments is dumb because neither really exists. The game designer can say what they do.

How unfair. Waaaa.

You. Are. An. Idiot. You dismiss the points of others out of your own narrowness of view. You don't even take the time or effort to address your opponent's points. It is no wonder that every thread you post in is derailed, because the topic of discussion becomes whatever you see it being if anyone takes the time to address you. Can I please get an ignore button?

[Bigode]

I am not sure there exists a ledge that is narrow and dangeorus for humans but passable by ogres.

Again, however, I don't see this a being that insurmountable of a problem. The spells levitate and spider climb are second level spells. The DM can just give you a potion of either should it ever come up without hurting the wealth system.

Ogres can walk sideways, for starters. Hypothetically one could also walk like a model. And yeah, let's make D&D assumptions, and let's also assume someone's per races getting extra money.

Can I please get an ignore button?

You know what? I'd be actually against it at this point. Everyone has one inside their head. Use.

[Akula]

Those are much better examples of tasks that would trouble a Centaur. But then again, any ledge that is narrow for humans is narrower for anything larger than humans. And Centaurs aren't that much wider than a man. But rope would be a problem for sure. Feather fall might be able to take care of getting down but you would need a climbing Centaur to get back up, and in the interest of being consistent, I will admit that Centaurs don't climb well at all.

[Elennsar]

Since neither exists in reality, this is just another example of your tendency to shift the goal of the exercise to something that favors your position. Again, if your birdmen can avoid all of the physiological and practical difficulties in existing in a normal human dwelling, then my centaurs can do the same.

This has nothing to do with "my" birdmen. Birdmen generally seem to get this. Centaurs don't.

Both have the inability to comfortably live in a normal human dwelling in common. But for one this is grounds for removing them from the game, for the other it is glossed over by magical wing folding. That is the very definition of a double standard.

It doesn't take magic to fold wings in any way whatsoever.

Your point?

No, you idiot. Based on how you envision wings folding, and by the way they wouldn't actually fold the same way unless the creature in question lacked arms which carries a whole new set of problems, they are not a problem. And based on how you envision a centaur's body working, they cannot work. But nothing says centaurs have to have a body that resembles a real world horse in any way but looks. So a centaur body could be flexible, just as wings could fold down to the point where they are not a problem. But the willingness to adopt one and not the other based on realism arguments is dumb because neither really exists. The game designer can say what they do.

Calling me an idiot really doesn't do anything to advance your arguement, you know.

And other than the fact centaurs are refered to as half horse, no, nothing even implies that they'd have issues with a horse's body.

So realistic wings could fold up so they're not an issue, a realistic horse's body wouldn't. A centaur that was able to avoid the inconveniences of a horse's body would be a very different beast than they're usually presented as.

Doesn't mean you couldn't call it a centaur, but I'm not sure I'd recognize it as one anymore than if you had all elves have six fingers I'd recognize them as elven.

You. Are. An. Idiot. You dismiss the points of others out of your own narrowness of view. You don't even take the time or effort to address your opponent's points. It is no wonder that every thread you post in is derailed, because the topic of discussion becomes whatever you see it being if anyone takes the time to address you. Can I please get an ignore button?

I take the time and effort to address people's points, and I do not derail topics simply by pointing out that I see people's points as invalid.

To use your arguement: Somehow, it looks like a horse, but it really has nothing to do with being anything like a horse. Somehow. Okay. But that's not what comes to mind when you say "centaur".

You are welcome to make "centaurs" any damn thing you like, but saying "I want centaurs." is going to bring up "like this?" with examples of how centaurs don't have the ability to bend and move as easily as bipeds (winged or not) in people's heads.

If you really don't want to actually deal with the fact centaurs are more limited because they have traits that are more hindering then wings that could be folded up without having to wave a magic wand, then don't respond. No need for an /ignore button to make up for your inability to deal with disagreement on the practicality of centaurs.

[PhoneLobster]

I am not sure there exists a ledge that is narrow and dangeorus for humans but passable by ogres.

Indeed one of the defining aspects of ogre vs human navigation of terrain is the whole bit where spry and agile humans do things like escape them (or lure them to a deadly fall) along just such ledges.

Like all the damn time.

Same goes for basically any larger than human thing. Or even just large brutes of humans.

If we ban groups of characters from the game because they can't go some places some other characters can we have to ban basically all bar one race, kill all their young and maybe one of the genders and then limit them to a racial uniformity that will make Elennsar shiver with pleasure.

[Elennsar]

In a word, no.

But the realm of things open to things that are 3/4ths horse and the realm of things open to things that are basically BIG humans are much different.

I can fit an ogre nearly anywhere I can fit a bulky human. I'd have trouble fitting a centaur in quite a few more places.

Personally, my only reason for voting no to the inclusion of centaurs at all (as opposed to for PCs, which others have pointed out the impracticalities of) is that I don't see them adding anything to the list of stories we can tell...quanity or quality or both.

So we basically add another race with less personality and fluff and stuff that makes it interesting and cool and more issues that make it less able to do "basically human but not quite".

Bad trade. I'd rather take up the amount of work it would take to write good stats for centaurs (assuming they were monsters and monsters alone) writting up more stuff for horse focused humans.

[virgil]

I still do not see how a set of wings would be on par with a horse body in terms of maneuverability. They bend at the point of connection, so at the absolute worse, it would be like having two people doing a congo line as far as corner maneuvering.

[PhoneLobster]

OK Elennsar you really aren't going to add anything here. Frank is already using your bait and switch debating techniques and doing it with more subtlety so we really don' t need well...

But the realm of things open to things that are 3/4ths horse and the realm of things open to things that are basically BIG humans are much different.

And as long as the realms of things open to "BIG" humans are different and in anyway smaller in number than those open to regular humans then the whole "can't go there, can't adventure" bullshit gets called on them too.

I can fit an ogre nearly anywhere I can fit a bulky human. I'd have trouble fitting a centaur in quite a few more places.

Typically, and we know how you are a fan of that word when used in regards to non-existent imaginary things, Ogres are you know, way bigger than just a "bulky human".

Personally, my only reason for voting no to the inclusion of centaurs at all (as opposed to for PCs, which others have pointed out the impracticalities of) is that I don't see them adding anything to the list of stories we can tell...quanity or quality or both.

Well of course not since they don't perform a narrow retelling of LOTR where it's all about how elf archers are like totally superior and cool and shit. So obviously you aren't interested and want to get back to telling stories about stupid orcs and inferior dwarfs and stuff getting shot full of hot steaming elf arrow.

But inclusion of centaurs brings in the horse fancier crowd among others and that's a big mob.

The mechanical ground broken to include them creates precedents and material to work with for many other large and tauric races (including stuff like Frank's latest Neogi-by-Zerg fantasy)

And all in all is a good thing. Me, I'm not actually a fan of centaurs specifically but they are a popular race and as such a very good example race for non humanoid/large character discussions and rules implementations.

So we basically add another race with less personality and fluff and stuff that makes it interesting and cool and more issues that make it less able to do "basically human but not quite".

The fluff is only an issue if you fail to provide fluff. That's your problem the rules can't and really mostly shouldn't help you there.

The other "issues" are entirely manufactured clap trap. You can tell because it's argued primarily from an ever shifting realism standpoint. Well, some of us can tell.

Bad trade. I'd rather take up the amount of work it would take to write good stats for centaurs (assuming they were monsters and monsters alone) writting up more stuff for horse focused humans.

*forehead slap*

[Elennsar]

Blah blah I want a centaur blah blah blah Elennsar and Frank suck balls blah blah bah.

Fixed.

Seriously, are you unable or just unwilling to accept that there are ways horses and therefore centaurs are hindered that really big people (ogres) or winged people are not?

If centaurs actually added anything to the setting that really demands a new race, I'd be fine with including them. But they don't appear to and they are worse than horse loving nomads for being inseperable from the horse half when that becomes inconvenient or outright can't-adventure-here.

So you gain nothing by writting them up and lose time and energy you could spend writting something else up.

[virgil]

Because we totally can't just have some kind of Frank-friendly tauric creature to fit PL's need for "a very good example race for non humanoid/large character discussions and rules implementations."

[Elennsar]

Apparently not. We have to find some way to make centaurs into that.

Because, you know, ponies are sexy.

[PhoneLobster]

Because we totally can't just have some kind of Frank-friendly tauric creature to fit PL's need for "a very good example race for non humanoid/large character discussions and rules implementations."

Well no, because Frank explicitly states his goal is not to do that.

I imagine it will be damn hard but he seems VERY determined.

[Username17]

I am not sure there exists a ledge that is narrow and dangeorus for humans but passable by ogres.

There are lots. An Ogre is less than twice as tall as a human. In fact, they are about 50% taller than a human. In any particular dimension they are at most twice that of a normal human. A ledge that is very dangerous for a human is any one that approaches the shoulder breadth of the human - anything around half a meter or so. But if the human turns sideways and creeps along that way then their silhouette is fixed by their foot length - generally about 26 cm.

So if the Ogre had feet that were twice as long a human's (not unreasonable as they are often pictured with oversized feet compared to their size), it would be able to pass sideways on a trail that scarcely fit a human walking forwards.

---

And seriously: if you have less problem killing actual sapient people then domestic dumb animals you are fucked up and I have no desire to write anything to cater to you. You are morally offensive to me and are a horrible person. What the fucking hell?

-Username17

[shau]

There are lots. An Ogre is less than twice as tall as a human. In fact, they are about 50% taller than a human. In any particular dimension they are at most twice that of a normal human. A ledge that is very dangerous for a human is any one that approaches the shoulder breadth of the human - anything around half a meter or so. But if the human turns sideways and creeps along that way then their silhouette is fixed by their foot length - generally about 26 cm.

So if the Ogre had feet that were twice as long a human's (not unreasonable as they are often pictured with oversized feet compared to their size), it would be able to pass sideways on a trail that scarcely fit a human walking forwards.

Honestly, I have been working on the assumption that this was a ledge that normal humans had to turn sideways to pass. If the humans are reduced to that, I don't see the ogre making it.

And seriously: if you have less problem killing actual sapient people then domestic dumb animals you are fucked up and I have no desire to write anything to cater to you. You are morally offensive to me and are a horrible person. What the fucking hell?

I thought the discussion was about killing horses for meat versus eating an already deceased human, not that it really matters.