Why are deities so hard to kill with anything but hp damage?

[Lago_AM3P]

Seriously, when trying to design a character to kill a greater deity, I can't find anything that works other than fighting on the outer planes, hp damage, or the blasphemy spell.

Anyone got any suggestions?

[Essence]

CDG

[MrWaeseL]

That's the problem iwht all epic characters. Once you get to a certain level, you can only reasonably kill them with pure physical damage.

[Essence]

If you can nail them with Blasphemy, you can nail them with any one-hit-kill spell that doesn't have a save. Yeah, there aren't many written, but if you're fighting gods, you can't tell me you haven't researched an (Epic) spell or two.

[RandomCasualty]

It's basically a symptom of D&D high level play being unbalanced.

First you've got a spell with a save to negate... well that's all well and good until you realize that saves start growing faster than your DC at epic levels... So then the designers preempt this by creating no save spells (instead of you know... fixing the numerical problem).

Then they get aroudn to gods and say "Well hell no, there's no way that I'm allowing a god to die to some no save instant kill."

So now they give the god an immunity. And right now, there's no trump to immunities. If something is immune to imprisonment or immune to critical hits, right now you're pretty much hosed.

And so you're left with the only possible way of taking creatures down is hit point damage. I really don't mind that paradigm much if it didn't make evokers suck so badly. Personally I like the final fantasy style boss battle, as opposed to one shot kills. Just doesn't seem right to take something out in one shot anyway.

Unfortunately you can still one shot kill gods, because like with save numerics, they haven't quite got damage numerics figured out either.

[User3]

I just realized why blasphemy/holy word/etc. is the only core-rules (other than hp damage) way to kill deities.

It's because of the crack-ass system of immunities. The original idea was to have these spells kill both undead and evil living creatures. Which are unfortunately immune to both mind-altering effects and death effects. That's why this spell has the Sonic and Alignment tags, but neither of the other two tags.

That's pretty messed up.

[Username17]

Yeppers. Undead have a long list of immunities. Gods have an even longer one. There's stuff out there that bypasses immunities by virtue of not having any designators - a good example is the nauseating blast of the Warlock class. Unfortunately, gods have a stupid rule where they "always make saves" - so the only way to kill them is with something that allows no saves and has no designators. That's hard.

It's not impossible. Coup de Grace is no help - because it allows a save, but if you use the Book of Vile Darkness you can execute gods once you get them helpless (BoVD, page 39). That's no problem. You could, for example, crucify Pelor. It's not even hard. It involves making opposed skill checks. All you have to do is blow the crap out of Pelor's Escape Artist with your Profession: Executioner skill.

-Username17

[User3]

In 3.5E, if someone is unconscious, then they automatically count as willing for the purpose of all spell effects.

Viewed in that light, if you were to knock someone unconscious with holy word/blasphemy without killing them, are there any core rules spells or tactics that would help in your keeping them permanently out of the fight?

This is very important for my Initiate of Mystra / Incantatrix / Hathran / Tainted Sorceror / Chained Power Leech build, where my cleric suddenly turns evil and has Mystra chained to a basement near the Outer Planes spiral to keep her from cutting him (yes, him) off from sweet, sweet divine magic.

[Username17]

Mystra is not immune to ability penalties or Trap the Soul. However, you'll be in a hard place to keep that going...

* Feats require you to meet the prereqs in order to use them (unless they are bonus feats) - so you'll lose your Initiate of Mystra bonuses the instant you turn against her.

* While a god cutting you off from the juice won't take away any spells you've already prepared - Mystra can't allow you to prepare a Blasphemy in the first place.

Things in your favor:

* As long as you stay Mind Blanked, Mystra won't know you've changed alignments until you try to prepare spells.

* Mystra is a skank. Seriously, she spreads for anybody dirty old man with a wad of benjamins.

So the way I see it, you could change alignments and Trap Mystra's soul between spell preperation periods - but you have to be fast and you have to do it without any divine spells with the [Evil] descriptor.

Unless, of course, you can get your hands on a staff of Blasphemy or some such, in which case all bets are off.

-Username17

[User3]

As a primer for god-killing, here is text from the SRD:

Immunities: Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.

Transmutation: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.

Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Mind-Affecting Effects: A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Energy Immunity: Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.

Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.

Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.

Also, recall that MMIII changed immunity so that immune creatures can't drop their immunity for any reason.

Since Mystra is either a greater or intermediate(rank 10+), your plans will need to be pretty good.

[Dragon_Child]

* While a god cutting you off from the juice won't take away any spells you've already prepared - Mystra can't allow you to prepare a Blasphemy in the first place.

Not true, actually. Mystra can count as either NG (if you worship the new Mystra) or LN (if you worship the old, which she still allows). So you very well could be a LN or LE follower of Mystra.

[Username17]

Note that Mystra is a goddess of rank 18, but that her specific write-up marks her immunity to imprisonment and banishment specifically, not to all of those things. That's pretty thin ice, however, so it looks like you're going to need to figure out a way to get her to suffer a sufficiently high penalty to a mental stat that she is unable to use her powers or make decisions.

She's got an Int of 45, a Wis of 40, and and Cha of 30 - so it looks like a Charisma Penalty is your best bet. Her stats are on page 51 of Faiths and Pantheons.

-Username17

[Username17]

Not true, actually. Mystra can count as either NG (if you worship the new Mystra) or LN (if you worship the old, which she still allows). So you very well could be a LN or LE follower of Mystra.

Doesn't matter. You can be a LE Cleric of Mystra, but the Cleric alignment thingy flips out if you or your god has an opposite alignment. You can be a TN cleric of Pelor all damn day, you still can't prepare a Blasphemy or Animate Dead.

A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity's

So even though you are allowed to be LE in accord with the "older lawful neutral diety" - you still can't prepare a Blasphemy out of the dealio.

-Username17

[Dragon_Child]

Alignment: Neutral good (you can use iether NG or LN when picking Mystra as a patron)

To me, this at least implies that there is some choice involved.

[User3]

If you can beat a god by 30 on a Bluff check, you can convince them that they are in a bizarro world and the only way to escape is to kill themselves right now.

If they can kill themselves in one round, they will.

[Naar]

Small correction, Frank: You can't be a N cleric of Pelor because Pelor isn't N. Not that it changes your point.

[Essence]

Why does CDG allowing a save matter in the slightest? Gods don't auto-succeed on saves; they just don't fail on a one.