What the hell is TNE?

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What the hell is TNE?

A toolkit for setting construction in a D&D-like ruleset, including Combat Advantage Number
12
39%
A game set in Sumeru using Combat Advantage Number, castes, and a five-color class system
14
45%
A game we have basic mechanics for, but that needs a setting rebuild
4
13%
A game that needs to be started over entirely.
1
3%
A toolkit for setting construction that needs to be restarted
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Total votes: 31

Elennsar
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Post by Elennsar »

It's fairly trivial to keep the ..."economy of actions"... such that Elminister can't save kittens while he's destroying continents. I think a system where getting a large number of people to do good things (like save kittens) while you're destroying continents is ideal.
That just means the PCs are useful mooks. But still mooks. Up until they become continent destroyers.

Personally, I'd rather be someone whose actions actually meaningfully change things at least on a small scale, and who can potentially cause something to happen that would change things on a large scale.
The issue is more that anything he might ask a 5th level character to do, he could do himself in less time than it would take to explain to the 5th level guy want he needs done.
Even if not, nothing the 5th level character can do will meaningfully hinder him (or assist him).

Being a squire to a knight when you're the less-good-but-still-contributing part of the pair is awesome and fun (well, I think it is.)

But "Polish Shield." checks being the most I can do for him?

Fuck. That.

And setting high levels up to be continent shattering beings and low levels being weak and puny means that there is a long period when all my adventures are merely the things the big and potent guys don't have the time or interest in doing, and nothing I do influences their adventures at all.

No thank you.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Elennsar wrote:
It's fairly trivial to keep the ..."economy of actions"... such that Elminister can't save kittens while he's destroying continents. I think a system where getting a large number of people to do good things (like save kittens) while you're destroying continents is ideal.
That just means the PCs are useful mooks. But still mooks. Up until they become continent destroyers.

Personally, I'd rather be someone whose actions actually meaningfully change things at least on a small scale, and who can potentially cause something to happen that would change things on a large scale.
Yeah, and we're getting back to your complaint about WH40k: you never seem to think that anything a character can do is important unless she's shattering the entire universe right now.
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Post by virgil »

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Post by Elennsar »

No, my complaint is that nothing a character is doing is important if you could remove the character and it would alter nothing measurable.

Playing a person who would at most influence a single city in a campaign set in the 1920s is not bad.

Playing someone who could at most influence a single city in something with multiple planets is barely better than by someone who could get a kitten out of a tree on a nautral 20. Both of you are on such a small scale that you might as well not exist for purposes of 99.99~ of what happens.

Now, if I could potentially make a difference in the fate of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade by holding or destroying a particular point or saving someone life or killing someone, that would be pretty cool and awesome and entirely possible.

So, congradulations on missing my complaint entirely and assuming that I want universe shattering power.

I don't want universe shattering power. Nor do I want to be Expendable Minion #34,267,237 who is not even relevant as part of the regiment or even the company that they're in.

So for purposes of TNE, I'd like it if the struggles of the little guys actually influence the outcome of things for the big guys, instead of having armies be irrelevant because we all know that the only really important part is what the level 20s are doing to each other.

Doesn't mean that I have to be able to shatter a continent, but if I am basically making "Polish Shield" checks for those who can, because they do everything that has a measurable impact, then I am not having fun.

If my victories are meaningless because they accomplish nothing that actually contributes, then what is the point?

A game that has "universe shattering power" on one end had better have "people whose actions might be important if they're at the right place and right time" on the other.
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Post by Bigode »

FrankTrollman wrote:Seriously, if power levels ramp up from low level street brawls with goblins up to continent shattering magic duels with gods - then your street brawls at low level are not important. If players will ever get access to Elminster levels of power, then you have the Elminster dilemma: why the fuck isn't Elminster solving your entire quest in six seconds?
FrankTrollman wrote:Gotham is a place where the Penguin and the Joker can run around causing havoc by just having some mooks with pistols. Metropolis has fucking Superman in it. In order to tell a proper Gotham City story, you have to assure us that Superman isn't there. In Single Author Fiction you ca do that by simply having the author never mention Superman. But in a Role Playing Game to actually make Superman not be there, he has to not be there.
Is there any unclefvcking problem with higher-leveled people being in the most important areas and travel times not being ridiculously short?
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Post by Elennsar »

Probably not. At least not in itself.

But it does mean that things are very spread out and the powerful are busy most of the time.

The latter is not a problem, necessarily. The former might be for other reasons.
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Post by Crissa »

You don't want to be a useful mook and you also don't want to be a useless mook.

Could Elennsar actually say what he'd like, instead of complaining?

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Post by Elennsar »

I did state. I wouldn't mind being (when not at high enough level to be his peer or his superior) a squire to a knight so long as my contributions were useful and important.
Being a squire to a knight when you're the less-good-but-still-contributing part of the pair is awesome and fun (well, I think it is.)

But "Polish Shield." checks being the most I can do for him?

Fuck. That.
Sure, he slays the dragon, but I guard his back and it means something to our success that I did so because otherwise we would be screwed.

The mook comment is "yeah, you do useful things", because "Clean shield" is useful.

But if I'm playing a squire, I want to be his subordinate, not his bitch.

And as a mook, I'm still his bitch. I'm still an expendable lackey who he could find a replacement for anywhere.

I don't have skills that make a difference to his our success or failure.

And that is no fun.
Last edited by Elennsar on Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Being a squire is not OK. Making the main character an NPC is never a good idea.
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Post by Elennsar »

Only in the "PCs are the only people who matter" mode.

Insisting that the NPCs who are strong enough to impact the setting mysteriously don't do anything that would matter when the PCs are around strangles suspension of disbelief something awful.

And if NPCs (on the same side as the PCs) are never higher level than the PCs, that's weird.

More strangling of SoD.

So here is my question. I am level X. NPC over there is level Y. If being a squire or otherwise not being as powerful as he is and serving under him is not okay, how is that supposed to work? Do you just eliminate NPCs with any personal power, so the PC/s are Superpeople in Metropolis and everyone else is a mook?
Last edited by Elennsar on Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Being a squire is not OK. Making the main character an NPC is never a good idea.
Being a Squire doesn't mean that you're not the main character. I divert your attention to the book Squire in which the title character is naturally enough, a squire. Being a squire means that you work for someone who is more experienced and powerful than you, but it doesn't mean that you don't have adventures.
Image

The addition of higher power levels confronts The Problem of Evil - which is very roughly that any wrong that happens which is known of and preventable happens by the choice of those who have the power to prevent it. And thus it is that as characters in the setting become sufficiently powerful that righting certain wrongs becomes a choice without meaningful cost, those characters have to be choosing to have those wrongs happen in the first place or they won't happen.

Thus it is that when you have minor ailments in a world that has Elminster, Superman, or Jesus in it, that there is a fundamental cognitive dissonance. If these guys are "good" why do they choose to have bad things happen to good people?

Now you can solve that sort of thing by limiting the power or the reach of the higher end dudes. For example: I have no particular reason to doubt the goodness of Nelson Mandela, and yet clearly AIDS is still a big problem in South Africa. He personally doesn't have the power to stop the spread of diseases, and doesn't have the power to know where those diseases are. Therefore, the heroics of a doctor in Johannesburg can still matter even though Mandela is higher level.

But if you're going to be fighting a goblin invasion, you shouldn't have people who can think away a goblin invasion in your setting. It undermines the drama. If you have to turn to the Symbul and ask her if it's OK for the Orcs to start raiding villages before you can go fight them, that's lame.

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Last edited by Username17 on Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shau »

Elennsar wrote: So here is my question. I am level X. NPC over there is level Y. If being a squire or otherwise not being as powerful as he is and serving under him is not okay, how is that supposed to work? Do you just eliminate NPCs with any personal power, so the PC/s are Superpeople in Metropolis and everyone else is a mook?
Alfred is not an appropriate player character. Not because he is weaker than Batman, but because all he does is assist Batman in his crime fighting work. The Question, while also weaker than Batman, can be a player character because he goes around and fights crime and stuff.
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Post by Elennsar »

No one said anything about playing Alfred. If Alfred is supposed to be a fitting PC than what Alfred does needs to influence the action.

But personally, having that mean "needs to go out and do karate on the crooks" limits the value of even knowing the other stuff.

And in regards to the issue in general...so, all PCs are adventurers. Fine. Why are we assuming almost no (or actually no) NPCs are?

Having the PCs be the only people who fight crime with superpowers or the equivalant is a radically different setting and set up of levels than if the PCs are being compared to other adventuring fit people, which is why I used a squire as an example instead of playing Alfred.

Personally, I hope that TNE handles this in a way that the PCs are not the only superpeople or whatever, because that leads to a setting where you're left with the population at large just watching haplessly while the titans and Gods clash and nothing they say or do matters.

That's not to say it can't work. Just that it isn't the game I want to play or create.
Last edited by Elennsar on Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

Elennsar wrote:So how about you find something legitimate to complain about instead of the fact I think my opinions on something are worth sharing?
You post more than Frank and PhoneLobster. Those guys are opinionated and perfectly willing to have massive arguments yet they still spam less threads with a response to every post and don't have an obsessive urge to post approximately once an hour.

Frank wrote:But if you're going to be fighting a goblin invasion, you shouldn't have people who can think away a goblin invasion in your setting. It undermines the drama. If you have to turn to the Symbul and ask her if it's OK for the Orcs to start raiding villages before you can go fight them, that's lame.
Warhammer fantasy seems to have ork raids whilst also having people who can wreck an ork raid's faces. I'm guessing that this is fine because the people with the power really don't have the ability to be at every ork raid, or even a sizable portion of them, more like Mandela. I'm not familiar with the Symbul, is she some kind of Elminster level badass from FR?
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Post by virgil »

So I guess an ideal setup would be to limit the power or reach of the most powerful characters in the game such that they can't solve problems with the blink of an eye?

I can readily see conflicts that could influence the world, with characters acting on that scale, while keeping the power limited enough to not have to confront the "Problem of Evil" Frank brings up.

Would that still allow for games to stop the local axe-murderer and have epic conflicts in the same setting? Can you properly represent those two extremes under the banner of one system?

EDIT: I think Draco brings up a good point. Do you really think that your opinions are that useful when people start to ignore their merits due to sheer volume? While there isn't a mechanical limit on how many posts can be put up on the forums, there is a limit on how many posts some people read, and you're taking up a large amount of the reader's finite attention (in comparison).
Last edited by virgil on Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

virgileso wrote:So I guess an ideal setup would be to limit the power or reach of the most powerful characters in the game such that they can't solve problems with the blink of an eye?
More specifically, for low level PC actions to be necessary high level actors must be unable to fix all the low level problems for negligible resource cost. Its not a big problem if Sherlock Holmes can solve a robbery, there are more robberies than he has time to solve and thats not even including the murders that his skills would generally be better used on. Your detective can still solve cases that matter.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:So I guess an ideal setup would be to limit the power or reach of the most powerful characters in the game such that they can't solve problems with the blink of an eye?
The problem with high level characters isn't so much that they're powerful, but that they're omnipresent.

The key is to limit mobility of high level characters. So while Elminster can solve any problem, he can't necessarily do so quickly, because he's still only one man and traveling around takes some time. This probably means giving the axe to teleportation abilities.
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Post by Elennsar »

Just dropping rapid transit doesn't eliminate the issue of "How does anyone manage to do anything serious to threaten the Dalelands when Elminster is there (defining "there" as where needed, which unless there's multiple equally viable places is not hard to pick)"

And for that matter, how much do the other defenders matter when he is?

Elminister being able to do more than you can at high levels is one thing, but this should not automatically mean that he can deal with any number of orcs/Zhents/whatever coming at him.
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Post by Orion »

Why *should* anything threaten the DaleLands?

Nothing threatened Lorien.
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Post by baduin »

Why a high-level character cannot stop a goblin invasion on its own? First of all, what kind of goblin invasion? A few thousand strong host in the medieval style could be definitely smashed by a high level character - at least by a druid, who is the best at mass destruction.

Here is a funny - and well written - description of a high level druid destroying an army.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour ... ost1029552

(That story is very good in general - it is the best example of pastiche in Jack Vance's style I came across).

Now let's consider why such things do not happen every day. First of all, I refuse to take Forgotten Realms into account - it was never designed for D&D, and is so full of special rules and exceptions that it is simply a bad example.

In addition I know that in D&D there are infinite loops and other ways for characters to gain unlimited power. But I am assuming well-written rules, in which high level characters are powerful, but finitely powerful.

This is what we (ie Frank) are trying to do here. In that case there are many factors which would stop high-level casters from solving every crisis on their own, despite their power:

1) First of all, they won't be generic do-gooders. We can asssume that do-gooders will generally die before advancing to second level. High level characters are necessarily obsessed with power, and even if good, will be mostly of the smite-them-all type. Depending on the mode of NPC gaining levels, you can also have some ascetic forest-dwelling mystics/sadhus, revival evangelists or savants/researchers. Note that most of them won't have much interest in mass combat, goblin hunts etc.

2) D&D-land, despite some surface similarities, is very different from Middle Ages, and goblins are not knights in shining armor. It is, in the end, a modern game, and necessitates modern - or Dark Age- tactics. A goblin invasion will look mostly like the present "war" in Afghanistan - a swarm of small groups attacking from ambush and in the night, with the leadership sitting in some cave under magical protection from scrying.

3) As I wrote earlier, any D&D style game requires a lot of tiers of power, and they all must be filled. High-level wizards are still near the bottom end - above them are hero-deities, demigods, lesser gods, gods, greater gods, overgods etc. Moreover, most NPC casters are remarkably long-living. Taking into account the deadliness of D&D combat, it means that they spend most of their time hiding and protecting themselves from their equal-level and higher-level opponents. They prefer to act through proxies, henchmen, minions, and random idealists who can be tricked into doing their work for them - through PCs, in other words.

Do you think any high-level caster will risk burning through all his top-level spells to kill some goblins, announcing at the same time his presence to all and sundry and remaining defenceless to the counterattack of the enemy spellcasters?

4) The material world in D&D is a rather dreary and boring Third World hell-hole. Most high-level characters will find an excuse to leave it in one way or another for the planes, where they can find pleasant surroundings, real wealth and worthy opponents - in short, both interesting living and a way to increase their own power. They will tend to return to the material world only in the most dire circumstances.

5) As regard people insulting kings with impunity, one thing is certain - any king who would allow himself to be insulted with impunity, would not remain a king for long. Therefore we can safely assume that any king worthy of that name will be either high-level or will be supported by high-level people in his court.

Moreover, any long-lasting kingdom must be supported by higher tiers of power (divine at least). Any gratuitous insult to a king by high-level people will be countered by his patrons. On the other hand, a serious and justified attack likely will not be so opposed - because such an attack will have a corresponding support on the other side. But no one is going to support PCs when they engage in useless and gratuitous insults.

6). Finally, there is one reasons which will stop higher powers from doing work of PCs for them. It has been written explicitly in the Mystara books about the Immortals - they mostly allow people to manage on their own, because it is the only way for them to gain power and advance to higher levels. If the immortals did all the work for people, there would be no new Immortals.

Incidentally, I would suggest you read Lensman series by "Doc" Smith. Those books are surprising well written, and very intelligent. They are also the only literary example of the heroes growning exponentially in power in a world in which all tiers of power are already filled - which is exactly the situation that D&D PCs find themselves in. There are even over-god characters, Arisians, all-powerful and all-knowing, and their evil counterparts. Both sides, despite their power, allow humans to act for themselves, intervening only inconspicuously from time to time. Good side because they want to allow lower races to develop by themselves, and evil side, because they prefer to remain hidden and not begin the confrontation with the Good side in a compromised position.

The "Queen of the Spiders" series of adventures bears an unmistakable similarity to that series, with a hierarchy of evil races, each of which is manipulated by higher one, and no-one knowing their ultimate masters - hill giants, stone giants, fire giants, drow and unholy demon-gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series
http://www.wheels.org/lens/triplanetary.html

7) Finally, since the higher-level characters are so much more powerful than low-level ones, it would be obviously inefficient for them to do things which can be done by lower level characters. Their own tasks are obviously infinitely more important. And it so happens that D&D adventures are always things which CAN be done by PCs. In fact, mere verisimilitude would require some hidden Good Side HQ which works to ensure that every new promising recruit gets to do only such things which he can do.

The only other possibility for an explanation would be the law of large numbers - there are uncounted other groups working at exactly the same task, and PCs "accidentally" happen to be the one which wins. But this becomes obviously false as soon as we get to higher levels, because it is obvious that PCs are the ONLY group trying to solve crisis after crisis - and they are strangely always succeeding.

And an aside to Elennesar: It seems to me that you dislike the level system as such. This is all right, of course. Such a system is inherently unrealistic; our Earth is certainly not level-based. But there are uncountable other levelless RPG systems. Wouldn't you consider playing eg Runequest?
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Incidentally, I would suggest you read Lensman series by "Doc" Smith. Those books are surprising well written, and very intelligent.
Er... you sure you want to be on record saying that?

I had thought the lensman series was well known for fairly poor archaic writing style clumsy plot and strong cold war "nuke them and let god sort them out" juvenile (somewhat sociopathic) morality.
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Post by baduin »

Very much Cold War. In fact, it should be required reading for any course in the history of Cold War - Smith seems to be the only man in USA with any idea of the modus operandi of the Soviet intelligence. He had also a strong grasp of the strategy of technology.

And he invented War on Drugs - a few decades before Nixon.

In short - do not THINK. Read first. Perhaps you will like it - or not.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/E.E.-Doc-Smith

"As well as influencing the course of popular culture, Smith was also a huge influence on modern warfare. His books were widely read by scientists and engineers from the 1930s until the 1970s. Ideas that arguably entered the military-scientific complex from Smith's work included SDI (Triplanetary), stealth (Gray Lensman) and OODA-loops/C3 based warfare and the AWACS (Gray Lensman). An influence that is inarguable was described in a letter to Doc from John W. Campbell (the editor of Astounding magazine, where much of the Lensman series was originally published). In it, Campbell relayed Admiral Chester Nimitz's acknowledgment that he had used Smith's ideas for displaying the battlespace situation (called the "tank" in the stories) in the design of the United States Navy's ships' Combat Information Centers. "Your entire set-up was taken specifically, directly, and consciously from the Directrix in your story. Here you reached the situation the Navy found itself in — more communication channels than integration techniques to handle them. In your writing you proposed precisely such an integrating technique and proved how advantageous it could be."
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Post by Crissa »

So he has lots of bad ideas that corrupted our world and gave us the fail on drugs and military boondoggle expenses?

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Post by Bigode »

Crissa wrote:So he has lots of bad ideas that corrupted our world and gave us the fail on drugs and military boondoggle expenses?
You say that like it's bad reference for D&D.

baduin: I wouldn't rely on 1, and it might merit mention that if one'd expect a high-level character to fight an army, one should actually expect that army to be led by high-level characters. If goblins didn't make high-level marshals, they'd be extinct.
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Post by Crissa »

Bigode wrote:You say that like it's bad reference for D&D.
You're right, I forgot I wasn't in MPSIMS.

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