What the hell is TNE?

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:38 am

I guess there's also the distinction of invalidating low-level stuff versus just not being affected by it personally. Personally, I wouldn't mind if high-level characters just floated over the pit trap, as long as they can't make a portal that lets everyone ignore it. I mean, I wouldn't expect to be facing the same terrain challenges from low to high level anymore than I'd expect to face the same enemies.

To scale it up, if high-level defense exceeds offense, you can easily have a situation where high-level characters can shrug off a squad, or even a large force of normal soldiers, but can't kill an army, or could only do it over a long period of time if the army obligingly sat still.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:58 am

FrankTrollman wrote:So Castle Xietor should have a moat and possibly some pit traps and such, even though the Lichking Xietor is himself a high level challenge.

In short, I would be much happier if high level characters walking down a corridor stopped everyone and said "That's a pit trap, look out." rather than having high level characters fall onto the punji sticks and just not care about the damage.

I'm cool with that. The question is, why does a lichking need to defend himself from people whose ass he can kick. Its a castle so they can't come at him in a huge mob already. They aren't likely to be much of a combat threat.

Would it be enough if low levels could still disrupt his evil rituals even if they can't kill him? I'm thinking not really but can't come up with any other ideas right now.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:27 am

DA wrote:I'm cool with that. The question is, why does a lichking need to defend himself from people whose ass he can kick.

What if combat advantage numbers were stark enough that normal people with axes were a serious threat if they jumped you while you were asleep?

-Username17

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:38 am

You've discussed this topic of CAN before, months ago. Going in circles.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:16 pm

Accidentally, our 3.0 game works a bit like a mix of Frank's points thanks to a lot of house rules:

- Teleport is restricted to special prestige classes (who basically give up 3+ spell caster levels just for the ability to teleport).
- "general magic items" are scarce, and stat- and ac-boosters are all but inexistent, meaning even high-level characters have ACs between 18 and 30, which makes lower-level NPCs a threat in masses.
- a number of "problem spells" are banned, or otherwise limited - like resurrection/raise dead requiring direct divine intervention.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:55 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
DA wrote:I'm cool with that. The question is, why does a lichking need to defend himself from people whose ass he can kick.
What if combat advantage numbers were stark enough that normal people with axes were a serious threat if they jumped you while you were asleep?

-Username17

So, zero to ten?

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:42 pm

Fuchs wrote:- Teleport is restricted to special prestige classes (who basically give up 3+ spell caster levels just for the ability to teleport).

As long as a party can have teleport, Frank's point's fvcked.

Fuchs wrote:- "general magic items" are scarce, and stat- and ac-boosters are all but inexistent, meaning even high-level characters have ACs between 18 and 30, which makes lower-level NPCs a threat in masses.

In RAW 3.x, not really. Wall of force, improved invisibility and cloudkill, for starters.

Fuchs wrote:- a number of "problem spells" are banned, or otherwise limited - like resurrection/raise dead requiring direct divine intervention.

Of course, you might've ... banned a good part of what spellcasters do.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:00 am

Ayup. Improved Invisibility was among the spells that went away. Between cutting down spellcasting some, and using ToB, the specific campaign is pretty balanced for the specific characters - which do not have teleport.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:13 am

Fuchs wrote:Ayup. Improved Invisibility was among the spells that went away. Between cutting down spellcasting some, and using ToB, the specific campaign is pretty balanced for the specific characters - which do not have teleport.

They could. Besides, who cares about specific characters? It's the setting that matters (for example, why the enemies aren't exploiting teleportation).

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:48 am

FrankTrollman wrote:In short, I would be much happier if high level characters walking down a corridor stopped everyone and said "That's a pit trap, look out." rather than having high level characters fall onto the punji sticks and just not care about the damage.

-Username17

That seems to favor level-based attack rolls and non-scaling damage: higher level adventurers easily succeed against the pit trap's perception attack, but can still be killed if you're strong enough to push them in.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:02 am

FrankTrollman wrote:What if combat advantage numbers were stark enough that normal people with axes were a serious threat if they jumped you while you were asleep?

I thought of that but it presupposes that the lichking actually sleeps. Its a solution but I'm not sure its generalised enough. What if I just get a golem guardian? That'd be a decent level threat that doesn't sleep and squishes normal people. So no need for a moat again because my anti-high level defenses kill the lowbies with ease..

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:44 am

I like the system that I came up with in my Mooks thread.

It's sort of based on what Frank said much earlier about a character's actions giving an enemy a penalty, when a large enough penalty is accrued, then even a more powerful creature can get killed.

It's very crude and overly simplified, but it allows something like 50 CR 1/2 Orcs to be a threat to even a group of 4 lvl 10 PCs, or even 1 lvl 16 PC. Of course, that's in a pitched battle. If the smaller force is using special abilities or long range attacks or hiding or tactics of any kind, then the 50 mooks die, but toe-to-toe, the orcs will beat down even a high level fighter.

Right now, there's no amount of CR 1/2 orcs that can even begin to threaten a lvl 16 anything.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:26 am

That seems to favor level-based attack rolls and non-scaling damage: higher level adventurers easily succeed against the pit trap's perception attack, but can still be killed if you're strong enough to push them in.

If I was doing it as an RTS, I would model it in one of two ways:

Firstly, I would give things static hit points. Indeed, everything would have a health bar that reported in percents because that's intuitively obvious how it works. Then, the bifurcation:

Option One: powerful creatures attack more often and have a higher block percentage.
Option Two: powerful creatures attack bigger and recover faster.

In either case, dropping a bunch of low level opponents all at once or a big instant-kill attack on a high level creature could bring it down, but the high level creature can skirmish practically limitless numbers of mooks.

Unfortunately, while fairly elegant for War Craft purposes, it would be a pain in the ass for table top. Such systems have to be linearized and reduced to small numbers of dice rolls that are easy to comprehend and use before they can get onto table top RPG wish-lists. Any time I'm integrating DPS against a healing curve I just don't want to do it.

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:12 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Unfortunately, while fairly elegant for War Craft purposes, it would be a pain in the ass for table top. Such systems have to be linearized and reduced to small numbers of dice rolls that are easy to comprehend and use before they can get onto table top RPG wish-lists. Any time I'm integrating DPS against a healing curve I just don't want to do it.

Yeah, in fact, really the whole concept of fighting an army just doesn't work out well for tabletop as it is. Not if you want to treat each mook as a separate unit anyway.

While fighting an army is kind of cool, it may be something best left to video games like Dynasty warriors and kept off the tabletop.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:33 pm

Well the is the 7th sea mook fighting where mooks literally are considered elements of a greater whole.

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:01 am

Thread Necromancy:

TNE is Dead.

Long live whatever the fuck is next, because I haven't got a clue what that is.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:12 am

aWoD is what is going on now. TNE is more in the freezer than anything else. No one has said anything about throwing it out. Yet.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:41 pm

My last project was completing my exams. My last project before that was SR Horror (complete). My next project is drinking five liters of alcoholic bevages. The project to b completed after that is aWoD.

Who knows what the project is after that? TNE is possible, so is Broken!, so is Fantastic!, so is Occult Murders. I don't know.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:32 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:My last project was completing my exams. My last project before that was SR Horror (complete). My next project is drinking five liters of alcoholic beverages. The project to b completed after that is aWoD.

Who knows what the project is after that? TNE is possible, so is Broken!, so is Fantastic!, so is Occult Murders. I don't know.

-Username17

Congratulations, Frank. What's Occult Murders?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:52 pm

Occult Murders is a board game where there a finite number of suspects and every day (a variable number of turns), the prime suspect may change. You can collect sections of the statement from various suspects, and the locations mentioned in the story of the current prime suspect are all crime scenes that have different encounters.

Kind of like across between Arkham and Clue.

-Username17