Batman's author favoritism is to blame for fighter suckage.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As you know characters with phlebtonium rock and those without it suck dick.

However, as part of D&D's ongoing denial campaign, a lot of people go to the fallback of 'fighters can be as good as wizards! They just have to work REALLY HARD at it!' But you also know that

I think that it's complete bullshit that Batman is considered even in the same league as Superman and Green Lantern. Characters like him get an insane amount of contrived coincidences to make up for the fact that his base superhero chassis just kind of chews.

Nobody notices in the comics because like I said, Batman gets a heavy dose of character shielding and things fall into place for him.

But when you take the basic character idea of the superhero out of the setting and apply it to a stat-based system there's nothing but suckage.

Fuck you, Batman. I hope you got bed sores from the Bane thing.

[Koumei]

I'm really not a fan of DC comics: in one corner you have Superman, who is amazing and has a grab-bag of powers and can do anything and blah blah blah, wankity wank wank. And because you need Kryptonite to hurt him, everyone carries it around. Seriously, a very very old comic involved a knight of the round table, from another dimension, putting Krypronite into a morningstar, so that when he went and met Superman he'd be able to lay him out flat.

In the other corner, you have Batman, who has no right to be in the same setting and team. Except author power/fanwank keeps him there. I can't tell you how many times I've been told about that story arc where some aliens slap all the heroes around, including Superman, only to say "Bwa, Batman? He's only a man!" and Superman grins at their idiocy, and then they go to surround Batman and he sets them on fire because he knows about their secret weakness.

At one end of the scale they have "So good that we need to pull some really stupid, contrived shit just to make it work" and at the other end it's "So lame that we need to pull some really stupid, contrived shit just to make it work".

Give me the mix-bag of Marvel any day. At least it usually puts people in the right groups (Captain America, Spiderman and Daredevil, with a little confusion regarding the Punisher being let in, as opposed to "The standard X-Men team").

Um, but yeah. Batman gets away with way too much stuff, just because he is cool and therefore HAS to win and be awesome. Because fans would cry otherwise. And there's little that's more pathetic than an overweight neckbeard blubbering on the street into a comic.

And this has led to the belief that fighters should be special-awesome without having any supernatural power in a supernatural world. Alternatively, it has led to "Dude, Batman would be a Wizard in D&D, because a really smart, extra-ordinary (but not supernatural) human could (and would) choose that option. He'd pick all the right spells for all eventualities, too."

And eventually you get the arguments about Batman's alignment, solved only by someone wheeling out the chart that shows how, through all the eras of comics, movies, cartoons and cheezy "Biff! Pow!" live action TV, he has covered all nine (as well as anyone can make sense of any of the alignments - alignment argument guaranteed), and someone else proposes that "Batman" becomes a new alignment.

[shau]

I agree with your overall point, but I think Batman was one of the few guys who actually deserved a spot on the Justice League. Sure, he is too weak to actually go on a mission with Superman, but as an investigator he's awesome.

The Justice League should have two members. Superman, who fights the bad guys, and Batman, whose only job is to point Superman in the right direction. That would actually make sense, although it is a horrible basis for an RPG and probably a comic as well.

[Fuchs]

The old "If you're a superb player, your fighter/rogue will do great - as long as you're playing with wizards/clerics whose players are stupid" excuse.

Even so, batman works in my opinion when confined to Gotham city, dealing with criminals in his league - mostly normal humans too.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Even so, batman works in my opinion when confined to Gotham city, dealing with criminals in his league - mostly normal humans too.

There's a fantastic Superman: The Animated Series ep wherein Batman's gone missing and Superman must impersonate Batman for a time. What's hilarious is that it shows what a bunch of pikers Batman normally has to go up against. If memory serves, there's a 2-minute scene (if that!) of Superman taking down the Ventriloquist and Scarface, and Superman doing everything he can not to bust up while he does it. At the end, he's like, "Oh, Bruce…."

Superman should trounce Batman every damn day. Super speed, as has been pointed out, trumps everything. Unless Batman knows Superman is coming. Then Batman wins.

I thought that was why, iconically, Batman is more akin to a wizard than a fighter: If he can prepare for it, he wins; if he can't, he can still do okay but not as well as if he'd prepared.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I thought that was why, iconically, Batman is more akin to a wizard than a fighter: If he can prepare for it, he wins; if he can't, he can still do okay but not as well as if he'd prepared.

Actually, I think the wizard thing applies more in core. Batman's probably closer to an artificer because of the way he uses technology. Of course, that depends on which version of Batman you're reading. DC seems to vacillate between Batman as street-level vigilante and Batman as gadget-based superhero.

[Roy]

I thought that was why, iconically, Batman is more akin to a wizard than a fighter: If he can prepare for it, he wins; if he can't, he can still do okay but not as well as if he'd prepared.

Actually, I think the wizard thing applies more in core. Batman's probably closer to an artificer because of the way he uses technology. Of course, that depends on which version of Batman you're reading. DC seems to vacillate between Batman as street-level vigilante and Batman as gadget-based superhero.

Artificers fill that niche even more than Wizards. If they're prepared they're even better than Wizards. If not, they are considerably weaker and/or less efficient, but still good enough to work depending on what you want.

[angelfromanotherpin]

There's a fantastic Superman: The Animated Series ep wherein Batman's gone missing and Superman must impersonate Batman for a time. What's hilarious is that it shows what a bunch of pikers Batman normally has to go up against. If memory serves, there's a 2-minute scene (if that!) of Superman taking down the Ventriloquist and Scarface, and Superman doing everything he can not to bust up while he does it. At the end, he's like, "Oh, Bruce…."

Killer Croc is stronger than Batman to the point where Batman has trouble fighting him, but he's not very clever. So Bats figures him out really fast and then the drama is figuring out a way to stop him. On the other hand, Croc would be a complete failure as a Superman villain, since he's not even strong enough to cause enough collateral damage to distract Superman the way, say, Kalibak can.

On the other hand, Ra's al Ghul is totally credible as a Superman villain, just because of the scale his organization operates on. So are some versions of Clayface.

From the other direction, Kalibak is a generally unmanageable enemy for the Batman, while the Parasite basically scales to any opposition.

[Prak]

The old "If you're a superb player, your fighter/rogue will do great - as long as you're playing with wizards/clerics whose players are stupid" excuse.

Even so, batman works in my opinion when confined to Gotham city, dealing with criminals in his league - mostly normal humans too.

funny thing is, Batman has a power, and it's that everyone around him suddenly becomes stupid. witness: any team up between batman and superman.

[ludomastro]

funny thing is, Batman has a power, and it's that everyone around him suddenly becomes stupid. witness: any team up between batman and superman.

How true!

[Judging__Eagle]

So, like a Grimdark "Pariah" gened human.... only it makes creatures stupid, not disconnected from "teh warp."

[bosssmiley]

The Justice League should have two members. Superman, who fights the bad guys, and Batman, whose only job is to point Superman in the right direction.

That'd be Apollo and Midnighter then.

"Ah, Warren Ellis, you crazy Hunter Thompson wannabe you. Is there any sacred cow you won't grind up for hamburger?"

[RandomCasualty2]

Superman should trounce Batman every damn day. Super speed, as has been pointed out, trumps everything. Unless Batman knows Superman is coming. Then Batman wins.

Even then, unless Batman has kryptonite prepared, there's just no way he can stop the super speed, and even then in some Superman sources, like Superman Returns Superman can maintain a burst of strength (and presumably speed) even within proximity of kryptonite before getting weakened.

Super speed is the ultimate plot device power, because Superman really only uses it at random spots when the authors want it, then other times it's like they forget he has it.

[Psychic Robot]

Heat vision.

[Caedrus]

Superman should trounce Batman every damn day. Super speed, as has been pointed out, trumps everything. Unless Batman knows Superman is coming. Then Batman wins.

Even then, unless Batman has kryptonite prepared, there's just no way he can stop the super speed, and even then in some Superman sources, like Superman Returns Superman can maintain a burst of strength (and presumably speed) even within proximity of kryptonite before getting weakened.

Super speed is the ultimate plot device power, because Superman really only uses it at random spots when the authors want it, then other times it's like they forget he has it.

Power of superman varies greatly from writer to writer and source to source. For example, some versions even have supes as having superintelligence. And the better written ones don't forget he has his powers.

[tzor]

I have a couple of different points but I think they all have a common theme.

The Fighter/Wizard problem not because one is a fighter and one is a wizard but because the nature of the game (HEROIC FANTASY) is lost on game designers. Thus they deliberately set up wizards to be flash bang heroic and fighters as realistic.

The same problem is with Batman/Superman. The later is one of the classic examples of power creep in a superhero. If you look at the original Superman he is only a few levels better than Batman at best.

DC has never really been able to define a good balance between a character and their flaws, unlike Marvel which seemed to always present characters with flaws. It may be trite to say that a good superhero story is not against the villain but really against the hero's own flaws but that seems to be a general truism of good storytelling.

In most classic fantasy, on the other hand fighter trumps wizard almost all of the time because the price to pay for magical abilities has to be paid in the end. I'm reminded of one of those crappy Sindbad movies where the wizard (played by Tom Baker) has to use so much blood and life force to power his magic that he practically dies of old age before the end of the movie.

It is intuitively obvious to the casual observer that a fighter can be equal to a wizard if you suspend disbelief equally, if you provide equal abilities and flaws, and if you give each an equal heroic level. The problem is that everyone always wants to eliminate all potential wizard flaws, from concentration to anti-magic while at the same time enforcing all fighter flaws. It's that inequality that is the core of the problem.

[Prak]

Superman should trounce Batman every damn day. Super speed, as has been pointed out, trumps everything. Unless Batman knows Superman is coming. Then Batman wins.

Even then, unless Batman has kryptonite prepared, there's just no way he can stop the super speed, and even then in some Superman sources, like Superman Returns Superman can maintain a burst of strength (and presumably speed) even within proximity of kryptonite before getting weakened.

Super speed is the ultimate plot device power, because Superman really only uses it at random spots when the authors want it, then other times it's like they forget he has it.

Batman keeps kryptonite brass knuckles in his utility belt.

[Cynic]

Batman keeps kryptonite brass knuckles in his utility belt.

Shit, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't something called Kryptonite underwear with all the shit that Kryptonite gets put on.

[the_taken]

Anybody else remember the kryptonite lipstick that gave Superman kryptonite cancer. He goes and sits in a nuclear reactor as his version or radiation therapy.
Later on, a nuke goes off in his face and he becomes dangerously radioactive. He then takes a trip to the sun, which magnetically sucks the radiation particles off/out of him.

[Maxus]

Anybody else remember the kryptonite lipstick that gave Superman kryptonite cancer. He goes and sits in a nuclear reactor as his version or radiation therapy.
Later on, a nuke goes off in his face and he becomes dangerously radioactive. He then takes a trip to the sun, which magnetically sucks the radiation particles off/out of him.

See, that is precisely why there is one Superman story I've ever enjoyed.

"The Death of Superman."

Forget all that "Return" garbage.

I liked the fact that they finally made a creature so strong, so physically tough, that he could make Superman bleed.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I liked the fact that they finally made a creature so strong, so physically tough, that he could make Superman bleed.

What do you mean finally? In the Silver Age it was well-established that anything from Krypton, including cars and pajamas became super-powered when they came to earth. Since half of Krypton survived the planet's death, Supes would occasionally have to take on the Kryptonian equivalent of a tiger or a bear or a pterodactyl, and all of those things were mighty enough to wreck house on him.

But even if you don't count egregiously stupid super-zoo fights, I know for a fact that at minimum Mongul and Lobo have beat Superman to bleeding well before Doomsday ever showed up.

[Maxus]

I liked the fact that they finally made a creature so strong, so physically tough, that he could make Superman bleed.

What do you mean finally? In the Silver Age it was well-established that anything from Krypton, including cars and pajamas became super-powered when they came to earth. Since half of Krypton survived the planet's death, Supes would occasionally have to take on the Kryptonian equivalent of a tiger or a bear or a pterodactyl, and all of those things were mighty enough to wreck house on him.

But even if you don't count egregiously stupid super-zoo fights, I know for a fact that at minimum Mongul and Lobo have beat Superman to bleeding well before Doomsday ever showed up.

Point taken.

Okay, I liked Doomsday because he didn't have any of the "Super Flaming Snot" shit. He was just fast, strong, and tough, with bone spikes being a plus. Oh, and apparently would eventually regenerate.

[Psychic Robot]

I liked the fact that they finally made a creature so strong, so physically tough, that he could make Superman bleed.

They could have made him less masturbatory in the first place.

Also, don't forget that Superman beat up heaven to get Lois back.

[Koumei]

anything from Krypton, including cars and pajamas became super-powered when they came to earth.

In the million-year-old comic I read, his adoptive parents did indeed discover that about his blankets. They attacked one with a pitchfork, shot another with a rifle and tried blowing a third up with dynamite. So when they proved impervious to harm, they made a suit out of them.

Just consider that for a moment. Presumably there was cutting and sewing involved. But that wasn't a problem.

Also, it'd be cool if it ended with Death of Superman. Because "Holy shit, something permanent actually happens!" Really, the lack of any permanent or world-changing things makes it like 4E, every day is the same (wake up, beat villain up, save the world again, go to bed). Superman didn't even change (personality-wise) as a result of dying and coming back to life. Not at all. You could stop reading a month before Death, and start again a month after Resurrection, and wouldn't know anything had happened.

Because basically, nothing really had. Self-contained episodes, like a WB cartoon or a day in the life of 4E.

[angelfromanotherpin]

In the million-year-old comic I read, his adoptive parents did indeed discover that about his blankets. They attacked one with a pitchfork, shot another with a rifle and tried blowing a third up with dynamite. So when they proved impervious to harm, they made a suit out of them.

Just consider that for a moment. Presumably there was cutting and sewing involved. But that wasn't a problem.

By Silver Age continuity, Superbaby cut enough threads with his heat vision that the whole outfit could be unravelled and rewoven. This explanation (as usual) brings its own set of problems with it, but they are less obvious than the ones you raised. The part where super-belt was made of the safety belts from the rocket was a nice touch.

There was an entertaining period when the costume was canonically just Supes' baby footy pajamas which simply stretched to accommodate his now-adult frame.