Sneaky Bastard Sword?

[ZER0]

I've been looking through what's been made of the BoG, and I can't seem to find a completely solid answer, so I'll ask here.

Is it possible to have an item that gives a bonus not related to what the item would normally give? To use the title example, could we have a Bastard Sword basic magic item that gives a bonus to Hide or Move Silently checks rather than to attack and damage?

My thinking on it is yes, though it would not be as cheap/easy to make as a cloak or even black leather armour.

Let me know.

[Calibron]

Yes. Things that would normally have the kind of enchantment on them, "Iconic Items", just give a +2 to caster level for the purposes of crafting them. Now, whether you can enchant a sword to be both a magic weapon and a skill item is another issue, and one I don't have an answer for.

[Cynic]

As a house-rule, I usually ignore the non-slotted limitation for crafting. It's mostly for flavor purposes and I don't really see a reason to pay extra just so that one can have a sneaky bastard sword. It's magic.

[ZER0]

On the idea of having it be both a magic weapon and a skill item...

My thinking is, why not, so long as it's fully paid for? When it comes to the cost of a magic item, the price of the mundane item being used as a basis is negligible.

[Cynic]

On the idea of having it be both a magic weapon and a skill item...

My thinking is, why not, so long as it's fully paid for? When it comes to the cost of a magic item, the price of the mundane item being used as a basis is negligible.

The problem with having be both is that you break the 8-item limit really easily.

One way we did it in our games is either to have one of these double bonus items be your special item or maybe as a minor magic item. The flavor doesn't work for minor magic item but still.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Is there a reason you couldn't have one item take up two slots and count in all ways as two items? There really isn't a lot of difference between someone who has a Ring of Blink and a Ring of the Ram, and another who has a Ring of the Blink Ram.

[Gelare]

Is there a reason you couldn't have one item take up two slots and count in all ways as two items? There really isn't a lot of difference between someone who has a Ring of Blink and a Ring of the Ram, and another who has a Ring of the Blink Ram.

So what counts as one item and what counts as two? Is a Ring of Whatever +5 one item? Does this mean a Ring of Whatever +10 is two items? Why or why not? If a Ring of This and a Ring of That are each one item, is a Ring of This and That two items? What if I pay a lot more for the Ring of This and That, then can it be one item?

I'm not saying it's not doable, because it totally is. But it's not completely simple, either.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Is a Ring of Whatever +5 one item? Does this mean a Ring of Whatever +10 is two items? Why or why not?

When you have a +Whatever item, it provides a bonus appropriate to your level, as laid out in Book of Gears. Those bonuses don't ever stack no matter how many items you put on.

If a Ring of This and a Ring of That are each one item, is a Ring of This and That two items?

Yes. You just glued them together.

What if I pay a lot more for the Ring of This and That, then can it be one item?

No. Gold is free and cannot be used to effectively buy more slots. The only currency you pay for item slots with is item slots, and you have eight like everyone else.

Hey, I just had a Sword in the Stone moment. What if: Excalibur is an item which takes up more than one slot. All the badasses who try to pull it out can't, because they only put down their sword, and can't establish 'true ownership,' because the blade needs more slots than they've got available. Boy Arthur is a squire with no cool gear, so he doesn't have that problem.

[Elennsar]

Its an interesting thought, but raises the question: What keeps Arthur the King from getting more cool gear?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Its an interesting thought, but raises the question: What keeps Arthur the King from getting more cool gear?

The slot system?

If Excalibur is as cool as, say, six magic items, it takes up six slots. He's got two slots left which he fills with Excalibur's scabbard (which is as cool as two magic items), and he's walking around with eight filled slots like everyone else.

[Elennsar]

I know. But let's say he finds a cool set of armor. Is he somehow unable to put it on?

That's my problem with the slot system. I like the idea of Excalibur taking up multiple slots and therefore since the other guys only put down their swords (one slot if that), they couldn't draw it. But it gets a little absurd, too.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I know. But let's say he finds a cool set of armor. Is he somehow unable to put it on?

No, he just can't establish the True Ownership over it required to get its magical effects to activate. Until he frees up a slot to do so, it's just regular armor to him.

[Gelare]

Ah, right, Book of Gears. Never mind that, then.

I know. But let's say he finds a cool set of armor. Is he somehow unable to put it on?

That's my problem with the slot system. I like the idea of Excalibur taking up multiple slots and therefore since the other guys only put down their swords (one slot if that), they couldn't draw it. But it gets a little absurd, too.

Obviously, Arthur could don the physical armor, and it'd protect him like giant slabs of metal do, but it wouldn't give him magic effects. Yet it seems like a shame that having a badass artifact sword makes you unable to wear other magic items. I know it's important for balance, but still, a shame. In fact, I could envision cursed items like that pretty easily that give you crappy bonuses you don't care about and hog all your item slots.

[Cynic]

The BoG artifact method seems much simpler.

Excalibur doesn't need to be two items -- It's just a LA+5 sword.

So if Wort the level 5 squire draws it from teh stone, he isn't using it as a lv5/3 sword. he's using it as a Lv5+(5)/3 sword.

Also, if we are going by BoG, you don't need to put down your sword to pick up another sword. This isn't a slot system like Wow or Final fantasy.

If you want all your magic items to be rings, go for it. I mean you'll have some problem putting on two or three armors on but if you really wanted the bandana of intellect, hairband of wisdom, and Miner's helment of spot, you can do it. They all are hat slots but you can stack them in this case.

So, the knights having to put down their sword to wield excalibur is silly, at least by Book of gears rules.

[ZER0]

I think your problem is that you're pulling Excalibur from the stone, rather than the Pendragon sword.

[Cynic]

I think your problem is that you're pulling Excalibur from the stone, rather than the Pendragon sword. :D

Depending on the version of the story, it is the same sword. I may be wrong with this piece but White's "Once and Future King" makes the same assumption. I was using that as the background (see Wort.)

What you refer to as the Paendragon sword is actually Caliburn. I can't remember the Welsh name of the sword. But it's got innumerable consonants and Voweled-Y's in it, I'm sure. It's WELSH!

[angelfromanotherpin]

What you refer to as the Paendragon sword is actually Caliburn. I can't remember the Welsh name of the sword. But it's got innumerable consonants and Voweled-Y's in it, I'm sure. It's WELSH!

Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword with a different accent. So is Caledbwlch and any number of other regional variants.

Some versions of the story make a distinction between the Sword in the Stone and Excalibur. Some don't. Whatever works.

[Cynic]

What you refer to as the Paendragon sword is actually Caliburn. I can't remember the Welsh name of the sword. But it's got innumerable consonants and Voweled-Y's in it, I'm sure. It's WELSH!

Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword with a different accent. So is Caledbwlch and any number of other regional variants.

Now that is Mallory's fault. Before Le Morte Du Arthur, while there was some doubt about whether the two swords were the same or not, they never existed by both names in the same story.

I wish I had a copy of the grail vulgates that I read in college, it illustrates the difference clearly.

Legend #1: Arthur pulls sword out of stone which is not do-able except by "TEH OEN TRU KING!" and this is usually called Caliburn/Welsh name.

Legend #2: the lady in the lake scenario in which arthur's morality is shown to be true because the shimmering tart throws a sword at him.* This is normally called Excalibur and not Caliburn.

People postulate that both are the same but the same names never appear in the same series or story.

Mallory took both legends and put it in "Morte..." but he was lazy.

He called them both Excalibur.

T.H.White and others who copied Mallory kept this standard. But there is a difference to a degree.

But in the end, it doesn't matter because we all know what we're talking about. Of course, if someoen brought up his wierd dagger or his Spear, then I'd be surprised because I've never seen anyone talk about those weapons.

* Shit, I quote Python. I guess I have to watch out for the Undertaker choke now.

edit: fixing broken tags

[CatharzGodfoot]

At least for items that give bonuses to skills, you really want to use masterwork tools (which give a +2 circumstance bonus to go with the magic competence bonus).

[ZER0]

Are masterwork tools still in, or did BoG obviate them? I'm not sure that issue was covered.

[Cynic]

• Enhancement Bonus to Weapons :: +1/3 per character level.
• Enhancement Bonus to Armor :: +1/3 per character level.
• Enhancement Bonus to Attributes :: +1/3 per character level.
• Resistance Bonus to Saving Throws :: +1/3 per character level.
• Competence Bonus to Skills :: +1 per character level.
• Energy Resistance to any Energy Type :: +1 per character level.
• Deflection Bonus to AC :: 1/4 per character level.
• Enhancement Bonus to Some Other Thing (Natural Armor, DR, SR,
whatever) :: +1/3 per character level.

Skills are magical competence bonuses. it's a little vague on whether the +2 masterwork items would be canceled out as they are circumstance bonuses. I say it's vague because I don't know if that could be construed as a bullshit bonus. I doubt it as for the most part, it's just a small addition and circumstance is one of those bonuses that's existed from day-one.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

You can have swords that do non-iconic things. The Twelve Swords of Power (next campaign) are decent examples of non-standard stuff. For instance, some swords:
Cut through stone (non-standard but kinda crappy... woo!)
Kill dragons (iconic)
Disguise the wearer as a powerful/respected/feared person (non-standard Hat of Disguise-type sword, pretty good).
Cast Mass Charm Person constantly (non-standard and completely awesome).

There is no reason rules-wise why you can't have a weapon that casts Ray of Frost or Charm person on people. I would argue that it is one item, but anything that would clearly be over the 25K limit (secondary effects cost double) would not be readily available.

The whole thing where your sword counts as 6 items is stupid. If I ever play in a campaign where I find a kickass sword worth 6 items and kickass armor worth 3 items, and I can't put them both on I'm going to be very angry. It is one thing to swap out one armor for another, or a ring for an amulet. It is another thing entirely when you start limiting characters to 2-3 items total.

edit: kickass sword worth 6 items

[Judging__Eagle]

The whole thing where your sword counts as 6 items is stupid. If I ever play in a campaign where I find a kickass sword worth items and kickass armor worth 3 items, and I can't put them both on I'm going to be very angry. It is one thing to swap out one armor for another, or a ring for an amulet. It is another thing entirely when you start limiting characters to 2-3 items total.

It's not items that matter. It's the ability that a character has from their items that matters.

If you have 8 abilities, I don't give a shit if it's b/c you Penis Implanted yourself with 8 items, or you donned the Godplate and took up the Sceptre of Command.

If, with those two items you can now fly, teleport, cast mass charm; have level appropriate attack/damage bonuses; level apporpriate AC; level appropriate saves; the ability to True Dominate people that you hit and what fail their will save; and get a level appropriate bonus to Diplomacy (to synergize with Mass Charm); you now have 8 slots filled.

I don't give a shit if you want more items, you can't get more than 8 bonuses and that's just the way it works.

A wizard can't make a Rod of Summon Monster 3 and Bonus to Concentration check; and make it "one" item, b/c it's two abilities. It takes 2 slots.



As for Artifacts. This was covered in BoG.

Artifacts have a minimum level.

"Heartseeker" is a magic longsword that deals 1d3 con damage when it hits. It is a level 9 weapon.

That meanst that it's always a minimum of level 9. It can never be lower than level 9.

This weapon scales and can go up to level "retarded", so it's cool and will be handy in terms of attack and damage bonuses. Even when other characters get mentally controlled sentient flying lightsabres as their "level appropriate" weapon (aka level "retarded"). At that level, your "level appropriate" bonus is in at least the double digits. However, no one actually plays level "retarded" games except for really shitty players that pick up every skill focus feat, b/c they got like... over 100 HD.

Intelligent items are the things that are taken as cohorts with PhB sorcerer levels. I "think" that "personal" range spells can be targeted on the wielder.

So, your sword casts Wraithstrike, on you.

You had to burn a feat to get Leadership though, and your item takes a slot.

On the other hand, it's almost impossible to justify taking such an item by the DM, since you burned a feat and all. An asshole DM would simply take away the intelligent magic item and then make you get it back because they want to shit on you; a dick DM would let you trade out the leadership feat (temporarily) for either a feat that helps find the item, or helps in combat in some manner; probably both.

[Bigode]

If, with those two items you can now fly, teleport, cast mass charm; have level appropriate attack/damage bonuses; level apporpriate AC; level appropriate saves; the ability to True Dominate people that you hit and what fail their will save; and get a level appropriate bonus to Diplomacy (to synergize with Mass Charm); you now have 8 slots filled.

I don't give a shit if you want more items, you can't get more than 8 bonuses and that's just the way it works.

A wizard can't make a Rod of Summon Monster 3 and Bonus to Concentration check; and make it "one" item, b/c it's two abilities. It takes 2 slots.

Wrong. Major items give a bonus and at least one ability - though indeed it's implied somewhat that it's just 1 ability, never more.

I "think" that "personal" range spells can be targeted on the wielder.

Not said, and thus not true as-is, but maybe that'd be a reasonable trade for not being able to do things that creatures not made from equipment can do.

You had to burn a feat to get Leadership though, and your item takes a slot.

While the expression "will (...) be your cohort" is used, at other point it's said to "be like a cohort" (i.e. not actually one), and it's not said how do you get one - I find it worth mentioning because it's definitely not unfeasible to just drop 1 to each PC as treasure (though yes, giving 1 to just 1 PC and not charging a feat looks problematic).

[Judging__Eagle]

Last I checked, minor items can't let you get a spell effect and a numerical effect, and you can't get a Cloak of the Mantaray that also gives scaling boost to saving throws; since it's a cloak of the mantaray and a saves cloak is a saves cloak.

The abilities granted by most items listed in BoG are seperate and also much more minor than most spell effects.

The items that I was talking about are seriously items that do the following:

Godplate

"I cannot hear you over the sound of my own power"

This is an armour with mechanical effects of Sunplate, but provides none of the benefits that having ranks in Sense Motive would allow

Benefits:

1. Armour and Life
You gain a bonus to armour class as if this was a Magic armour. The armour has a built-in level of 15, and while it cannot give an armour bonus value lower than a level 15 bonus, it can scale upwards. You are also under the effect of the Vigour spell and gain fast healing 3.

2. Saves and Sight
You gain a bonus to saving throws as if this was a Magic item. The bonus has a built-in level of 15, and while it cannot give a bonus value that is lower than a level 15 bonus, it can scale upwards. you also gain the Blindsight ability out to 60 feet.

3. Flying
You can cast Fly at will, the manueverability of the fly speed granted by this effect is Perfect. You may have massive translucent and non-physical wings of a colour and style that are then tied to your character when they put on this armour.

4. Teleportation
You can cast Greater Teleport up to once per minute. If you would not end up exactly where you wanted, you do not have to actually make use of teleport. You know if you would be shunted or mis-teleported after the casting, but before the teleporting actually takes effect.

This item requires four items slots for all four benefits to be active. If less than four slots are availible, then the amount of slots less than four are subtracted from this items granted abilities in the following order: Teleportation, Flying, Saves, Armour.

Basically, it's 4 items that are worn as a single suit of armour. So it takes up 4 slots. I don't see how it's that hard to understand. Wearing 8 rings that give 8 abilities and wearing 2 items that give 8 abilities is still 8 abilities.