So I might be getting involved in a local 4e game. It's definitely not my favorite system, but it is what is available. I figure it will be a lot like playing hero quest.
I am thinking about making an orb wizard, but besides for sleep nothing they do really interests me. I can do a little murder pinball, but they DM allows a save. I am kinda worried about going leaning on my daily powers so much. Is there a way to make intimidation work? Having a great white dragon or something submit unconditionally seems fun, but it looks like hostile creatures get a plus 10, which totally fucks the RNG.
Does anyone have some good optimization tricks or know a good board for this? I tried WotC CharOp but I swear that place has gotten dumber. And it still assumes you have every book and dragon magazine and that your game begins at level 30. Is BG any good?
4e optimization...
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Josh_Kablack
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Well nothing you optimize in 4e is going to be all that earth-shaking.
However, 4th ed skills are of no relation to the RNG to begin with, that would require designers who understand addition.
Thus the +10 difficulty isn't a big deal for intimidation. (D20 + 1/2 level +Your Cha, +2 Racial, +3 Skill Focus, +5 Skill Training, +5 Power from warlock's Beguiling Tongue, + [1+ level/5] enhancement vs a DC of 10+ 1/2 their level + their Will Stat + [1+ their level/5] enhancement +10 penalty) comes out to you needing to roll a 5 on the D20 against enemies of your level - and lower than that if your CHA is higher than their Cha or Wis or if you have allies pitch in (See the Paladin utility power One Heart One Mind)
The real drawback is that the combat version is a once-per-encounter language-dependent effect that only works against bloodied enemies (and also prone to stealth nerfing by ignorant DMs).
*****
From what I've seen of 4e,(which is all level 1-10 aside from a couple discussions on boards here) the biggest generally useful builds are:
1. Multihit fighter. You are set up to use Rain of Blows (and other lesser multi-hit powers) as well and as often as possible. You grind enemies like you're still playing 3rd edition, at least until your mojo runs out.
2. Righteous Brand Cleric. You have the highest possible strength. You Righteous Brand the enemy closest to the party's best melee character. (Ideally in flank with Weapon of the Gods active - for a 9 point shift in to hit at level 5 that goes up at higher levels) Also you can heal.
These two builds work really really well together.
3. Tank Paladin. You have the heaviest armor possible. You have a heavy shield. You have the ability to heal yourself and grant saves with a bonus. You sink everything you can into upping your defenses. You're pretty unspectacular aside from the fact that unlike everyone else in 4e, enemies actually can miss you. Since you are neither fragile nor dependent upon other characters for healing you have durability to hold out against level-appropriate challenges for entire fights.
4. "Horse" Archer: You have the fastest movement possible (see Adventurer's Vault mounts) and the longest ranged bow possible (see Distance Greatbow). Once you can attack targets further than 20" away and also move fast enough that they cannot close the gap, you are simply immune to about 85% of the monster manual - so it really doesn't even matter that you are using basic attacks or at-wills - you are dealing small damage while taking zero damage. This is probably done best as a Ranger, but a number of Rogue options exist and I've seen an eladrin wizard with magic missile and a number of teleport options played well with this type of strategy.
The bad news here is that you are playing a totally separate game than the first two builds - so unless your whole party is made up of guerrilla warriors you'll be leaving the others behind to die a lot.
5. Skill Weasel. You have a class that works off the prime stat for a skill which you have a racial bonus for, your race offers a bonus to that stat,
you have Skill Focus with that skill, you collect items and powers that jack that skill even higher. You can actually win at pre-errata skill challenges.
I actually played an Elf Perception Cleric in my first reg 4e game, the outline of the Dragonborn Paldin/Feylock multiclass to do it with Intimidate is above, or you could go with a Half-Elf Diplomancer Paladin or Warlock, Dwarven Endurance Fighter or Drow Stealth Rogue
This is not a complete build, but it's often an easy sideline to tack on to an existing character for fairly minimal resources.
However, 4th ed skills are of no relation to the RNG to begin with, that would require designers who understand addition.
Thus the +10 difficulty isn't a big deal for intimidation. (D20 + 1/2 level +Your Cha, +2 Racial, +3 Skill Focus, +5 Skill Training, +5 Power from warlock's Beguiling Tongue, + [1+ level/5] enhancement vs a DC of 10+ 1/2 their level + their Will Stat + [1+ their level/5] enhancement +10 penalty) comes out to you needing to roll a 5 on the D20 against enemies of your level - and lower than that if your CHA is higher than their Cha or Wis or if you have allies pitch in (See the Paladin utility power One Heart One Mind)
The real drawback is that the combat version is a once-per-encounter language-dependent effect that only works against bloodied enemies (and also prone to stealth nerfing by ignorant DMs).
*****
From what I've seen of 4e,(which is all level 1-10 aside from a couple discussions on boards here) the biggest generally useful builds are:
1. Multihit fighter. You are set up to use Rain of Blows (and other lesser multi-hit powers) as well and as often as possible. You grind enemies like you're still playing 3rd edition, at least until your mojo runs out.
2. Righteous Brand Cleric. You have the highest possible strength. You Righteous Brand the enemy closest to the party's best melee character. (Ideally in flank with Weapon of the Gods active - for a 9 point shift in to hit at level 5 that goes up at higher levels) Also you can heal.
These two builds work really really well together.
3. Tank Paladin. You have the heaviest armor possible. You have a heavy shield. You have the ability to heal yourself and grant saves with a bonus. You sink everything you can into upping your defenses. You're pretty unspectacular aside from the fact that unlike everyone else in 4e, enemies actually can miss you. Since you are neither fragile nor dependent upon other characters for healing you have durability to hold out against level-appropriate challenges for entire fights.
4. "Horse" Archer: You have the fastest movement possible (see Adventurer's Vault mounts) and the longest ranged bow possible (see Distance Greatbow). Once you can attack targets further than 20" away and also move fast enough that they cannot close the gap, you are simply immune to about 85% of the monster manual - so it really doesn't even matter that you are using basic attacks or at-wills - you are dealing small damage while taking zero damage. This is probably done best as a Ranger, but a number of Rogue options exist and I've seen an eladrin wizard with magic missile and a number of teleport options played well with this type of strategy.
The bad news here is that you are playing a totally separate game than the first two builds - so unless your whole party is made up of guerrilla warriors you'll be leaving the others behind to die a lot.
5. Skill Weasel. You have a class that works off the prime stat for a skill which you have a racial bonus for, your race offers a bonus to that stat,
you have Skill Focus with that skill, you collect items and powers that jack that skill even higher. You can actually win at pre-errata skill challenges.
I actually played an Elf Perception Cleric in my first reg 4e game, the outline of the Dragonborn Paldin/Feylock multiclass to do it with Intimidate is above, or you could go with a Half-Elf Diplomancer Paladin or Warlock, Dwarven Endurance Fighter or Drow Stealth Rogue
This is not a complete build, but it's often an easy sideline to tack on to an existing character for fairly minimal resources.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Josh_Kablack
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Cloud of Daggers looks good on paper - but it's not really a big damage engine in actual play before paragon tier unless you have generous stat allocations.
With standard point buy and equipment, many of the weapon based at wills are going to be more damaging for most of the heroic tier - unless you assume crazy things about the enemies' movement - and if you're doing that Thunderwave fares better since we can just assume they stand on the edge of chasms all the time.
The automatic damage is a secondary stat - with no implement/item bonus and you have to move beyond the PHB to increase it with feats (if you even can). Assuming the standard point buy that's all of 3 points for the first 7 levels. If you hit, you get to add 1d6+5+implement then deal 3 more for 1d6+8 +enhancement total. (11.5 avg + enhancement)
For comparison,
the fighter is dealing 1d10+5+enhancement with a basic melee attack (11.5 avg + enhancement) and can add more with Cleave or guaranteed damage with Reaping Blow
and a bow ranger is dealing 2d10+twice enhancement (11.5 + 2N) plus potential hunter's quarry.
and of course the Rogue gets Sly Flourish, which is just a weapon (light blade, crossbow or sling) attack that adds two stats flat out - that will keep pace with cloud of daggers all the way up to 30th.
And any of those can be further increased with weapon feats (weapon focus, back to the wall, etc) more easily than force damage can.
With standard point buy and equipment, many of the weapon based at wills are going to be more damaging for most of the heroic tier - unless you assume crazy things about the enemies' movement - and if you're doing that Thunderwave fares better since we can just assume they stand on the edge of chasms all the time.
The automatic damage is a secondary stat - with no implement/item bonus and you have to move beyond the PHB to increase it with feats (if you even can). Assuming the standard point buy that's all of 3 points for the first 7 levels. If you hit, you get to add 1d6+5+implement then deal 3 more for 1d6+8 +enhancement total. (11.5 avg + enhancement)
For comparison,
the fighter is dealing 1d10+5+enhancement with a basic melee attack (11.5 avg + enhancement) and can add more with Cleave or guaranteed damage with Reaping Blow
and a bow ranger is dealing 2d10+twice enhancement (11.5 + 2N) plus potential hunter's quarry.
and of course the Rogue gets Sly Flourish, which is just a weapon (light blade, crossbow or sling) attack that adds two stats flat out - that will keep pace with cloud of daggers all the way up to 30th.
And any of those can be further increased with weapon feats (weapon focus, back to the wall, etc) more easily than force damage can.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Cloud of Daggers can be quite effective, if you're already an Orbizard; especially the automatic damage, because 4E generally gives you about a 50% chance to hit.
So,
L1: (d6+4)*0.5 + 3 = 6.75
L30: (2d6+14)*0.5 + 7 = 17.5
Compare it to Twin Strike,
L1: (2d10)*0.5 = 5.5
L30: (4d10+12)*0.5 = 17
And importantly, it kills minions automatically, and makes a wall (albeit a small one) that minions can't pass through. That said, the Ranger would still be doing more damage because of Hunter's Quarry, but the Ranger couldn't go Blood Mage and play murder pinball.
So,
L1: (d6+4)*0.5 + 3 = 6.75
L30: (2d6+14)*0.5 + 7 = 17.5
Compare it to Twin Strike,
L1: (2d10)*0.5 = 5.5
L30: (4d10+12)*0.5 = 17
And importantly, it kills minions automatically, and makes a wall (albeit a small one) that minions can't pass through. That said, the Ranger would still be doing more damage because of Hunter's Quarry, but the Ranger couldn't go Blood Mage and play murder pinball.
Last edited by Ice9 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
Yeah, if you're an Orbizard, you're cranking Wisdom to be just about as good as Int, and that's what Cloud of Daggers uses.
Still, you've already noticed a big problem: there isn't much to optimise with. You choose the race that is made for your class, you pump the 1 or 2 important stats, you pick the powers listed for your sub-type of the class, and then... not much else.
Still, you've already noticed a big problem: there isn't much to optimise with. You choose the race that is made for your class, you pump the 1 or 2 important stats, you pick the powers listed for your sub-type of the class, and then... not much else.
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Josh_Kablack
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I'm not saying That Cloud of Daggers is not effective - I'm saying that it is less effective than some other at-wills for most of the heroic tier.
And for the Heroic Tier, Blood Mage is irrelevant to everyone
And for the Heroic Tier, Blood Mage is irrelevant to everyone
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Lago PARANOIA
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There is a wand in the Adventurer's Vault that doubles the damage you deal with Cloud of Daggers.
Also, another silly-yet-effective build is to make a battlerager fighter. They gain their constitution modifier in temporary hit points every time they're hit with a melee or close range attack--dwarves can have the Dwarven Stoneblood feat to add 50% more on top of that and anyone can pick up the Improved Battlerage feat to gain an extra temporary hit point per tier. Furthermore, being a battlerager fighter means that temporary hit points you gain from powers with the invigorating keyword stack with other temporary hit points.
At heroic tier, dwarven battlerager fighters are the king of tanking. They pop a Boundless Endurance and there's no fair fight they can't come out on top of.
They, unfortunately, lose a good amount of steam in paragon and epic tier due to the fact that they tend to have the lowest attack and defense bonuses of all of the other fighters--the overlapping NADs of Strength and Constitution really, really hurts them in the long run.
Mind, they don't become useless or even mediocre at any point in the game. They just lose their title of MVP and gets kicked down to 1st-rate defender.
Alternatively, you can be a Tempest fighter. They have access to the Dual Strike power, which is like the Ranger's Twin Strike power only they can't spread out their attacks nor use it with ranged weapons.
They do a lot of damage in heroic tier, even more than rangers. They also age better than their battlerager buddies, too. In paragon and heroic tier, a maximum-cheesed tempest fighter does a tiny bit less damage than a maximum-cheesed TWF ranger, which is just astounding. At level 16, when they have the unholy trinity of Reckless Attacker, Marked Scourge, Dirty Fighting/Lawbreaker's Doom, and Quicksilver Stance they throw out at least three attacks per round with a +30 damage bonus on each.
If you want simple cheese and are starting in paragon tier, be a Battle Captain. Your function in life is to make every fight from now on much easier than it should be due to your class features and array of powers that add respectable-to-huge damage bonuses.
If you want cheese that will make your DM cry, be a Wizard of the Spiral Tower and pick up Orb mastery (through starting out with or Second Implement), Spell Focus, and a cunning longsword. Be sure to also grab an Orb of Fickle Fate. As soon as you hit level 11, you're practically stun-locking people; non-solo enemies have a best case 30% chance of saving and that's without any expenditure of resources. By the end of your career, you're throwing out spells that any non-solo enemy can only get out of 20% of the time and for people you especially hate they have a 0% chance.
If for some reason you feel a need to do damage on top of that, multiclass ranger and take the Expert Power feat, then load up on Spitting Cobra Stance. You get to throw out a magic missile as an immediate action every time an enemy comes loser to you. Sweet cuppin' cakes.
Also, another silly-yet-effective build is to make a battlerager fighter. They gain their constitution modifier in temporary hit points every time they're hit with a melee or close range attack--dwarves can have the Dwarven Stoneblood feat to add 50% more on top of that and anyone can pick up the Improved Battlerage feat to gain an extra temporary hit point per tier. Furthermore, being a battlerager fighter means that temporary hit points you gain from powers with the invigorating keyword stack with other temporary hit points.
At heroic tier, dwarven battlerager fighters are the king of tanking. They pop a Boundless Endurance and there's no fair fight they can't come out on top of.
They, unfortunately, lose a good amount of steam in paragon and epic tier due to the fact that they tend to have the lowest attack and defense bonuses of all of the other fighters--the overlapping NADs of Strength and Constitution really, really hurts them in the long run.
Mind, they don't become useless or even mediocre at any point in the game. They just lose their title of MVP and gets kicked down to 1st-rate defender.
Alternatively, you can be a Tempest fighter. They have access to the Dual Strike power, which is like the Ranger's Twin Strike power only they can't spread out their attacks nor use it with ranged weapons.
They do a lot of damage in heroic tier, even more than rangers. They also age better than their battlerager buddies, too. In paragon and heroic tier, a maximum-cheesed tempest fighter does a tiny bit less damage than a maximum-cheesed TWF ranger, which is just astounding. At level 16, when they have the unholy trinity of Reckless Attacker, Marked Scourge, Dirty Fighting/Lawbreaker's Doom, and Quicksilver Stance they throw out at least three attacks per round with a +30 damage bonus on each.
If you want simple cheese and are starting in paragon tier, be a Battle Captain. Your function in life is to make every fight from now on much easier than it should be due to your class features and array of powers that add respectable-to-huge damage bonuses.
If you want cheese that will make your DM cry, be a Wizard of the Spiral Tower and pick up Orb mastery (through starting out with or Second Implement), Spell Focus, and a cunning longsword. Be sure to also grab an Orb of Fickle Fate. As soon as you hit level 11, you're practically stun-locking people; non-solo enemies have a best case 30% chance of saving and that's without any expenditure of resources. By the end of your career, you're throwing out spells that any non-solo enemy can only get out of 20% of the time and for people you especially hate they have a 0% chance.
If for some reason you feel a need to do damage on top of that, multiclass ranger and take the Expert Power feat, then load up on Spitting Cobra Stance. You get to throw out a magic missile as an immediate action every time an enemy comes loser to you. Sweet cuppin' cakes.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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If you're just doing heroic tier and want to do a lot of attacks, just stick with ranger.shau wrote:At this point I am looking at the fighter. I am probably starting at level 1-3, and the ability to make four attacks every encounter is just so crazy by 4e standards that I am having a hard time considering anything else.
You can multiclass fighter, including a feat in Martial Power that once-per-encounter lets you take a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt against any enemy that's adjacent to you and shifts or attacks someone other than you... and you can do this without marking, which equates to an extra attack every combat.
You can load up on ranger encounter powers that let you take an additional attack as a minor action. That's right, a minor action. You can also get Rain of Blows.
So by level 7, you can do a damage spike of up to 9 attacks in one round (assuming that you throw out both minor action attacks, Rain of Blows, activate your fighter multiclass power, and use an action point for Twin Strike) or you can spread your mojo out and have four rounds of three attacks each.
Why fighter? Tempest fighters have a better chassis than rangers and more importantly have their multiclassing options open and available.
Right now, rangers pretty much have to multiclass fighter. Not that it's a bad way to be railroaded--it's like someone holding a gun to your head and saying that you have to take a million dollars as a legal, tax-free gifty without any expectations for repayment or favors or social/business obligations.
But they're still forced to do it. Rangers have to multiclass fighter to get the two best damage-spike paragon paths in the game, the Son of Mercy and Pitfighter. They also need to multiclass fighter to get the excellent Rain of Blows utility power, the godly Rain of Steel/Quicksilver Stance/Unyielding Avalanche/Reaper's Stance daily power, and the totally excellent Pass Forward power.
Fighters right now gain the most benefit from multiclassing ranger due to their powers, but they haven't hit the same wall as rangers yet. As new classes continue to be released, fighters will be able to better plunder their powers and features better than rangers. As things are looking right now, fighters stand to gain a lot more from, say, the barbarian/invoker/warden.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Alternatively, if you're just doing heroic tier you can split the difference.
Be a battlerager fighter that invests in Dual Strike. You have two ways of doing this character:
Try to benefit from the damage bonus by going chainmail and double-axe. To me, this seems like a waste. You're losing accuracy and AC for a minor amount of damage.
Me, I would just say 'nuts' to the damage bonus and go for platemail.
So here's what our character looks like at level 8.
Orc Battlerager Fighter/Ranger
STR: 20 CON: 20 WIS: 13 DEX: 11 INT: 10 CHA: 8
AC/Fort/Will/Reflex: 25/22/16/15
HP: 77
Attack Bonus: +14
Melee Basic Attack Damage: 1d10+9 (1d10+13 with Bloodclaw) AVG: 14.5 or 18.5.
Dual Strike Damage: 2d10+8, 2d10+16 with Bloodclaw. AVG: 19 or 25 with bloodclaw.
Equipment: Two +2 Bloodclaw Bastard Swords, one +2 Layered Plate Armor, +1 Cloak of Distortion, L6 Iron Armbands of Power
Feats:
1: Two-Blade Warrior
2: Weapon Proficiency: Triple-Headed Flail
4: Novice Power
6: Improved Battlerage
8: Plate Armor Proficiency
At-Will: Invigorating Strike, Dual Strike
Encounter: Orc Racial Ability (Racial), Off-Hand Strike (1), Rain of Blows (3), Parry and Riposte (3)
Daily: Comeback Strike (1), Rain of Steel (5)
Utility: Boundless Endurance (2), Pass Forward (2)
General Tactics: This character is built for taking out an enemy as fast as possible. With the ability to pop as many as 8 attacks in one round when it's crunch time there's not much that can stand up to him.
And he's no slouch in the durability department, too. This character gains 6 temporary hit points whenever he's struck by a melee or close attack... providing him with a very nice damage cushion. If it's really crunch time, he can also pop a Boundless Endurance and gain another 7 extra hp per round when he's bloodied. With this and an AC of 25 he's extraordinarily hard to kill, too. If he REALLY needs to he can pop a Comeback Strike and the Orc racial power and get a healing surge back. Short of dragons (pretty much the only solo encounters in heroic tier), there's no enemy that he can't beat down by himself.
His biggest weaknesses right now are his atrocious will and reflex defense. Thankfully, since this is just heroic tier there aren't a lot of monsters that target these two defenses. Further, the WIS-based tempest fighter hasn't gotten access to their expansion options that will let them pump up their damage so the Battlerager fighter will remain in sight of the tempest for damage in return for a whole lot more durability.
Be a battlerager fighter that invests in Dual Strike. You have two ways of doing this character:
Try to benefit from the damage bonus by going chainmail and double-axe. To me, this seems like a waste. You're losing accuracy and AC for a minor amount of damage.
Me, I would just say 'nuts' to the damage bonus and go for platemail.
So here's what our character looks like at level 8.
Orc Battlerager Fighter/Ranger
STR: 20 CON: 20 WIS: 13 DEX: 11 INT: 10 CHA: 8
AC/Fort/Will/Reflex: 25/22/16/15
HP: 77
Attack Bonus: +14
Melee Basic Attack Damage: 1d10+9 (1d10+13 with Bloodclaw) AVG: 14.5 or 18.5.
Dual Strike Damage: 2d10+8, 2d10+16 with Bloodclaw. AVG: 19 or 25 with bloodclaw.
Equipment: Two +2 Bloodclaw Bastard Swords, one +2 Layered Plate Armor, +1 Cloak of Distortion, L6 Iron Armbands of Power
Feats:
1: Two-Blade Warrior
2: Weapon Proficiency: Triple-Headed Flail
4: Novice Power
6: Improved Battlerage
8: Plate Armor Proficiency
At-Will: Invigorating Strike, Dual Strike
Encounter: Orc Racial Ability (Racial), Off-Hand Strike (1), Rain of Blows (3), Parry and Riposte (3)
Daily: Comeback Strike (1), Rain of Steel (5)
Utility: Boundless Endurance (2), Pass Forward (2)
General Tactics: This character is built for taking out an enemy as fast as possible. With the ability to pop as many as 8 attacks in one round when it's crunch time there's not much that can stand up to him.
And he's no slouch in the durability department, too. This character gains 6 temporary hit points whenever he's struck by a melee or close attack... providing him with a very nice damage cushion. If it's really crunch time, he can also pop a Boundless Endurance and gain another 7 extra hp per round when he's bloodied. With this and an AC of 25 he's extraordinarily hard to kill, too. If he REALLY needs to he can pop a Comeback Strike and the Orc racial power and get a healing surge back. Short of dragons (pretty much the only solo encounters in heroic tier), there's no enemy that he can't beat down by himself.
His biggest weaknesses right now are his atrocious will and reflex defense. Thankfully, since this is just heroic tier there aren't a lot of monsters that target these two defenses. Further, the WIS-based tempest fighter hasn't gotten access to their expansion options that will let them pump up their damage so the Battlerager fighter will remain in sight of the tempest for damage in return for a whole lot more durability.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Alternatively, if you don't want to blow the cash required to keep a second weapon up to snuff then you can just invest in an Executioner's Axe and ditch Dual Strike for Brash Strike.
Your damage than becomes, with bloodclaw, Brutal 2 1d12+20 damage, average 27.5 damage. You save a helluva lot on hitpoints too, as opposed to dual strike. If you don't mind dropping 2 points of AC you can grab chainmail armor instead and have that be 29.5 damage. Alternatively you can just go with a regular Waraxe and go with a heavy shield. There, now your AC is 27 and you 'only' do 24.5 damage on a hit with Brash Strike. Or forgo Brash Strike entirely and just grab something else. That'll drop your damage to 19.5 damage with bloodclaw weaponry in exchange for having monsters only hit your AC on a 15 to 17.
Only problem, if you do the Brash Strike thing you grant combat advantage to enemies and you don't have an answer for that until you get to paragon tier. But for this kind of damage and durability you can't really be beat.
Fuck paladins and swordmages. Battlerager fighters are the real deal, baby.
Your damage than becomes, with bloodclaw, Brutal 2 1d12+20 damage, average 27.5 damage. You save a helluva lot on hitpoints too, as opposed to dual strike. If you don't mind dropping 2 points of AC you can grab chainmail armor instead and have that be 29.5 damage. Alternatively you can just go with a regular Waraxe and go with a heavy shield. There, now your AC is 27 and you 'only' do 24.5 damage on a hit with Brash Strike. Or forgo Brash Strike entirely and just grab something else. That'll drop your damage to 19.5 damage with bloodclaw weaponry in exchange for having monsters only hit your AC on a 15 to 17.
Only problem, if you do the Brash Strike thing you grant combat advantage to enemies and you don't have an answer for that until you get to paragon tier. But for this kind of damage and durability you can't really be beat.
Fuck paladins and swordmages. Battlerager fighters are the real deal, baby.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeah kiting tends to be a strategy that's good on paper, but kinda sucks in practice, because you're pretty much not going to get a party that's fully built around it and kiting means just leaving your friends to die. As an archer ranger, you're seriously not even going to get hit much in the first place, so having added defense by kiting doesn't even help you.Josh_Kablack wrote: 4. "Horse" Archer: You have the fastest movement possible (see Adventurer's Vault mounts) and the longest ranged bow possible (see Distance Greatbow). Once you can attack targets further than 20" away and also move fast enough that they cannot close the gap, you are simply immune to about 85% of the monster manual - so it really doesn't even matter that you are using basic attacks or at-wills - you are dealing small damage while taking zero damage. This is probably done best as a Ranger, but a number of Rogue options exist and I've seen an eladrin wizard with magic missile and a number of teleport options played well with this type of strategy.
The bad news here is that you are playing a totally separate game than the first two builds - so unless your whole party is made up of guerrilla warriors you'll be leaving the others behind to die a lot.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Kiting is so effective in 4e that most games won't let you do it. I mean seriously, most 4e monsters automatically lose to that tactic. The die rolls are entirely a formality.
So most games will just force you to not do that. Maybe through some contrived closet fight scenario, maybe through explicit DM edict.But it will happen, because a horse archer breaks that game like wine glass full of blasting powder.
About the best you can be allowed to have is Wizardly Root Kiting, because that depends on actually hitting with frost beams, so you could theoretically eventually fail.
-Username17
So most games will just force you to not do that. Maybe through some contrived closet fight scenario, maybe through explicit DM edict.But it will happen, because a horse archer breaks that game like wine glass full of blasting powder.
About the best you can be allowed to have is Wizardly Root Kiting, because that depends on actually hitting with frost beams, so you could theoretically eventually fail.
-Username17
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Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
D&D 4E pretty much does everything it can to try to stop players from kiting. Note that the range for a lot of powers have been hella reduced. In a way, I can understand why they want to do that tactic, but the methods they used were inept.FrankTrollman wrote:Kiting is so effective in 4e that most games won't let you do it. I mean seriously, most 4e monsters automatically lose to that tactic. The die rolls are entirely a formality.
Really, I think the best way to prevent this is that every credible monster (even minions) should have a backup ranged attack. Kiting isn't effective against multiple monsters who can shoot back--I mean, hell, the only real way minions are effective is when you can't reach them and they're shooting the hell out of you.
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MartinHarper
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 703
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
I think they just need to make sure that ranged minions outrange the PCs, and mobile minions outspeed the PCs. I don't have a problem with PCs kiting - it's just kiting everything that is dumb.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Really, I think the best way to prevent this is that every credible monster (even minions) should have a backup ranged attack.
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Username17
- Serious Badass
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- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Thanks for the help Lago. I decided to go with a dwarf battlerager fighter. I am joining at level 3 and I don't know how long I am going to be in this, so it looks like the best thing I can do right now is heal 6hp every time someone messes with me.
I still need to give him magic stuff though. The rule is like one magic weapon at your level, one one level over, one one level under and some change right?
Or you could just buy some hippogriffs and laugh you ass off.
I still need to give him magic stuff though. The rule is like one magic weapon at your level, one one level over, one one level under and some change right?
In fairness to WotC they almost nerfed kiting into oblivion. WotC was definitely envisioning group versus group action, they even put monsters into groups for you, so slowing one enemy fifty percent of the time with ray of frost is pretty weaksauce. As for using superior movement, the lowest of the low monster wise, the goblin warrior, can move six spaces and then he can charge for another six spaces and gets a plus one to attack for his trouble. That pretty much means that only the ranger gets to shoot at people and still be out of melee range. The goblins will slowly catch up to him, unless he alternates his turns with stuff like shoot and move, next turn double move, next turn shoot....FrankTrollman wrote:Yeah, the fact that the Longbow is the longest range weapon in the entire game (PC or Monster), and the special mounts are the fastest thin gin the entire game (PC or Monster) combines to be a perfect storm of retarded.
-Username17
Or you could just buy some hippogriffs and laugh you ass off.
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socrates999
- 1st Level
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
30th level?
OK, so if you were going to play in a several session high level (possibly 30th level) game, what would you do?
I don't have the time (or patience) to wade through multiple books with large numbers of powers that all seem to do variations on the same thing. Yet, I don't want weaksauce (compared to the other characters) - I tend to be the mechanic of the group (at least in 3.5 anyway).
So, what are the good combos at this level of play, beyond the fighter stuff mentioned above? It shouldn't be absolutely game breaking (ie the equivalent of dragging an unwilling game into the Wish Economy), just strong. As I started looking through the power, it just seems like some (many?) have no business being 29th level daily powers. I mean, Meteor Swarm? Avg damage of about 35 in a burst 5? This is a 29th level daily power? I can't imagine this is the pinnacle of power that you're going to be able to obtain, but maybe it is this bad and it just doesn't matter what I make. I hope there is something a little bit more like what a character at the peak of his power can do.
Thanks for the help.
I don't have the time (or patience) to wade through multiple books with large numbers of powers that all seem to do variations on the same thing. Yet, I don't want weaksauce (compared to the other characters) - I tend to be the mechanic of the group (at least in 3.5 anyway).
So, what are the good combos at this level of play, beyond the fighter stuff mentioned above? It shouldn't be absolutely game breaking (ie the equivalent of dragging an unwilling game into the Wish Economy), just strong. As I started looking through the power, it just seems like some (many?) have no business being 29th level daily powers. I mean, Meteor Swarm? Avg damage of about 35 in a burst 5? This is a 29th level daily power? I can't imagine this is the pinnacle of power that you're going to be able to obtain, but maybe it is this bad and it just doesn't matter what I make. I hope there is something a little bit more like what a character at the peak of his power can do.
Thanks for the help.
Well, there is a huge as difference between level 29 and level 30.
But if you are playing level 30, what you want to do is find an encounter power that stuns someone until they save, best if AoE.
Then you want to be that class, pick a Paragon path that gives you utility crap, then be a demigod. Boost your attack stat like a crazy person, find something else somewhat worth it, like Orb Wizard or whatever.
Then burn through your encounter powers as fast as possible with your stun one last. Stun the monster every other round for the next 12 rounds while everyone in the party beats on it.
Convince everyone else to do the same, so that you all stunlock everything.
But if you are playing level 30, what you want to do is find an encounter power that stuns someone until they save, best if AoE.
Then you want to be that class, pick a Paragon path that gives you utility crap, then be a demigod. Boost your attack stat like a crazy person, find something else somewhat worth it, like Orb Wizard or whatever.
Then burn through your encounter powers as fast as possible with your stun one last. Stun the monster every other round for the next 12 rounds while everyone in the party beats on it.
Convince everyone else to do the same, so that you all stunlock everything.
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Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
The strongest party in the endgame is a party of 4 Orb Wizards/Wizard of the Spiral Tower/Archmage armed with Cunning Longswords and 1 Battle Captain/Demigod.
The Battle Captain assures that the team will go first and gives them large bonuses to attack in the first crucial round and beyond. That's all he's there for--bigass initiative and attack bonuses. Though if he wants to he can do bullshit like activate Perfect Front, which only gives all of his wizard buddies rerolls on every attack. The wizards lay down an inescapable stunlock on everyone and you just tell the DM pretty much 'I win'. If you run out of mojo, one of your wizards casts 'Mordenkainen's Mansion' and you take an extended rest in it, safe from everyone.
YOU A WINNER.
The Battle Captain assures that the team will go first and gives them large bonuses to attack in the first crucial round and beyond. That's all he's there for--bigass initiative and attack bonuses. Though if he wants to he can do bullshit like activate Perfect Front, which only gives all of his wizard buddies rerolls on every attack. The wizards lay down an inescapable stunlock on everyone and you just tell the DM pretty much 'I win'. If you run out of mojo, one of your wizards casts 'Mordenkainen's Mansion' and you take an extended rest in it, safe from everyone.
YOU A WINNER.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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socrates999
- 1st Level
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
You can't recycle a stun lock encounter power by going Demigod, so you will eventually end up doing the fucking at will grind, which since you can't stun lock with at wills, or have aoe effects, you will suck the balls. Probably better off going Orb Wizard Archmage and using abilities you actually get.socrates999 wrote:So let's say you're 29th (or 26th) and not 30th. How does that change the equation?
Oh, but no matter what character you are, you will buy 5 of the DR 10 belts, since they work on all sources of damage, and each one is once a day but lasts the whole encounter, thus making you fucking immortal. not completely, but pretty close.
It's pretty much the same. Most people have a huge jump in power at 30 because the Demigod makes an encounter power an at will power. Wizards have sleep however and veteran's armor let's you have a daily back for an action point. Sleep hits 16 squares and anything that gets hit goes unconscious until a save is made, which never happens with the cheese Lago outlined above. Just sleep everything and coup de grace with high damage encounter powers.socrates999 wrote:So let's say you're 29th (or 26th) and not 30th. How does that change the equation?
Actually, you can only activate item's daily so many times based on your tier. You get 1 at heroic, 2 at paragon, and 3 at epic. So a level 5 character could activate his magic armor once daily power, or his magic weapon once daily power in a single day but not both.Kaelik wrote:Oh, but no matter what character you are, you will buy 5 of the DR 10 belts, since they work on all sources of damage, and each one is once a day but lasts the whole encounter, thus making you fucking immortal. not completely, but pretty close.
Last edited by shau on Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.