Should humans be generically the best race for a class?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:34 pm

Please note that I don't believe that there shouldn't be such a thing as an ideal or nightmare race/class combination. D&D jerks off with a pair of tweezers towards the idea, so let's work with what we have.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:36 pm

I would say no. The idea that humans are "everymen" winds up meaning that other races do better in some areas and worse in others, where as a human can do anything the player wants.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:40 pm

Sure. As you say, in most games it's probably A Bad Thing to intentionally make a race the most powerful choice for a class, but if humans happen to have a slight edge in some cases then so be it.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:42 pm

I would say no. The idea that humans are "everymen" winds up meaning that other races do better in some areas and worse in others, where as a human can do anything the player wants.

Then you will have the 4E situation where humans will eventually be the worst race in the game.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:45 pm

Also, why the fuck are humans always 'generic'???

I mean, it's a really strange type of chauvinism to assert that, in a fantasy world, your own species will be both the most adaptable and the standard by which everything else is built. It's one thing to play on a human scale. That's usually ideal, because it's what we can relate best to. It's another thing entirely to make humans generic.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:56 pm

Then you will have the 4E situation where humans will eventually be the worst race in the game.

If each race has a class (or classes) it does better than average (+0) at?

Not so bad.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:56 pm

Also, why the fuck are humans always 'generic'???

I mean, it's a really strange type of chauvinism to assert that, in a fantasy world, your own species will be both the most adaptable and the standard by which everything else is built. It's one thing to play on a human scale. That's usually ideal, because it's what we can relate best to. It's another thing entirely to make humans generic.

Because players play characters they can relate to and it's easier to relate to a human being than a thri'kreen. It's thus easier to shoehorn humans into a lot of character stories than thri'kreen.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:17 pm

There are plenty of established fantasy settings that *don't* do this.

In some settings, human are the brute race. There's plenty of settings where all the other are elves and fae beings and outsiders who are physically frail but strong in magic. Humans are the least magical race.

There's also setting where humans are the mage race. The other PC races are various types of animal-men, orcs, dwarves made of stone, and so on. Human mastery of magic is what gets them by in a setting where the other races all have physical advantages.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:36 pm

Also, Humans could be the most populous, organized, and hence "civilized" race and therefore be the best Warlords/Bards/ support classes.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:34 pm

Humans are the most diverse race.

There, that's it.

Bennies for being diverse?

Your character can count as any one race, this does not have to be selected, but once you do so, it's stuck with you.

So, a human mage can be on par with an elf; a human warrior can be on par with a dwarf.

Or, use the RoW method.

Humans can take any "racial" class levels (PrC or Substitution). This means taking levels in Elven Archer or Dwarven Defender.

While every other race can only take sub-levels for either things that are a perfect fit (A gnome illusionist taking levels in the gnome illusionist racial class); or are favoured classes for their race (an elf taking levels in the gnomish giant-slayer ranger class, or an elf taking levels in the armoured mage warforged class; since elves have Ranger and Wizard on their favoured class list).

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:11 am

Why should Humans be the "generalist" race? Why not make them the "fighter" race, or the "wizard" race or the "technology" race or the "teamwork" race or something?

shau · Post by **shau** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:53 am

Boolean wrote:Why should Humans be the "generalist" race? Why not make them the "fighter" race, or the "wizard" race or the "technology" race or the "teamwork" race or something?

If you are going off Tolkien, humans should probably be the fighter race. Tolkien tended to describe Boromir and Strider as being big and strong. Add in the fact that humans barely have a life span compared to all the other races and an intelligence or wisdom penalty makes sense.

Of course, people actually know what humans are so trying to reduce the whole race to stereotype like dwarves and elves probably won't fly.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:28 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Also, why the fuck are humans always 'generic'???

I mean, it's a really strange type of chauvinism to assert that, in a fantasy world, your own species will be both the most adaptable and the standard by which everything else is built. It's one thing to play on a human scale. That's usually ideal, because it's what we can relate best to. It's another thing entirely to make humans generic.

Because humans are "transparent." It's the same way natives of [name of country or culture] think all other [countries or cultures] are weird, while their own is normal - it's transparent to them. All RPG players, barring theories of alien abduction, are human - thus, the human "race" is transparent to gamers.

Yes, it's kind of stupid. The problem is, since humans IRL are so diverse, you have to specify what the "human schtick" is for each individual campaign setting. In one, humans might be savage brutes; in another, the magical elite; in a third, slaves to demons.

Elves are tree-hugging magical archers. Dwarves are drunken Scots who kill you with axes. These are stereotypes, but everyone understands them quickly, and if your dwarves aren't drunken axe-wielding Scots, you have to explain that. Humans have no default culture, since every real-world culture is a human culture.

Regarding Tolken: It's worth remembering that (most) Elves were just flat-out better than (most) Men. Aragorn was the greatest hero of his time, but he couldn't hold a candle to the Eldar of the First Age.

Of course, in a playable game the Eldar have to be toned down quite a bit...Legolas is acceptable as a PC, but Glorfindel isn't.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:29 am

In Tolkien, humans would be the base race and elves would be an LA race. I mean elves were just flat out better. At everything.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:47 am

In Tolkien, Man actually represents Heroes, as opposed to Hobbits, who are from the idealized English countryside. In that world, Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Theoden, and Eomer are actually classic epic heroes, while Denethor and the Ringwraiths are tragic heroes from Shakespeare or ancient Greeks.

Glorfindel is unacceptable as a member of the Fellowship because of the setting and the quest. He freaking GLOWS and there is no way but sneaking to get the Ring to Mt. Doom. The only things elven kings are worse than hobbits at in LotR is moving around unseen by the Enemy and not being corrupted by the Ring.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:06 am

zeruslord wrote:In Tolkien, Man actually represents Heroes, as opposed to Hobbits, who are from the idealized English countryside. In that world, Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Theoden, and Eomer are actually classic epic heroes, while Denethor and the Ringwraiths are tragic heroes from Shakespeare or ancient Greeks.

I'd categorize the Ringwraiths more with the Furies or the Harpies than as tragic heroes.

Glorfindel is unacceptable as a member of the Fellowship because of the setting and the quest. He freaking GLOWS

Not always. Only when he unleashes his full power.

The only things elven kings are worse than hobbits at in LotR is moving around unseen by the Enemy and not being corrupted by the Ring.

When did an Elven king become corrupted? And Feanor doesn't count; he was just a huge bastard.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:21 am

The Elves all refuse to have anything to do with the ring for the stated reason that it would corrupt them.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:26 am

The backstory of the Ringwraiths and the Dwarven Ringbearers has them being aware of Sauron's evil but still greedy enough for power and gold, respectively, that they take the Rings of Power and are destroyed by them. In the trilogy, you are correct, but the background does fit.

Moving back to the original subject: I favor separate but equal. Dwarves should have dwarf-bonuses to every class, elves should have elf-bonuses to every class, and humans would probably get generic bonuses to every class, but that's without thinking through human bonuses very thoroughly. In a more developed setting, I probably would give out human-specific bonuses to different classes.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:26 am

Currently, /tg/ has a huge hard-on for making humans the hardcore bloodthirsty marauders. There's a "HUMANS, FUCK YEAH!" copypasta, and it emphasises shock-troops, kamikaze attacks/suicide bombers, the idea of "an acceptable sacrifice", genocide of the defeated and so forth.

Basically it highlights the worst and most warlike parts of our humanity and it assumes that elves don't see a benefit to sacrificing 10 of your guys to take out 100 of theirs and a base, and that orks don't, having beaten the dorfs, slaughter them to the man.

It probably links to the Imperium of Man, really. Especially Commissars and the Death Korps of Krieg.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:09 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Also, why the fuck are humans always 'generic'???

I mean, it's a really strange type of chauvinism to assert that, in a fantasy world, your own species will be both the most adaptable and the standard by which everything else is built. It's one thing to play on a human scale. That's usually ideal, because it's what we can relate best to. It's another thing entirely to make humans generic.
Because players play characters they can relate to and it's easier to relate to a human being than a thri'kreen. It's thus easier to shoehorn humans into a lot of character stories than thri'kreen.

I've written a story with a thri-kreen as the main character... though in retrospect he was probably a bit too human...

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:28 am

the last time I played WoW, it has humans as being inherently more likable (bonus to reputation) as well as having surprisingly high recovery (5% bonus to spirit stat, which determines hit point and mana regeneration). they also had some bonuses to a few weapon skills. (I want to say one and two handed swords, but it's been a while)

However, they couldn't be anything they wanted. A human couldn't be a hunter or a shaman. And back when I plaid, you generally didn't play a priest unless you were a dwarf or didn't mind being made fun of and not invited to raids. (Don't know if that's been changed, but back in the day, only dwarf priests had remove fear, and nothing the other priests had was perceived as highly useful. Again, the game changes constantly so what I know is most likely not accurate anymore.)

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:15 am

There was a thread on /tg/ about this, as well as some site I don't care about.

It lasted three threads. They're all archived.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2709630/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2710711/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2711290/

Now, for some excepts:

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Some real world facts about humans: We're the God-Damned Batman of persuit hunters. Nothing, and I mean fucking nothing, on the planet can outrun us in the long run. There are tribes who's hunting technique is to walk after a gazelle until it becomes so tire it just lays down and waits for death. Sure it takes DAYS, but the humans aren't particularly tired after the pursuit. We're just FREAKISHLY tough. Wounds that would cause other animals to just fall over dead from shock we shrug off. Fear that causes other animals to die of heart attacks we just shrug off - yes stress kills, unless you're human. We recreationally poison ourselves. Because we can't figure out something to do, we run marathons, climb Everest, go deep sea diving, break holes in the ice to go swimming, hang ourselves from hooks, go parachuting, invent Nascar, play hockey, and mutilate ourselves and our children (tatooes, piercings, circumcision, and many other more extreme body modifications). If we actually find something that might kill us, there's always some nut that has to go play with it. Sharks, tigars, man eating crocks, parana, scorpions, spiders, snakes - yeah just turn on Discovery or Animal Planet, and you'll see someone playing them right now. There's cults that toss poisonous snakes around and drink arsenic FOR FUN. There's poisonous fish that if prepared wrong will kill a man dead, yet we eat them FOR FUN.

Half the stuff we eat would kill our pets. Chocolate, asprine, onion, garlic, caffiene, nicotine, alchohol, are all known poisons that humans regularly injest, and they don't do jack to us (except the alchohol, but we all know just how much fun people have slowly killing THEIR BRAIN).

Did you know that most animals can't hold thier breath voluntarily? Yet humans at the extreme end can hold their breath for over 5 minutes. Some yogis can enter a meditation so deep that medical equipment can't detect respiration, blood pressure, or heartbeat. Humans with a bit of water and no food can survive severely injured in the elements for DAYS, if not weeks.

We can survive crushing pressure, extreme heat, arctic cold, any range of humidity, thin air, heavy air, and surprising levels of radiation (until the cancer sets in). We're just the toughest god-damned thing on the planet.

Yeah, so we're just tough as nails. We might not be fast in the short run, but over the long haul, we can put out and maintain an extreme energy output without even damaging ourselves. We can take stress and withstand injury that should just kill us outright, and fully recover. We're the God-Damned Batman.

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If you're going to compare humans to aliens, keep in mind that humans have LUDICROUS endurance compared to other members of the animal kingdom, because there were substantial periods in human history when anybody who couldn't keep tracking prey for days at a time without proper rest would starve to death right off.
Any race with ANY significant physical advantages is likely to lack that, and the mental traits that come with it.
"Log, day six. [Pursuit/flight] continues. Crew mental status worsens. Have increased [combat drug] dosages. [Expletive] hyom'ns."

Me, I like the idea of us being well-suited for combat, and optimized as The Terminator, as it were.

Alan Dean Foster had "The Damned" trilogy where we were the best fighters the good guy alien coalition could find. Even random shmoes taken from random managed to open up a can of whoopass. Our adrenal system, durability, and balanced abilities made of terrifying to all involved, allies included.

But yeah. Why should humans be the peaceful, diplomatic race? Fuck that, I wanna be a crazy race of deadly mercenaries.

"Those humans...Never can tell what they'll do. Mad, the whole lot of them! Etc"

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:20 am

In the heavily houseruled 3.x D&D setting I'm running right now, humans are primitive jungle-dwelling hunter-gatherers that focus on using their great climbing abilities to their advantage. They are regarded as good scouts if they can be coaxed into the service of the nearby nations, but their reluctance to engage in open battle and difficulty learning to read limit their utility. (I give them a climb speed and bonuses to Survival checks, but they only start knowing spoken language and a secret form of braille )

The default race are hobgoblins (roman-derived, not japan-derived), so humans are comparatively weaker, but are generically the best at being mobile ranged warriors.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:32 am

Of course, would a race that was naturally better than we were need the too stupid stubborn to quit trait that we have?

Also, presumably, fantasy worlds involve creationism, not evolution, though this is not true of all...so Dwarves, say, might get what we have IRL but more so.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:18 am

Meikle641 wrote: Alan Dean Foster had "The Damned" trilogy where we were the best fighters the good guy alien coalition could find. Even random shmoes taken from random managed to open up a can of whoopass. Our adrenal system, durability, and balanced abilities made of terrifying to all involved, allies included.

But yeah. Why should humans be the peaceful, diplomatic race? Fuck that, I wanna be a crazy race of deadly mercenaries.

"Those humans...Never can tell what they'll do. Mad, the whole lot of them! Etc"

Great trilogy. And it wasn't as if the humans were protrayed as supermen - just that all aliens, "good" and "bad" included, had immense psychological and moral troubles with war. Even the "bad" guys wanted to save as many of the enemies as they could - they truly felt they were doing the best for everyone by integrating all races into a big society so that everyone would achieve the next level of evolution. Humans though just did what we did all along - kill stuff in war. Incendentally, they were also immune to mind control by the main "bad" aliens.

The endurance/toughness/stubborness angle seems a very good concept to make humans unique. "Humans just don't quit" would also fit in with all the worlds and settings that have humans as the race that's encroaching on the older races.