Old Nifty and Nazism disguised as "The Monk Rant"

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:09 pm

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:Saying that white people would have an interstellar empire if the Pope wasn't holding us back when that wasn't a factor elsewhere and no one else developed space travel in the 13th century isn't racist.

Count, I'm curious. Has anyone in this discussion used the term 'white people' besides you?

Fallen Hero · Post by **Fallen Hero** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:11 pm

I think the german word for concentration camps in relation to places like Auschwitz and Dachau, is Vernichtungslager, which translates into extermination camp or interchangeably Todeslager (death camp). KZ is the abbreviation for Konzentrationslager (concentration camp).

Having been to Dachau and listen to the tales of what they did there, and seen the furnace they used to destroy the bodies; it's disturbing and appalling. Being in that place is unnerving and sobering. Regardless of what it is called.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:16 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:There is not one 'people' in the Middle East. There are several cultures and ethnicities, all of whom consider themselves quite distinct from one another. Referring to 'the middle eastern people' having 'the beginnings of modern mathematics,' with no further details is like talking about 'the asians' having 'the beginnings of modern currency.' Specific cultures did these things at a specific times.

A better comparison might be "Referring to 'the middle eastern people' having 'the beginnings of modern mathematics', with no further details is like talking about 'the Chinese' having 'the beginnings of modern currency'."

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:18 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:Saying that white people would have an interstellar empire if the Pope wasn't holding us back when that wasn't a factor elsewhere and no one else developed space travel in the 13th century isn't racist.
Count, I'm curious. Has anyone in this discussion used the term 'white people' besides you?

You used the term Europeans. Europeans are white, for the most part. Europe is literally where white people come from. I don't see why that confuses you.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:41 pm

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:You used the term Europeans. Europeans are white, for the most part. Europe is literally where white people come from. I don't see why that confuses you.

Ah, see, I used the term 'European Dark Ages.' That's a reference to a particular period of time over a particular geographical area.

See, if you believe (as I do) the author of Guns, Germs, and Steel, the success of people from various regions of the world has a lot to do with the advantageous geography of the regions, and nothing to do with any racial superiority mumbo-jumbo of the people.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:44 pm

However, not having access to great stretches of people or territory means that innovation stops.

Knowing the Earth was round in the 10th century BC did the Greeks no good; they could only access about a quarter of it. And they did.

Having advanced trading and mathematics did the Arabs no good because they had no one to trade with.

Having advanced monetary law and chemistry did the Chinese no good because, once again, they had no one to trade with.

Honestly, even though it was terrible for the locals, the European policy of creating trade partners - even if not equal ones - probably is what broke the world out of its shell of having only one bright spot at a time. Their Guns, Germs, and Steel allowed them to do this, but there was nothing important about the race itself. Anyone could've done it - but only the Europeans were bounded on four sides by other peoples they could trade with.

The Chinese had to go the long way around to get to Arabs. Stupid mountains and glaciers and deserts in the way, yet trade away their silks they did for thousands of years. The Arabs had trade, but Europeans wouldn't trade for thousands of years, and in that time, their cities were repeatedly destroyed by natural disaster. Cities built in jungles succumb much faster than cities in deserts and temperate regions - so SE Asia, India, Africa, and meso-America not only couldn't expand, they were unable to support long-term technological advances (see Guns, Germs, and Steel) without support from temperate regions.

-Crissa

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:50 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:If the dark ages held us back so much, why didn't cultures who just didn't live within the Pope's sphere of influence just visit the moon in the 13th century? Or are you assuming that white people are just better at everything?

Aside from your attempt to bring racism into it this post makes sense. Neeeek's objection was stupid. The fact that there have been multiple cultures with advanced tech that didn't go through explosive growth into the information age is an intelligent refutation of the idea that we'd be on the moon in the 13th century.

Why you felt the need to start slinging racism around is beyond me.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:06 am

Is the racism tag about the use of the term "white people"?

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:10 am

The whole racism tangent is really hilarious when you consider that all those "Middle Eastern People" fall under the Caucasian banner.

EDIT:

Maj: Actually, Arioch was the first person to mention "white people." Apparently, he took some of the other ideas being bandied around in this thread as evidence of racism. Then angel started getting onto even more ridiculous definitions of racism.

And I still wonder how angel accounts for the fact that Arabs and Asians had the same kinds of resources the Europeans had but still didn't visit the moon. Having a stingy church isn't the only cultural factor that can hold back your advancement.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:41 am

They didn't. The Arabs had algebra, but no rockets, when you want them to go to the moon. The Chinese, the only group with rockets, had no algebra when you want them to go to the moon. One of the most impressive things about Buzz Aldrin is that he solved all the differential equations and crap that it takes to go to the moon. The basics of differentiation were invented by Isaac Barrow, but Newton and Liebniz, partly independently, refined them, found some shortcuts, invented integrals, and created formal notation for them. This is between 1650 and 1704 in Western Europe. Arabs did not have rockets, and neither Arabs nor Asians had calculus.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:02 am

It's worth noting that even today, only one nation has ever sent people to the moon, despite the technology required being readily available even in Mongolia these days.

But Neil Armstrong said it best: Only a few individuals ever set foot on the moon, and yet it was an accomplishment of the human species as a whole.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:10 am

I still like Aldrin better. Both of them have an elementary school named after them in Reston. I went to Aldrin Elementary for two years, and he came and spoke while I was there. Actually, he tries to speak at all the Aldrin Elementaries as often as he reasonably can. Armstrong Elementary never got a visit.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:30 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote: And I still wonder how angel accounts for the fact that Arabs and Asians had the same kinds of resources the Europeans had but still didn't visit the moon. Having a stingy church isn't the only cultural factor that can hold back your advancement.

I thought that was easy enough, Both the Chinese and Muslim civilizations had reached the developmental peaks centuries beforehand (about 1500s for China and 16/1700s for Muslims) who then fell into empirical/ bureaucratic stagnation until about the 1970-80s (if at all for much of the muslim world). European innovations of the renaissance were greatly aided by scientific texts passed on by the Muslims which gave them a larger spring board than the Muslims got from the Greeks.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:39 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:The whole racism tangent is really hilarious when you consider that all those "Middle Eastern People" fall under the Caucasian banner.

I think the Greeks having a steam turbine and not doing anything useful with it is funnier.

Really the industrial revolution could've happened anywhere, its just that wherever it happens first gets the prize because it snowballs to much.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:12 am

Iraqi battery, etc.

What does everyone think of Atlantis's supposed recent discovery off the coast of Africa?

Will yet more technologies be unearthed that we've taken for granted as "modern inventions"?

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:52 pm

Do you have a non-quack link? Some respected scientific/archeological authority?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:08 am

ckafrica wrote:Do you have a non-quack link? Some respected scientific/archeological authority?

Nope! That's why I'm asking. Seemed too good to be true.

I also found this today

EDIT: HOLY SHIT I found it on Google map just by looking N/W of African coast and Canary Islands!

Here's the coordinates: 31.302022, -24.296265
You must zoom out a little more than halfway on the slider since this region is fucking huge. It's literally larger than Bermuda or Delaware.

If this is some kind of Photoshop'd Google hoax I will shit myself with rage.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:54 am

It's huge. Like the size of a western state.

And being as no one really saw it before, it's probably an artifact.

-Crissa

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:17 pm

There actually are a lot of underwater cities. None of them are Atlantis, because Atlantis is fiction written by an actual person who marked it as fiction when he wrote it. It's like looking for Eisenguard. It's not going to happen ever.

But the EEarth's water levels have risen considerably since civilization began. There are a lot of dwellings from circa 10 thousand years ago that are underwater.

That particular find doesn't even look like a city, so I don't know what the big deal is.

-Username17

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:07 pm

Well Google is saying it is just a sonar anomaly. It's way too far out to be an old city covered up by rising seas so I'm gonna go with mistake

Jinerviet · Post by **Jinerviet** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:11 pm

Sorry, Sigma999:
"It's true that many amazing discoveries have been made in Google Earth - a pristine forest in Mozambique that is home to previously unknown species, a fringing coral reef off the coast of Australia, and the remains of an Ancient Roman villa, to name just a few.

"In this case, however, what users are seeing is an artefact of the data collection process. Bathymetric (or seafloor terrain) data is often collected from boats using sonar to take measurements of the seafloor. The lines reflect the path of the boat as it gathers the data. The fact that there are blank spots between each of these lines is a sign of how little we really know about the world's oceans." - http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/ ... gle-535617