A rant against so-called heroes

[cthulhu]

And the problems we're arguing with Elennsar about don't involve these kinds of manipulations. They're straightforward applications of basic probability. And Elennsar has the benefit of lots of people repeatedly taking the time to explain the principles to him.

Oh definately, he's failing (and how) at understanding that you need to consider all inputs to the final outcome

[Elennsar]

E, my question regarding how often someone should survive combat was to you. Please give us specifics on how often you would like cahracters to survive.

Please get Frank to give specifics on how often characters survive in Warp Cult.

No, seriously. If you're so bloody concerned, make that for everyone designing anything. If not, stop it.

"Close calls" should be set up so that on average they end up being close calls. That is, nobody dies but you're pretty weak. If you've lost half your PCs, that's no longer a close call, it's a bloodbath.

Your definition of "bloodbath" seems to be "oh fuck, we actually have dead PCs."

I mean, what else would you call a battle in which half of the main characters in any Star trek show died. If Picard, Data and Troi get offed in a single battle, that's not a close call, it's basically the end of the series.

And you want to set that up as the most likely result?!

I want to set that up as a result in a fight that is -supposed- to risk total defeat. If you're fighting someone equally skilled (equal numbers), you -should- be having a fairly "high" chance of losing and possibly losing badly.

That's the whole goddamn -point- of fighting someone equally skilled. It -is- hard.

Clearly, but I'd venture that a number of participants in this thread just answered a probability question incorrectly.

Anyway, until Elessnar articulates a vision, he's not going to be worth engaging with at this point.

Yes, I have a vision of you demonstrating that you can calculate any number of things out to any number of decimal places, but never actually playing a game to see the actual choices and the actual rolls and how they match up.

Oh definately, he's failing (and how) at understanding that you need to consider all inputs to the final outcome

Including the decisions on what exact moves, which are impossible to perfectly predict ahead of time. You can weigh what's available and how things compare, but a given fight that is otherwise equal can become unequal very quickly in play, which is where characters actually -die- or not.

[IGTN]

Alright. Frank, how many adventures are Warp Cultists supposed to survive?

What are Warp Cultists supposed to do when they come into conflict with an equal number of equal-point characters (another cult, or an imperial unit)?

How many adventures are Warp Cultists expected to survive if they fight whenever they run into an enemy?

[Elennsar]

Might not be a bad idea to ask in the Warp Cult thread in case he's ignoring this one.

[violence in the media]

He's only ignoring you. He posted back on page 17.

[Elennsar]

Right - but I'm reasonably sure that he's not paying this thread a lot of attention.

Regardless, if he doesn't respond here, I'd say that posting it in that thread would be appropriate.

Assuming, of course, we actually want to know. Personally, I'm not particularly concerned - I'm just annoyed at being pestered to calculate out how many encounters the PCs should survive and what level of danger they're in when Warp Cult and other projects haven't been providing any more concrete numbers.

[IGTN]

I'm just annoyed at being pestered to calculate out how many encounters the PCs should survive and what level of danger they're in when Warp Cult and other projects haven't been providing any more concrete numbers.

Other projects also haven't been making "PCs have a high mathematical chance of DEATH" a fundamental design goal. We're pretty clear on what Warp Cult wants to do; we're not clear on what Arturius wants to do, hence the questions about its goals.

[Elennsar]

I don't want a HIGH chance. I want a real chance that can actually happen.

Apparently, "high" in Den terms means that you would not regard it as a surprise for there to be a dead PC or even more than one.

As for Arturius's goals: Pestering me to give numbers and "what actions can we take in combat" right away doesn't answer the question on what the goals very well - though noticing that archery is deliberately emphasised as weak might.

[Crissa]

You seem unclear on the definition of the word 'goals' and how to create or attain them.

-Crissa

[Elennsar]

No, I am very clear that pestering and annoying someone is NOT the best way to assist them in reaching those goals, nor is asking for specifics from the begining.

Apparently, several Denners think that asking a question ten times is somehow going to magically conjure up some answser that is actually something the person wants checked or tested or used or whatever and specific enough to be a definate percentage.

[Crissa]

Without 'specifics' like 'your goal', it becomes somewhat difficult to reach that goal.

-Crissa

[cthulhu]

No, I am very clear that pestering and annoying someone is NOT the best way to assist them in reaching those goals, nor is asking for specifics from the begining.

Apparently, several Denners think that asking a question ten times is somehow going to magically conjure up some answser that is actually something the person wants checked or tested or used or whatever and specific enough to be a definate percentage.

You do need to articulate a vision though - people are getting bogged down in tactical questions because you haven't given a high level strategic vision that people feel is workable.

Until you can take people through the journey - and the game design flowsheet is a good starting pointing - with you to where you want your game to be from a vision perspective with that high level view, you're not going to get the outcomes you want.

[Elennsar]

Then -ask- about the vision and big goal beyond what I've said if that's not enough, not about whether or not something equivalant to a flurry of blows (but less useless) exists.

I do have a working idea of what I want in general terms, but I don't see anyone looking for it.

[cthulhu]

I think several people have asked for the vision with a sample party and adventure and campagin, it will solve many of the issues, so you should just present it anyway.

Promoting an idea isn't about answering the question that has been spoken - its about answering what they really want to know. People are drilling you with questions about death rates and probability because they don't understand how you want a campagin to look. So while the written questions are about probability, what you really need to do is walk people through is an adventure, and then a campagin. You might also walk people through how you want a battle to flow if fights are central to your vision.

If you talk people through that journey, they'll understand how you want the peices to fit together thematically, and can help mechanically.

[Elennsar]

I think several people have asked for the vision with a sample party and adventure and campagin, it will solve many of the issues, so you should just present it anyway.

And far more than several have pestered on every little detail that they can think of and that I am not merely mostly-certain on.

So while the written questions are about probability, what you really need to do is walk people through is an adventure, and then a campagin. You might also walk people through how you want a battle t flow if fights are central to your vision.

Then ask the actual questions you (plural) want answers to. Asking "Do people get a finite number of defences they can take per turn?" if you want to know that is -much- more useful than "what is the chance of someone hitting someone else" both in terms of being something I can reasonably give an answer to at this point and provided that's what you want to find out, getting said information (If anyone is, in fact, interested - ask in thread, please.)

If you talk people through that journey, they'll understand how you want the peices to fit together thematically, and can help mechanically.

If you want to know that, then -ask- about that. If you want to know whether a flurry of blows is an available move or not, ask that.

If "both", the latter is several steps off, so ask me the former now, and we'll see about the other when we get there.

[cthulhu]

Have you done the game design flowsheet?

[Elennsar]

No. How many of the games people are working on here (or people here are working on) have?

I'm curious, here - I think its well worth reading, but I don't think filling it out Tells Everything.

[violence in the media]

Elennsar, people have asked you about all the shit you claim to want them to ask. When people ask specific questions, you respond saying that you don't have specific answers. When they ask general questions, you demand that they be more specific.

Being that I don't believe you have any idea of how people function and how to relate to human beings, I'm going to spell this out for you:

No one is obligated to help you design anything.[/i]

It is your job to make this project accessible to others if you want their help in designing it. That means you have to do the legwork of presenting your vision so they know what they have to work with. That means answering their questions when asked, even if it means making up something on the spot or thinking about it for a short while before posting.

You seem to have this erroneous notion that you can direct this project like some high-level executive, giving general directions and grading the work of your peons. That is not going to fly, given your current relationship with the forum, and is unlikely to succeed even if our general estimations of you improve.

TL;DR: It's your project, put some demonstrable fucking work in it and quit your goddamn whining about being pestered. You don't like being pestered about your project? Drop it or leave.

[cthulhu]

Of course not - but it is a start. See, "the number of defenses people have a round' is a question that is entirely at the wrong level. You don't even have people on the same page about the overall theme of the setting and system, looking at what happens in a combat turn

[Elennsar]

Elennsar, people have asked you about all the shit you claim to want them to ask. When people ask specific questions, you respond saying that you don't have specific answers. When they ask general questions, you demand that they be more specific.

Being that I don't believe you have any idea of how people function and how to relate to human beings, I'm going to spell this out for you:

No one is obligated to help you design anything.

No, they haven't. As for obligated to help: No one said anything whatsofuckingever about being obligated to help. If you don't want to help, then don't. If you do, then be helpful.

You seem to have this erroneous notion that you can direct this project like some high-level executive, giving general directions and grading the work of your peons. That is not going to fly, given your current relationship with the forum, and is unlikely to succeed even if our general estimations of you improve.

No, I have the notion that if you actually want to fucking help, then actually helping and not pestering for answers which I am looking for myself (and hoping others who would like to work on this have some ideas to work with) instead of having handy is not going to help.

Of course not - but it is a start. See, "the number of defenses people have a round' is a question that is entirely at the wrong level. You don't even have people on the same page about the overall theme of the setting and system, looking at what happens in a combat turn

Then ASK about the overall theme of the setting and system. I'm reasonably sure that the "historical Arthur and Alfred the Great" aren't such totally obscure topics that NOTHING comes to mind to ask about, and if they are, that asking what I mean by that would be possible.


But apparently, "help" means "do what we want, whether that actually assists in any way whatsoever, and we don't care what you actually want assistance with, and we don't want to choose "okay, we will ignore it, because pestering you is more fun.""

Seriously, it would be a less obnoxious question and vastly more useful in terms of getting anything that would actually explain anything to ask "Will there be pikes?" then "What is the chance of hitting someone with a normal attack, asusming you're the same skill level."

The pike question actually tells you something about what I'm trying to create. The "chance of hitting" tells you that I dislike pulling numbers from my ass.

Free answer: No, there won't.

[Murtak]

Then ASK about the overall theme of the setting and system.

Pretty much everyone on this forum has asked multiple questions by now, only to have their questions get dismissed as "pestering". You don't answer questions that require a definite answer. You actually flat out refuse to post even a single number, except those numbers you ignore in your very next post.

Don't tell me or anybody on this forums to "just come and ask me". That is frankly insulting after ignoring literally hundreds of crystal clear, repeated questions by dozens of posters. I boggle at you being able to type this. Doesn't a tiny voice in your head try to pipe in with something akin to "but, but, they did ask!"?

Edit: I just noticed we have an ignore feature now. Well, that's one problem solved. I urge anyone frustrated with Elennsar and anyone who thinks he is just a troll to simply put him on ignore. I have seen it work on other forums, maybe it will work here.

[Psychic Robot]

Helpful suggestion: let this thread die until Elennsar comes up with a design flowsheet (or whatever) for Arturius. Once he creates the basics for the system, people can critique it so that something will happen. Right now, I'm seeing a terrible, self-destructive system where Elennsar is the boss, and the other posters are the employees trying to help him out.

ELENNSAR: Project time, guys! I want a system where people have a chance to die!
POSTER #1: What about using a system like Shadowrun has?
ELENNSAR: No, I don't like it.
POSTER #2: How about something like World of Darkness? That works pretty well.
ELENNSAR: No, I don't like it.
POSTER #3: Well, what about Warhammer?
ELENNSAR: No, I don't like it.
POSTER #1: You need to get a baseline survivability down. We can work from there when you know it.
ELENNSAR: I don't know what I want survivability to be. I just know that I want you to have a good chance to die against an evenly-matched opponent.
POSTER #2: Define a "good chance."
ELENNSAR: I don't know. Stop pestering me!
POSTER #1: It's going to be a problem if the PCs are supposed to fight even if they can die. It's one thing if you want them to focus on non-combat options, but to expect them to fight and die creates a revolving PC door phenomenon.
ELENNSAR: You guys aren't being helpful! Don't post if you aren't going to help.
POSTER #3: If your PCs have a 20% chance of dying in a fight, they're all going to wind up dead by the end of the campaign. [Math.]
ELENNSAR: I want a system to circumvent probability.
POSTER #3: I'm not sure that's possible.
POSTER #1: [Math.]
POSTER #2: [Math.]
POSTER #3: [Math.]
ELENNSAR: I reject your reality and substitute my own.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I have to admit that this is a bit fun, but I've never been that far away from the ignore button.

On average, how many well-rested PCs in a group of 4 should survive the following encounters:
1 - An encounter of equal CR.
2 - An encounter of CR-2.
3 - An encounter of CR+2.
4 - Four encounters of equal CR.
5 - Four encounters of CR-2.
6 - Four encounters of CR+2.

For me:
1 - All of them (possibly one PC comes close, at -6 hp or so)
2 - All of them (this is a henchmen fight)
3 - Three of them (the others should be pretty wounded)
4 - Three of them (a 'lucky' kill took one to -20 instead of -6)
5 - All of them (maybe some henchmen die)
6 - None of them

This is something like a 1/16 chance of death versus even opposition, and a 1/4 chance of death versus opposition of CR+2, with a 0 percent chance of death against opposition of CR-2. Take note, you can keep adding goblins to make the CR bigger. For the most part, people die only in climactic scenes (boos fights). Good tactics or the surprise round can avoid death against even CR.

For Call of Cthulhu (as best I understand it):
1 - 1-2 of them.
2 - 3 of them
3 - None of them.
4 - None of them.
5 - 1 of them... maybe.
6 - None of them.

This is about a 50-75% chance of death against even opposition, 25% chance of death versus 'inferior' opposition, and >90% chance of death to better opposition. Characters in this world avoid combat because it kills people. If you see a monster, you run the fuck away because it will kill half of your group on a bad day. People will bring alternate characters to the session.

What about you, Elennsar?

Please note that this is a direct question that you should be able to answer.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

You seem to have this erroneous notion that you can direct this project like some high-level executive, giving general directions and grading the work of your peons.

I think this is a huge problem with Artorius. If you post somethng on a public internet forum, you're never going to have total control over the feedback. People will always grab onto whatever part of your post they're interested in and run with it. It's better to look at such divergences as opportunities to analyze your concept in ways you've never thought of, rather than as breaches of discipline.

[Elennsar]

This is about a 50-75% chance of death against even opposition, 25% chance of death versus 'inferior' opposition, and >90% chance of death to better opposition. Characters in this world avoid combat because it kills people. If you see a monster, you run the fuck away because it will kill half of your group on a bad day. People will bring alternate characters to the session. What about you, Elennsar?

Please note that this is a direct question that you should be able to answer.

Depends on what kind of "better" and what kind of "inferior".

No, seriously.

Let's say you're average quality (average is in typical) and you run into an exceptional guy like this: http://www.regia.org/warfare/huscarl.htm

That's probably going to ruin -someone'-s day.

On the other hand, inferior opposition can be anywhere from a less skilled guy like that to someone like this poor fellow: http://stronghold.ovh.org/strong-gry-on ... earmen.jpg

who has a really bad chance of surviving your attack (which means a really bad chance in play of getting to hit you), though enough of him and his buddies in a firm line will make your horse point out to you that he doesn't go in for the kinky stuff.

So what are you facing?

I think this is a huge problem with Artorius. If you post somethng on a public internet forum, you're never going to have total control over the feedback. People will always grab onto whatever part of your post they're interested in and run with it. It's better to look at such divergences as opportunities to analyze your concept in ways you've never thought of, rather than as breaches of discipline.

Running with it is one thing - running with an idea and suggesting stuff is freakin' awesome. Especially stuff I haven't thought of - if I didn't want that, I wouldn't ask for suggestions.

Badgering and pestering and demanding that I answer that you will hit 26% of the time or something is not freakin' awesome. It doesn't produce anything anything for me to pull that from my ass.

Breaches of discipline have nothing to do with it. If you want to assist and want to help generate stuff, then help generate stuff. Frustration and irritation and asspulled numbers are not "stuff".[/i]