Were the grappling rules really that hard to understand?

[Lago PARANOIA]

I mean, I thought it was pretty okay. Not exactly an ability you'd be whipping out all of the time, due to size modifiers, but it wasn't exactly hard to grok. So what's the deal here?

[Psychic Robot]

Too many rolls.

[Username17]

I mean, I thought it was pretty okay. Not exactly an ability you'd be whipping out all of the time, due to size modifiers, but it wasn't exactly hard to grok. So what's the deal here?

Yes. You don't know how they work, and I don't know how they work.

Just off the top of your head: you have a base attack bonus of +8. You attack a dude with a grapple test. It is your intention to pin them and then do damage. What the fuck? Adding insult to injury, let's say that you have the constrict ability.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Just off the top of your head: you have a base attack bonus of +8. You attack a dude with a grapple test. It is your intention to pin them and then do damage. What the fuck? Adding insult to injury, let's say that you have the constrict ability.

You know, come to think of it, I never got a straight answer on whether the grapple was an attack and got bonuses due to that or a check and got bonuses for that.

But I used to (way back when) play a straight-up monk and I was under the delusion that monks were AWESOME at grappling so I knew the rules, even what improved grab and constrict did. But I could never get an answer on the attack/check thing. I think I even asked this board once. Oh, well.

[Anguirus]

I mean, I thought it was pretty okay. Not exactly an ability you'd be whipping out all of the time, due to size modifiers, but it wasn't exactly hard to grok. So what's the deal here?

I've never seen a grapple used that didn't bring game play to a screeching halt. Grapple is also the sort of thing that a D&D hero would never want to use. You rarely face things that are your size (and strength) or smaller that don't outnumber you. If you are out numbered, taking it to the ground is a terrible idea (in real life) because you can't defend yourself against attacks outside of the grapple. If you are fighting something bigger than you, taking it to the ground is a terrible idea because you are unlikely to be able to do anything meaningful there.

[RandomCasualty2]

I've never seen a grapple used that didn't bring game play to a screeching halt. Grapple is also the sort of thing that a D&D hero would never want to use. You rarely face things that are your size (and strength) or smaller that don't outnumber you. If you are out numbered, taking it to the ground is a terrible idea (in real life) because you can't defend yourself against attacks outside of the grapple. If you are fighting something bigger than you, taking it to the ground is a terrible idea because you are unlikely to be able to do anything meaningful there.

Yeah, generally I couldn't think of many instances where you'd want to grapple. About the only use for it is facing other NPCs, especically casters. Like agaisnt a powerful NPC wizard, you can grapple him then having your rogue body shank him while you're denying him a dex bonus. It also forces the mage to waste his next action on dimension door.

The main problem is that there's just so much that can go wrong with that and wizards are fragile anyway that you're better off just stabbing the guy in the first place.

And against any kind of monster battle, as you've said, it's basically pointless. The only time you'd ever want to do it is if there was one monster, but if there's one monster it's always bigger and stronger than you are.

[Arcane-surge]

I played a grappler wizard, and I wound up making flash cards that said things like, "You are now being pinned! Roll an opposed grapple check using your base attack + strength mod + size bonus + whatever else."

[Roy]

Except that you have such a small chance of even making contact, and then such a small chance he is not immune to grapple, and not immune to SA you're better off using the rare chance to actually get through his real defenses to stab him in the face.

Oh and he might be a grappler Wizard, in which case it will be him taking you to the ground.

[Ice9]

Just off the top of your head: you have a base attack bonus of +8. You attack a dude with a grapple test. It is your intention to pin them and then do damage. What the fuck? Adding insult to injury, let's say that you have the constrict ability.

Ok, fine - off the top of my head:

First you make a touch attack, and provoke an AoO unless you have the feat, same as any other combat manuever. The only odd thing here is that if you take damage from the AoO the grapple is cancelled.

Then you make a grapple check (the bonus for which should already be on your sheet, as there is a space for it), against the opponent's grapple check (likewise), so no worse than rolling any opposed check. If you succeed, you are grappling, and Constrict kicks in, as per its description.

Now if you have multiple iterative attacks, you can attempt to pin right away - again, the same as making multiple trip/disarm/whatever attacks. Pin is the same opposed check as grappling. And since its a grapple check, Constrict kicks in.

If you have a third iterative attack, you can deal damage. Again, the same opposed check, and Constrict kicks in.

The thing that throws people off is that other combat manuevers don't change the state you're in, whereas grappling actually moves you out of the "melee" state to the "grappling" state. And just as melee has different rules than ranged combat, grappling has different rules than melee. The Fantasy Trip says this up front, which D&D would probably benefit from doing.

But it's mainly because it's uncommon that it ends up as confusing. Imagine if a group of players, used to modern-era settings where all combat was at range with guns, suddenly encountered melee combat. It would be this baffling thing with its own weird rules - "What do you mean I get attacked for moving? Trip? Disarm? What the hell are those? Reach weapons? Why are these rules so confusing?!"

Seriously, play a grappling character for a game or two, and the rules will become clear.

[Username17]

Ice9, you missed a step. You get to do normal grapple damage the first time you succeed in grappling someone, in addition to taking combat to grapple range. Which is pretty much my point: no one knows how it works because how it works is dumb.

For extra credit: a Legendary Wolf is grappling you, how many times can it get its bite attack in? (answer: no one knows, because the rules don't say)
You just fucking want to pin them and don't care about grappling for damage, and indeed you don't even want to do any damage for any of a thousand reasons mostly having to do with [Compulsion] effects. Can you elect to pin or confiscate a weapon instead of doing damage one your initial grapple attempt? (answer: no one knows again).

That being said, I have satisfactorily grappled all kinds of crap. I've grappled animated objects, I've grappled dragons, I've grappled wizards, I've grappled skeletons. The key is that the things people think you should be grappling like bears are functionally immune. But things you'd think would be satisfactorily immune to grappling are actually pansies to it. You looked at the BAB on a Skeleton? The size modifier of a Dragon of your level? It's bullshit is what it is. You can put a white dragon into a headlock at basically any level. You can headlock the other dragons at any level you encounter them. I only specify white dragons because the other ones don't show up until level 2+.

-Username17

[ubernoob]

I played a grapple wizard just last night*. Gargantuan sized, 46 str, 5 attacks a round (6 if I bother with haste), improved grab, 12 bab, the works.

I was bigger than everything I faced, and had AMF (extraordinary spell aimed outside of myself, of course) active on my person. That was rather convenient when I grappled the vampire wizard BBEG.

So, yeah. With enough abuse, every rule can be workable.

*Strictly a shits and giggles one shot. The fact is, I took out fewer enemies than the sorcerer spamming flesh to stone. I just happened to be big enough that I let the entire party ride on my shoulders for transport for the lulz.

[Ice9]

Ok, fair enough. However, I do actually know that step, I just forgot to write it down. No way to prove that, I guess.

a Legendary Wolf is grappling you, how many times can it get its bite attack in? (answer: no one knows, because the rules don't say)

The rules appear to say that it'd get BAB-based iterative attacks, despite using a natural weapon. While this can be a strange fit with many monsters, it does clear up any issues with combining attacking and other grappling manuevers.

Can you elect to pin or confiscate a weapon instead of doing damage one your initial grapple attempt? (answer: no one knows again).

Actually, the rules are pretty clear on that - you deal the damage, whether you want to or not. Of course, it can (and often must) be nonlethal. Not exactly common sense, but it wouldn't be the first time a rule doesn't match common sense.

The key is that the things people think you should be grappling like bears are functionally immune. But things you'd think would be satisfactorily immune to grappling are actually pansies to it.

No argument there. But that's a function of the numbers being wrong, not the rules being too complex. Personally, I'd like to see asymetrical grapple/escape bonuses (as in, even a strong halfling is highly unlikely to pin a giant, but would have a decent chance to escape said giant's grasp). And I'm not saying the rules couldn't be simplified somewhat. But they aren't unworkable now, and at least IMO, 4E/Pathfinder-style "grappling is a mild inconvenience" rules aren't an improvement.

[Crissa]

I was actually going to build a graphical flow chart for all this stuff this weekend...

Borrowing software and everything.

-Crissa

[Josh_Kablack]

Jamicia Phats was a pretty effective grapplemancer, and his player barely knew the system - he was a rog1/Wiz N with augment summon, eventually a druid cohort (also with augment summon) and the smarts to print out all the relevant animal stats beforehand. That's really all it took to be effective.

[Koumei]

I recently made a Grapplemancer. The Dirty Harridan, who sometimes claims to be from one of the layers of Baator and goes by the name "The Canian Crippler". *innocent look*

Yeah, no-one ever expects you to piledrive a dragon then choke them out with the crippler crossface.