"extra arms do not give extra attacks"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:22 pm

alright, some idiot is saying the extra arms from insectile are "purely cosmetic" and don't give extra attacks (which they don't) "even with multi-weapon fighting"

what's the errata or actual rule on this?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:50 pm

The extra arms don't give you extra claw attacks. If you are someone who gets "claws" your attack line still has "claws." If it ha "2 Claws" your attack line still has "2 claws."

But multiweapon fighting is an entirely different thing. It's just literally how many weapons you happen to be holding. Getting access to a bunch of extra hands and subsequently holding extra weapons is enough by itself to get multiweapon attacks and penalties.

-Username17

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:52 pm

Rules are on your side.

For shaky rules grounds, you can look up the following:

You can cite F&K.
You can cite Girallon's Blessing (SpC).
You can cite http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20. ... a.arms.php
You can cite http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/spe ... -of-plenty (this is in LoM)
You can cite the Thri-Kreen.

here is the big list of ways to get extra arms, every one of them gives extra attacks:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:hsl ... clnk&gl=us

However, the real argument that you have to make is:
"This is a +2 LA. There is absolutely no reason to take it if the arms don't do anything. Do you think it assigned that +2 LA for it's TremorSense, +2 NA, +4 Dex and +2 Wis?"

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:50 pm

I dunno if that argument will work - there are people out there who think the Drow are good at +2 LA.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:14 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The extra arms don't give you extra claw attacks. If you are someone who gets "claws" your attack line still has "claws." If it ha "2 Claws" your attack line still has "2 claws."

But multiweapon fighting is an entirely different thing. It's just literally how many weapons you happen to be holding. Getting access to a bunch of extra hands and subsequently holding extra weapons is enough by itself to get multiweapon attacks and penalties.

-Username17

this is what I said, but I need something to back it up, because while most of us here on the den will take it on your say so, the dm for this game may not.

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:Rules are on your side.

For shaky rules grounds, you can look up the following:

You can cite F&K.

as above

You can cite Girallon's Blessing (SpC).

spell specifically grants claw attacks, and says nothing about "these arms do not grant you extra attacks" or anything about multi-weapon fighting.

You can cite http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20. ... a.arms.php

see girallon's blessing

You can cite http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/spe ... -of-plenty (this is in LoM)

see girallon's blessing

You can cite the Thri-Kreen.

same problem as Girallon's Blessing. They specifically have four claws.

However, the real argument that you have to make is:
"This is a +2 LA. There is absolutely no reason to take it if the arms don't do anything. Do you think it assigned that +2 LA for it's TremorSense, +2 NA, +4 Dex and +2 Wis?"

yeah, I'll state that.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:18 pm

The only argument you need, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook:

Page 15, XPH wrote: Multiple Limbs: Thri-keen have four arms, and thus can take the Multiweapon Fighting feat instead of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Thri-keen can also take the Multiattack feat (these are not bonus feats)

Edit: Actually, the Natural Attacks below the Multiple Limbs explicitly says the Thri-keen can attack with four claws and bite, or a Thri-Keen ranger can hold three short swords (thank to Multiweapon Fighting), attack with each of them at a -2 penalty and still bite something with a -5 penalty.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:36 pm

ok, apparently people aren't understanding. here's what's being said:

wooden wrote:I know that the insectile template grants additional arms, I'm worried about the part that says "doesn't grant additional attacks," which might disqualify you from taking advantage of the extra attacks that Multiweapon Fighting might grant, despite the fact that you qualify for the feat.

I'm of the opinion that this doesn't work. Prime, what do you think?

Prime wrote:The insectile template's arms are purely cosmetic - you can't use them to make extra attacks, and that feat won't change things.

(If you want extra usable limbs, may I suggest the combo of Dragon TailRotD/Prehensile TailSS?)

Insectile Template wrote:Attacks: Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.

So, what do I cite to make them understand that Insectile's extra arms are usable? That one gains extra attacks when they have multi-weapon fighting and Insectile just meant that they don't grant inherent extra attacks?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:19 am

Ask first if the new hands can hold weapons.

If arms can carry and use weapons, then you can MWF or PMWF with your extra arms.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:22 am

ok, I'll try that, thanks, JE.

sometimes all that's needed is a logic problem.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:28 am

Where is insectile from anyway?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:09 am

Savage Species

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:55 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Savage Species

Wow, people still use that book?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:56 am

it's got the insectile template in it, so, yes, I do.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:38 am

Multiweapon fighting attacks are granted by held weapons, not by having extra arms. It is actually perfectly possible, even easy to end up multiweapon fighting with no extra limbs at all. Boot blades and tail spike proficiency both wave the normal restriction on multiweapon fighting which is:

"Three or more hands." (MM, p. 306)

So really the only important question for whether you get multiattack is whether there are hands on the ends of those arms. If there are, you qualify for the feat and the other people need to shut up. Thereafter, you are using the multiweapon fighting rules that are entirely dependent on how many weapons you are holding.

Frankly, you're better off being a Nezumi with boot blades, armor spikes, and a tail spine. You can go to town with 6 weapons easily without ever taking a level adjustment. If you're worried about the horrible to-hit penalties remember that a wand of DMM Persistant Wraithstrike seriously costs 4,500 gold. It's unclear whether you'd need to pay Turning Attempts to activate such a wand, but since spending turning attempts you don't have is actually a listed example on the UMD skill I don't even pretend to care.

Edit: I just remembered the ultimate argument on this one:

Humans do not get extra attacks for having two hands. You don't get extra attacks for having four or twenty four hands either. However, as per page 160 of the PHB you get extra attacks for each weapon wielded in an off hand. These are completely independent of how many hands you actually have (see: armor spikes), although it is obviously easier to wield more weapon when you have more hands to do it with.

-Username17

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:05 am

That reminds me, what book are boot blades in?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:57 am

virgileso wrote:That reminds me, what book are boot blades in?

FRCS.

-Username17

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:34 pm

They were also reprinted in "Complete Scoundrel", along with crossbow bayonets.