Okay, so I'm going to do a couple of concept characters to put as examples of how far you can take Tome.
I suppose Telen, my Fighter/Bone Rider/Death Knight/Sword Wraith Paragon BBEG would be good. He's actually a little spread out, rather than hyperfocusing on one area.
Now, the Dungeonomicon Monk and a Paladin/Celestial Beacon could both go nuts with Insightful Strike.
The Monk gets his Wisdom to Reflex, Will, and Dodge bonus. With Insightful Strike, he gets it to his Attack rolls in place of Strength, and at level 16 he gets it as an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. So he gets +12-15 to his attack rolls. Twice.
Also, if he's over level 14, he could easily just *get old* and rack up the mental ability bonuses while not having any physical deterioriation.
Other notes: Reflex and Will saves are extraordinary, and get moreso with a save-buffing item.
With Wisdom determining his Dodge, he's way up there with AC. Armored in Life + 12-15 Wisdom + Natural Armor + Deflection. And then the Fighting Styles which give various defense bonuses (+4 to AC isn't bad. Neither is +4 to saves, or concealment), you're looking at a good tank.
Oh, and the status effect he inflicts are based on Wisdom, as I recall. That sucks for his enemies.
The Celestial Beacon (assuming he's a Core Paladin) would get his Wisdom to spells, as I recall. He'll have a crap-ton of spells-per-day, at least.
His thing, though, is critical hits. Using a longsword or bastard sword would give him a decent critical range to begin with, and you add Insightful Strike's buffs to that and you're looking at a crit-range of...17-20? Or is it 18-20? Along with a multiplier of x3. This will become important later on when he gets his Wisdom to Attack and Damage.
The Celestial Beacon doesn't have quite as impressive an AC or saves as the Monk, not getting his Wisdom bonus as his Dodge bonus (and having worse saves in general), but that's compensated by being able to wear heavy armor and use shields. Assuming he uses Tome Armors and shields...He'd be doing pretty well.
So, the Wisdom Stats (I'll use 32 point buy, I guess. Unless someone knows a widely-accepted system which gives better stats).
For the Monk, they are...
18 (Base)
+2 (Aasimar, I think)
+4 (Level-up, assuming he puts them all into Wisdom)
+6 (Item)
+5 (Wish)
+3 Aging (Possibly. I'm a bit vague on the Aging rules, not having dealt with them much)
..That comes out to 38 Wisdom. That's a...+14 bonus.
For the Celelestial Beacon, it comes out the same. Only, he only get +1 from Aging, and makes up for it by the +2 he gets from Celestial Beacon level 9. Celestial Beacon 9 also gives him +2 to Strength (and Charisma), mitigating a little bit of the aging. Sweetness.
So, for both of them...
+16 BAB (at least)
+14 Wisdom (Stat Synergy)
+14 Enhancement Bonus To Melee Attacks (I assume in place of weapon bonuses).
That's... and attack bonus of +44. Before taking into account the nickel-and-diming from circumstances (charging, Combat School, whatever).
Also, it occurs to me that the Paladin could do just fine with a plain sword. Or maybe masterwork. Point is, the enhancement bonus comes from his Wisdom, so why bother with making a +4 or 5 Sword of Shitty Additional Powers? Unless he did something like Holy. Or Bane against Evil Outsiders. Whatever.
Tome NPCs
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Tome NPCs
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Any reason why you're not using Iameki's Kantian paladin?
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There's some reasons--I like neatness, and the core Pally's casting is based on Wisdom (which this build will be whoring). I'd also rather use to the Celestial Beacon for what it was meant for--the Core Paladin. The Kantian Paladin is also awesome enough that it doesn't *need* the Beacon's huge bunch of abilities and buffs. And I think I'll put this up on the Wiki as an Optimized Character Build, and I want it to look closer to normal DnD to help it go down. I'm already going to be using Races of War feats for this, so they'll have some trouble swallowing THAT as it is. Which is actually why I'm going to present this as an experiment in the extreme limit you can take F&K material to.Mister_Sinister wrote:Any reason why you're not using Iameki's Kantian paladin?
Later on, I'm going to try creating some sample NPCs to go up on there. Hopefully moderately optimized. I'm dreading the spellcasters and I'll probably ask for help on them, since the vast majority of my character-building has been with non-casters.
Last edited by Maxus on Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Errol Elwes
Human Fighter 11
Str 10
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14
Gear: All enhancement bonuses are at +4. Except for his Ring of Deflection, which is +3.
Magic Mithril Suit (Dex-boosting)
Luna
Saber (read: longsword with altered appearance).
Ghost Touch.
Silent Image at-will
Other image spells, with declining uses until you get 1/day for Major Image.
Sol
Saber
Sun property.
Might have a spell-like or two based on light.
Diamond Ring (Resistance)
Sapphire Ring (Deflection)
AC:
10
10 (Armor)
7 (Dodge)
3 (Deflection)
2 (Shield)
=32 AC.
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two-Weapon Fighting
Danger Sense
Hordebreaker
Elusive Target
Lightning Reflexes
(Four more: Possibles: Whirlwind, Sharp-eyed, Acrobatic, Blitz.)
Skills:
Tumble
Balance
Bluff
Sense Motive
Intimidate
Spot
Listen
Miscellaneous knowledges/bullshit.
Notes: Errol Elwes (Named after Errol Flynn and the guy who played Westley in Princess Bride and Robin Hood in Men in Tights) is definitely a dashing hero type of guy.
His BAB is +11/+6/+6. With TWF and his usual bonuses in the mix, that's +20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15 on a full attack. All those 15's become 18's if he takes Blitz.
Human Fighter 11
Str 10
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14
Gear: All enhancement bonuses are at +4. Except for his Ring of Deflection, which is +3.
Magic Mithril Suit (Dex-boosting)
Luna
Saber (read: longsword with altered appearance).
Ghost Touch.
Silent Image at-will
Other image spells, with declining uses until you get 1/day for Major Image.
Sol
Saber
Sun property.
Might have a spell-like or two based on light.
Diamond Ring (Resistance)
Sapphire Ring (Deflection)
AC:
10
10 (Armor)
7 (Dodge)
3 (Deflection)
2 (Shield)
=32 AC.
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two-Weapon Fighting
Danger Sense
Hordebreaker
Elusive Target
Lightning Reflexes
(Four more: Possibles: Whirlwind, Sharp-eyed, Acrobatic, Blitz.)
Skills:
Tumble
Balance
Bluff
Sense Motive
Intimidate
Spot
Listen
Miscellaneous knowledges/bullshit.
Notes: Errol Elwes (Named after Errol Flynn and the guy who played Westley in Princess Bride and Robin Hood in Men in Tights) is definitely a dashing hero type of guy.
His BAB is +11/+6/+6. With TWF and his usual bonuses in the mix, that's +20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15 on a full attack. All those 15's become 18's if he takes Blitz.
Last edited by Maxus on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
For the flip side of your paladin, I think that aasimar monk/true fiend or monk/conduit of the lower planes using Zen Archery would be fun. It's basically a Wis/Cha 'arcane archer'. For skills it's all alertness and diplomacy. Angelic armor to be ironic, and to take advantage of a big sense motive skill.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Okay, answer me this:
How do you fill the requirements for Boatman of Styx? It has to be Rogue or Ninja or something, but I don't believe those classes get K (Planes) as a class skill. Unless there's speshul skills for people playing Planar games.
How do you fill the requirements for Boatman of Styx? It has to be Rogue or Ninja or something, but I don't believe those classes get K (Planes) as a class skill. Unless there's speshul skills for people playing Planar games.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
A boatman can multiclass or take a planar apprentice feat.Maxus wrote:Okay, answer me this:
How do you fill the requirements for Boatman of Styx? It has to be Rogue or Ninja or something, but I don't believe those classes get K (Planes) as a class skill. Unless there's speshul skills for people playing Planar games.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Gracias.CatharzGodfoot wrote:A boatman can multiclass or take a planar apprentice feat.Maxus wrote:Okay, answer me this:
How do you fill the requirements for Boatman of Styx? It has to be Rogue or Ninja or something, but I don't believe those classes get K (Planes) as a class skill. Unless there's speshul skills for people playing Planar games.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Okay, slight thread necromancy...
Just a couple of updates.
That Insightful Striker idea I made (Take a Full BAB Class with some features based on Wisdom, Insightful Strike, and whore wisdom all the way to level 16)...Realize you could improve it further.
Take Tome Two-Weapon Fighting, and pick up a shield bonus equal to 2 + your Wisdom Mod. Which is +13 or 14 if you've been getting all the points into Wisdom you can get.
It makes the Dungeonomicon Monk all the more insane.
I think at level 16, the Monk's AC is looking like:
10 (Base)
12 (Armored in Life)
14 (Dodge)
16 (Shield)
...Plus some Deflection and Natural armor. Maybe an extra +2 Dodge if you took Elusive Target. If you even cared about your AC at this point.
Anyway, I've got something for a Swashbuckler (Read: Dex-based Tome Melee Fighter) going.
Just a couple of updates.
That Insightful Striker idea I made (Take a Full BAB Class with some features based on Wisdom, Insightful Strike, and whore wisdom all the way to level 16)...Realize you could improve it further.
Take Tome Two-Weapon Fighting, and pick up a shield bonus equal to 2 + your Wisdom Mod. Which is +13 or 14 if you've been getting all the points into Wisdom you can get.
It makes the Dungeonomicon Monk all the more insane.
I think at level 16, the Monk's AC is looking like:
10 (Base)
12 (Armored in Life)
14 (Dodge)
16 (Shield)
...Plus some Deflection and Natural armor. Maybe an extra +2 Dodge if you took Elusive Target. If you even cared about your AC at this point.
Anyway, I've got something for a Swashbuckler (Read: Dex-based Tome Melee Fighter) going.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
How are you getting +12 dodge?
And how is Wisdom applied to your shield bonus? TWF's +16 ability - your Wis mod is your enhancement bonus to your weapon, so it applies to your shield.
Additionally, I'd be curious to see what your build looked like (I'm assuming it's full monk, because you had Armored in Life at +12)
Actually, attacks would be pretty sickening -
At 16th, base BAB of 16/11/11/11. TWF makes that 16/16/11/11/11/11/11/11, which then gets 2x wis mod attached - 14x2 so
44/44/39/39/39/39/39/39 minimum, and I'm probably missing a few, and that doesn't count anything other than BAB and Wis.
And how is Wisdom applied to your shield bonus? TWF's +16 ability - your Wis mod is your enhancement bonus to your weapon, so it applies to your shield.
Additionally, I'd be curious to see what your build looked like (I'm assuming it's full monk, because you had Armored in Life at +12)
Actually, attacks would be pretty sickening -
At 16th, base BAB of 16/11/11/11. TWF makes that 16/16/11/11/11/11/11/11, which then gets 2x wis mod attached - 14x2 so
44/44/39/39/39/39/39/39 minimum, and I'm probably missing a few, and that doesn't count anything other than BAB and Wis.
Last edited by Aktariel on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
<something clever>
It'd be for the Dungeonomicon Monk; that class may use its Wisdom bonus in place of Dexterity for Dodge Bonus and Reflex (Willow Step). I guess that Dodge should be +14 with the level 16 Monk.
But this is theoretical, as yet. You can take Insightful Strike and put every single point you can into Wisdom, and it only really kicks in at level 16. That's not exactly a build you can take from 1 to 20 as yet. I suppose you could take Fighting Styles which force saves based on your Wisdom (stun and whatever else) and use them to let the rest of the party do the killing.
But this was really an experiment to see how crazy Tome can get.
But this is theoretical, as yet. You can take Insightful Strike and put every single point you can into Wisdom, and it only really kicks in at level 16. That's not exactly a build you can take from 1 to 20 as yet. I suppose you could take Fighting Styles which force saves based on your Wisdom (stun and whatever else) and use them to let the rest of the party do the killing.
But this was really an experiment to see how crazy Tome can get.
Last edited by Maxus on Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
I'm working on a proper build for the Insightful Strike Monk.
It looks like the name of the game is getting Fighting Styles which force saves if you hit.
Your take Insightful Strike at level 1 and you put Wisdom as your highest stat. You use your Wisdom bonus for attack, Dodge bonus to AC, and Reflex saves, as well as for your Will save.
You can afford to put your strength further down and worry more about effects rather than attack.
So one of your basic fighting styles will be that one that lets you stun enemies with a DC of 10 + 1/2 Character level + Wisdom mod. You flesh out the rest with whatever, but eventually you get the one which lets the benefits of your Slam attack apply to any weapon you're using, because you're getting Two-Weapon-Fighting as a feat.
As you go up higher, you keeping whatever forces a save which works off your wisdom score. You also pick up some of the goodies, like ignoring DR/Hardness, and any Fighting Style which makes it easier to hit an enemy.
By the time you reach level 16, you have Insightful Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. Other feats could fill in with whatever you want. Lightning Reflexes, Combat School, Great Fortitude, Elusive Target...Really, at high levels, the important thing is Insightful Strike and TWF.
It looks like the name of the game is getting Fighting Styles which force saves if you hit.
Your take Insightful Strike at level 1 and you put Wisdom as your highest stat. You use your Wisdom bonus for attack, Dodge bonus to AC, and Reflex saves, as well as for your Will save.
You can afford to put your strength further down and worry more about effects rather than attack.
So one of your basic fighting styles will be that one that lets you stun enemies with a DC of 10 + 1/2 Character level + Wisdom mod. You flesh out the rest with whatever, but eventually you get the one which lets the benefits of your Slam attack apply to any weapon you're using, because you're getting Two-Weapon-Fighting as a feat.
As you go up higher, you keeping whatever forces a save which works off your wisdom score. You also pick up some of the goodies, like ignoring DR/Hardness, and any Fighting Style which makes it easier to hit an enemy.
By the time you reach level 16, you have Insightful Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. Other feats could fill in with whatever you want. Lightning Reflexes, Combat School, Great Fortitude, Elusive Target...Really, at high levels, the important thing is Insightful Strike and TWF.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!