Check out Skip's rules for grappling
and a monster's natural attacks. Its the new Pounce.
"Your next TPK brought to you by Skip Williams...."
All monsters grapple now.
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Josh_Kablack
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Re: All monsters grapple now.
SWEET!!!!!
Our party's Grapplemancers were starting to have trouble dealing damage with Summon III now that we're 9th level, but Skippy just fixed that.
Our party's Grapplemancers were starting to have trouble dealing damage with Summon III now that we're 9th level, but Skippy just fixed that.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Re: All monsters grapple now.
I don´t really see the big problem with it. Monsters already did natural weapon damage, and grappling being the opposed test it is this either worked good enough to disable a character while it was grappled, or was a waste of time anyway. All that has changed is that monsters who owned your face in a grapple before get to do so in a more swift fashion.
Druids for teh win !!!1!111
Meh.
Druids for teh win !!!1!111
Meh.
Re: All monsters grapple now.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...
A grapple check is an attack action, so Skip actually has things wrong according to the FAQ. Its MUCH worse.
If a grappling monster decides to make unarmed attacks, it gets iterative attacks that are all unarmed strikes (not natural weapons until they run out, then unarmed.)
If the grappling monster decides to make natural attacks, it get to make normal natural attacks (assuming it makes a fuull attack action.)
A monster can also decide to do both (any character can.)
Then the monster mates iterative unarmed strikes and all of its natural attacks as secondary natural weapons.
A grapple check is an attack action, so Skip actually has things wrong according to the FAQ. Its MUCH worse.
If a grappling monster decides to make unarmed attacks, it gets iterative attacks that are all unarmed strikes (not natural weapons until they run out, then unarmed.)
If the grappling monster decides to make natural attacks, it get to make normal natural attacks (assuming it makes a fuull attack action.)
A monster can also decide to do both (any character can.)
Then the monster mates iterative unarmed strikes and all of its natural attacks as secondary natural weapons.
Re: All monsters grapple now.
You're a bit off. He wants to do one of two things:
Method 1: Make the grapple action allow the full number of natural attacks as grapple attacks with the damage being each of the natural weapon damages.
or
Method 2: Give iterative grapple attacks based on BAB, with each natural weapon being one of those attacks and other attacks being unarmed attacks.
This means that a Troll with a BAB of +17 either gets:
Method 1: A Troll can take a move, then use his standard action to make a grapple and get his two claws and his bite as "grapple attacks" at his normal full attack routine bonuses and damage. Note that this is better than Pounce as you don't need to Charge.
or
Method 2: A Troll can make a move, then use his standard action to grapple and he gets grapple attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2 with one of those attacks being a claw, a claw, a bite, and one attack as an unarmed attack.
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Grappling used to be "middling good" because a grappling character couldn't cast a spell or use a weapon larger than a light weapon(screwing every fighter build I've ever seen) and couldn't move without a grapple check. This was offset by the fact that you only got one attack to damage them, meaning that it took so long to grapple a dude to death that most people got bored before that happened and so never used this rule set except to negate spells or weapon attacks.
Now, every monster with natural weapons that can make a reasonable grapple check (like every monster that fights as its main schtick or is large-sized or better) is going to totally murder PCs of all flavors(though Small-sized PCs will get murdered easier), and they will murder PCs faster than if they just made full attacks every round. Don't forget that they are also negating Dex mods on PCs, something that hurts more PCs than monsters.
Method 1: Make the grapple action allow the full number of natural attacks as grapple attacks with the damage being each of the natural weapon damages.
or
Method 2: Give iterative grapple attacks based on BAB, with each natural weapon being one of those attacks and other attacks being unarmed attacks.
This means that a Troll with a BAB of +17 either gets:
Method 1: A Troll can take a move, then use his standard action to make a grapple and get his two claws and his bite as "grapple attacks" at his normal full attack routine bonuses and damage. Note that this is better than Pounce as you don't need to Charge.
or
Method 2: A Troll can make a move, then use his standard action to grapple and he gets grapple attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2 with one of those attacks being a claw, a claw, a bite, and one attack as an unarmed attack.
-----------------
Grappling used to be "middling good" because a grappling character couldn't cast a spell or use a weapon larger than a light weapon(screwing every fighter build I've ever seen) and couldn't move without a grapple check. This was offset by the fact that you only got one attack to damage them, meaning that it took so long to grapple a dude to death that most people got bored before that happened and so never used this rule set except to negate spells or weapon attacks.
Now, every monster with natural weapons that can make a reasonable grapple check (like every monster that fights as its main schtick or is large-sized or better) is going to totally murder PCs of all flavors(though Small-sized PCs will get murdered easier), and they will murder PCs faster than if they just made full attacks every round. Don't forget that they are also negating Dex mods on PCs, something that hurts more PCs than monsters.
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Josh_Kablack
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- Posts: 5318
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: Online. duh
Re: All monsters grapple now.
As Per PHB 156, Consequences of Grappling, You only lose your Dex bonus against opponents you aren't grappling.
The section right below that (Attack Your Opponent already lets monsters make multiple natural weapon attacks while grappling. Those attacks take a -4 penalty though.
Alternately, the monster could replace each natural attack with the Damage Your Opponent option and make an opposed grapple tjeck to deal 1d4+Str or so.
What Skip is saying is that when using the Attack Your Opponent option, a monster gets to attack at Grapple Bonus + Regular mods instead of at Attack Bonus - 4.
This means that a troll who uses the Attack Your Opponent option while grappling now has an attack bonus of +14 (Troll's Grapple Mod) instead of the +5 attack bonus the PHB would seem to indicate (+9 attack bonus, -4 penalty)
The section right below that (Attack Your Opponent already lets monsters make multiple natural weapon attacks while grappling. Those attacks take a -4 penalty though.
Alternately, the monster could replace each natural attack with the Damage Your Opponent option and make an opposed grapple tjeck to deal 1d4+Str or so.
What Skip is saying is that when using the Attack Your Opponent option, a monster gets to attack at Grapple Bonus + Regular mods instead of at Attack Bonus - 4.
This means that a troll who uses the Attack Your Opponent option while grappling now has an attack bonus of +14 (Troll's Grapple Mod) instead of the +5 attack bonus the PHB would seem to indicate (+9 attack bonus, -4 penalty)
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Re: All monsters grapple now.
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1111701605[/unixtime]]
Method 1: A Troll can take a move, then use his standard action to make a grapple and get his two claws and his bite as "grapple attacks" at his normal full attack routine bonuses and damage. Note that this is better than Pounce as you don't need to Charge.
or
Method 2: A Troll can make a move, then use his standard action to grapple and he gets grapple attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2 with one of those attacks being a claw, a claw, a bite, and one attack as an unarmed attack.
Oh wow. I guess I was under the mistaken impression that a grapple 'attack' was considered the same as a normal iterative attack: They required a full attack action to use.
If not. Damn... Improved grab (+Multigrab) just got a whole lot more nasty.
Re: All monsters grapple now.
Mmm, I stand corrected. How depressing.
Is there any reason for Grapple rules to be so complicated?
Is there any reason for Grapple rules to be so complicated?