3E/4E Critical Hit Fail

[Roy]

Ok, some 6 HD beatstick. Ok, since Sundertards actually exist in this world, their weapon is made of adamantine. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Are you saying that if the possibility to have a weapon sundered exists, that everyone in the world will carry un-sunderable weapons? Surely you can see where that would lead.

The same way all Sundertardation leads. Immense stupidity and Failure. Also, lots of straw men, as apparently a small number of important people (mostly, adventurers) buying adamantine weapons is enough to change whole economies. As opposed to the player saying 'I spend 1k and take a few months off for a crafting montage to make my weapon out of adamantine to counter Sundertard douchebaggery and continue as normal'.

Also, almost everyone in this thread makes me lose hope for humanity. I say almost everyone because I haven't seen any Fail from you or from Crissa here.

[RandomCasualty2]

If Sundertards exist at all, there is absolutely no reason why every weapon of +2 equivilent or better would not be made of adamantine (and similar measures taken for other gear).

Just like since rust monsters exist, obviously every weapon must be made of wood.

[Lich-Loved]

If Sundertards exist at all, there is absolutely no reason why every weapon of +2 equivilent or better would not be made of adamantine (and similar measures taken for other gear). It's called protecting your investment and ensuring others have confidence in the longevity of your products.

Not so much. The fact is, sundering is in the game, it exists. Are all reasonable quality weapons and armor made out of adamantine currently? I thought not. It seems you dislike the fact that sundering can be done at all more than it just being a bad strategy most of the time.

And there is a reasonable reason why all weapons and armor beyond a certain point are not made of adamantine - it is expensive. Who wants to spend between 8k and 18kgp of their available WBL making unbreakable gear in the case of a sunder-battle when the same beatstick can use that gold to select from a plethora of more generally useful magic items that would preclude the need to have adamantine items in the first place?

[Lich-Loved]

Just like since rust monsters exist, obviously every weapon must be made of wood.

QFT

[Kaelik]

Not so much. The fact is, sundering is in the game, it exists. Are all reasonable quality weapons and armor made out of adamantine currently? I thought not. It seems you dislike the fact that sundering can be done at all more than it just being a bad strategy most of the time.

I do hate that sundering is an option in the game. That's because it is trivially easy to sunder non weapons. If a character uses Sunder while I am a player. I have to fear for my equipment hardcore, because the existence of sundering renders all items completely temporary and destroys any sensible chance of you having WBL.

If as a DM someone tries to use it, they will get ambushed by a bunch of Ranged sunder archers who in the surprise round destroy their +5 cloak of resistance/+6 Amulet of Con/+6 Belt or headband/ect.

Then they will understand that when all magic items have an existence of a few days at most, they will realize that sundering is bad, and we will all pretend that sundering doesn't exist.

That's if I were using actual magic items for WBL, instead of just using automatic + 1/3 level to attacks, damage, resistance, primary stat, AC.

And there is a reasonable reason why all weapons and armor beyond a certain point are not made of adamantine - it is expensive. Who wants to spend between 8k and 18kgp of their available WBL making unbreakable gear in the case of a sunder-battle when the same beatstick can use that gold to select from a plethora of more generally useful magic items that would preclude the need to have adamantine items in the first place?

Armor can't be sundered. It costs 1,000gp to craft an Adamantium X weapon. No one is spending 8k, much less 18k.

[Lich-Loved]

Armor can't be sundered. It costs 1,000gp to craft an Adamantium X weapon. No one is spending 8k, much less 18k.

To confess, I don't use sunder either, and hence I forgot about this rule. I stand corrected and thanks for reminding me of this.

[RandomCasualty2]

I do hate that sundering is an option in the game. That's because it is trivially easy to sunder non weapons.

Yeah, the rules for sundering clothing, rods, wands, staves, really suck.

If a DM wanted to be a total sadist, there's nothing from stopping his army of ranged sunderlings from destroying each and every piece of clothing you have except your armor.

And I always found it weird that you couldn't sunder someone's armor, but you could make some precise strike that just strikes an enemy's amulet or headband, without damaging the enemy in the process.

WTF?

[virgil]

Actually, it's 3000gp to make a weapon adamantine. And if all weapons are assumed to be adamantine because sundering exists, then all of those rust monsters and monsters with material DR (and aren't golems) just got alot tougher.

I'm confused as to why good is dumb if they would ever want to destroy an unholy weapon. It's literally unusable by true allies, and the only people it hurts well are good-aligned people. Are you ALSO assuming that there must be house rules in place that transmute aligned weapons into their opposite, or that all campaigns must have game-breaking artificers in place?

Please don't assume that I'm thinking that sundering is a viable option the vast majority of the time, it's the particulars of your arguments that I'm disagreeing with.

EDIT: Blech, I forgot nonmagic crafting only costs a third of the market value. Ignore that very first sentence.

[Orion]

My Apologies -- I see that I aciddentally typed "there is no magic walmart" rather than "IF there is no magic walmart," which was a hypothetical about a houseruled game.

Roy, according to RAW you're supposed to have X wealth at level Y. Potions you find and drink don't count. Neither do weapons you break. The more stuff you break, the more stuff the DM has to give out.

That is seriously how the rules work. Go read them.

Now IF we are changing the rules, Why can't we change them in such a way as to obviate wealth-by-level problems.

Incidentally, it's easy enough to find flavor reasons why not all weapons are adamantine. If magic walmart is gone, why not say that each magic item is a unique thing whose powers come as much form its history and purpose as the feats the creator took-- and/or the idiosyncratic creation process of various cultures and magical locations demand particular materials.

This is all inventions, of course, but you've completely invented this convoluted and frankly sociopathic church structure and church/paladin relationship.

I'm not asking you to agree with me -- there are many legitimate reasons to oppose sundering as a mechanic. But you aren't using them. Also, re: snark. The Den has different social rules of politeness than many other places people gather. It still has them. We are *not* "anything goes" and it is still possible to be an offensive dickwad by not respecting them. I recognize that the line can be difficult to see, but this is a space where profanity can be used as a productive tool. If you came here hoping to find a place where it was acceptable to ceaselessly insult people (as opposed to *ideas* which is mostly what we insult when it comes to other posters), you were regrettably mistaken. There really is no venue for discussion that doesn't require the conscious application of some degree of social skills.

I expect your next post will be another pile-on of smite and fail, but I'm willing to read it. That's your last shot though. If you don't demonstrate that you are capable of having an actual conversation, I am putting you on ignore and encouraging everyone else to do likewise.

[Crissa]

Also, almost everyone in this thread makes me lose hope for humanity. I say almost everyone because I haven't seen any Fail from you or from Crissa here.

I fail all the time. Just not in these threads. You should see Frank weep over my concepts.

I really wish you'd focus on the logic, 'cause you get off on these tangents of other threads and trying to argue so much you forget that we're thinking about these things, too.

Tho it took me a moment to figure out that Frank kinda blew up at you when he meant Boolean and even that was a hypothetical. I think Frank has too little time to comment here and you need to take more time before commenting here.

-Crissa

[Orion]

No, he meant Roy. Re-read Trollman's post. He calls out Roy for proposing that we *keep* the requirement that PCs of level X have Y wealth, but *ditch* the rule that the DM must take care of this happening, therefore forcing every PC to become, as Roy himself admits, a murderous psychopathic hobo.

Nobody else here, to my knowledge advocates that. I certainly don't. As long as either of those is changed -- either there is no WBL target, or the DM will help you hit it, then sundering is viable.

[Roy]

If Sundertards exist at all, there is absolutely no reason why every weapon of +2 equivilent or better would not be made of adamantine (and similar measures taken for other gear).

Just like since rust monsters exist, obviously every weapon must be made of wood.

Except for that bit about 'ferrous metals' which then cites 'steel and iron'... and not mithril and adamantine. So yeah. That monster that serves no purpose except as a Legacy Fuck You? Doesn't work on mithril or adamantine weapons and armor, aka pretty much everything that gets used anyways.

Also, one creature =/= something a large array of things can do. Fail.

If Sundertards exist at all, there is absolutely no reason why every weapon of +2 equivilent or better would not be made of adamantine (and similar measures taken for other gear). It's called protecting your investment and ensuring others have confidence in the longevity of your products.

Not so much. The fact is, sundering is in the game, it exists. Are all reasonable quality weapons and armor made out of adamantine currently? I thought not. It seems you dislike the fact that sundering can be done at all more than it just being a bad strategy most of the time.

And there is a reasonable reason why all weapons and armor beyond a certain point are not made of adamantine - it is expensive. Who wants to spend between 8k and 18kgp of their available WBL making unbreakable gear in the case of a sunder-battle when the same beatstick can use that gold to select from a plethora of more generally useful magic items that would preclude the need to have adamantine items in the first place?

Seems you're intent on relapsing into your usual Fail. Or just proving me wrong you aren't failing here. Or whatever.

Also, adamantine weapons are 3k. Shields are 2k. All the other stuff has Sundertard immunity anyways. This cost is reduced to a third that if you make it yourself. You have nothing better to do with your downtime.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist, because if it exists in any form it warps and fucks over the entire world in all sorts of fucked up ways. Players, characters, the world itself... none can survive if Sundertardation exists. And this is why it must be smited. For Great Justice.

And ultimately, if it does exist you HAVE to do those things, and more, otherwise some level 2 mook can forever gimp your super character. Back to the drawing board.

[Roy]

Actually, it's 3000gp to make a weapon adamantine. And if all weapons are assumed to be adamantine because sundering exists, then all of those rust monsters and monsters with material DR (and aren't golems) just got alot tougher.

I'm confused as to why good is dumb if they would ever want to destroy an unholy weapon. It's literally unusable by true allies, and the only people it hurts well are good-aligned people. Are you ALSO assuming that there must be house rules in place that transmute aligned weapons into their opposite, or that all campaigns must have game-breaking artificers in place?

Please don't assume that I'm thinking that sundering is a viable option the vast majority of the time, it's the particulars of your arguments that I'm disagreeing with.

EDIT: Blech, I forgot nonmagic crafting only costs a third of the market value. Ignore that very first sentence.

We've been over why rust monsters are irrelevant. Though if you insist on wanking off to them, wooden clubs are entirely free so you don't give a damn if some dumbfuck Sundertards them.

By the way, being able to Sanctify evil items isn't a house rule, it's published in a WotC book. Granted, said book is the Book of Exalted Deeds, but this is one of its few redeeming qualities. Irony intended.

As for Artificers... eh. They don't have to be there. It helps though. Despite being in an Eberron specific book, they're by no means an Eberron specific concept and game breaker wise... do you have Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Archivists? If you said yes to any of those you have no ground to stand on about banning due to overpoweredness. In fact the reason why they're so good is mostly because they steal tricks from Clerics/Druids/Wizards. Now you might not have them for some other reason, but see second sentence.

[Roy]

My Apologies -- I see that I aciddentally typed "there is no magic walmart" rather than "IF there is no magic walmart," which was a hypothetical about a houseruled game.

Roy, according to RAW you're supposed to have X wealth at level Y. Potions you find and drink don't count. Neither do weapons you break. The more stuff you break, the more stuff the DM has to give out.

Awesome. So now, in addition to the game encouraging me to be a Sundertard to reroll loot, I can now do things like spam Staff of Gate charges, as for all practical purposes I'll never run out as it will just be replaced over, and over, and over again.

Or we can just accept Sundertard = Epic Fucking Fail and disregard it. Similarly, there is a WBL allowance for consumables that amounts to about... 10%. Go over, too fucking bad. So I dunno where you're even getting the INFINITE CHARGES LULZ bit, but I ask, on behalf of the entire Den to stop smoking it.

The only other alternative is to say fuck your game.

[Roy]

Also, almost everyone in this thread makes me lose hope for humanity. I say almost everyone because I haven't seen any Fail from you or from Crissa here.

I fail all the time. Just not in these threads. You should see Frank weep over my concepts.

I really wish you'd focus on the logic, 'cause you get off on these tangents of other threads and trying to argue so much you forget that we're thinking about these things, too.

Tho it took me a moment to figure out that Frank kinda blew up at you when he meant Boolean and even that was a hypothetical. I think Frank has too little time to comment here and you need to take more time before commenting here.

-Crissa

What logic? Sundertardation is, by definition the antithesis of logic. There is no valid target to focus /on/. You can disproving it with logic, but as it is inherently illogical it will just counter with Giant Fucking Frog. Alternately you can red flag it and put it in a quarantine bag so those who haven't touched it can evade it and those that have can be cured, or at least highlighted so no one else gets infected.

[Avoraciopoctules]

On the subject of critical hits, I was experimenting with some custom monsters a while ago. I was trying to represent constructs with weak points that reduced their capacity to fight when struck rather than simply increasing damage dealt.

Crit-resistant (subtype)
For whatever reason, the creature takes less pure damage when struck in its weak points than most.

The creature is vulnerable to critical hits, but it takes half of the extra damage it would otherwise take from the critical hit. Thus, if struck with a weapon that deals x2 damage on a critical strike and deals 1d8+10 normally, the creature would take 1d8+10 + 1/2 (1d8+10) damage from a critical strike. This halving of damage also applies to sneak attacks.

Note that if this subtype is applied to something normally immune to critical hits, it overrides the immunity.

Weak Point
The rune on the forehead of an armos guardian is the source of its power. This power can be disrupted with the application of sufficient trauma.

Though the armos guardian only takes half the extra damage from critical hits and precision-based damage, it counts as slowed for 2 rounds if such an attack deals 15 or more damage.

[virgil]

It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity.

Looks like they eat adamantine just fine to me (the ability itself continues on to state that metal is destroyed, not ferrous-only.

And this still grants great resistance to all creatures with material DR, because everybody is using nonmagical wooden clubs or adamantine weapons.

The BoED would explain why I haven't heard of the sanctification rule before, since I don't like that book to a very large extent. I'll try to find out more on that part later.

Artificers break the game by having their crafting abilities cycle into ever larger magic items without being limited by XP gain, and are more fundamental to the class than using calling spells to get efreet to cast Wish. This is on top of the fact that they can, by 9th level, just have infinite charges on all of their magic items, and everyone in the party has beyond their WBL in the most optimized and dumpster-dived fashion possible. Compensatory wealth gain helps you recover between adventures, so you're still capped at WBL within a single adventure; which the artificer gets to ignore.

EDIT: Redeeming requires respending everything except the gold (you know, the important part). That's a crap process and I don't know why you think it's actually worth doing in favor of just sundering it and being done with it; because now there's no chance of someone interrupting the enchanting process and getting the unholy weapon back.

[Kaelik]

And this still grants great resistance to all creatures with material DR, because everybody is using nonmagical wooden clubs or adamantine weapons.

What material resistances are there?

Adamantium? They have Adamantium weapons.

Cold Iron? Backup weapon, because no one fucking uses it ever.

Silver? Silver Sheen, because no one uses silver weapons.

Seriously, the only current existing weapons used by PCs ever is cold iron weapons that get hit with chained GMW, and Adamntium +1 other stuff that also gets hit with the GMW, and regular +1 other stuff weapons with GMW.

So basically, if you do allow sundering of weapons as a tactic, then you just add 1000gp to all main weapon costs.

Of course, your +6 str belt still gets sundered at the beginning of every fight. So yeah, it turns out you find your entire WBL at the end of every encounter, because it all gets destroyed in every fight.

[Crissa]

So you don't like Zorro, we get it, Roy, I don't understand why you have to go on about it at length.

-Crissa

[virgil]

Silver sheen and backup cold iron, if you use such, still require that you waste an action in combat to make yourself viable against the threat. Ultimately, forcing them to waste actions in the beginning of the fight can make all the difference, almost like having a preemptive sunder that they don't get a chance to resist or dodge.

As for the cold iron backup weapon, you could potentially fight in a weaker manner than the opponent's DR depending on how you've enchanted your primary weapon.

Once again, I'm not arguing for sundering being an awesome tactic (it's not, it's nearly always a terrible one), I'm arguing against Roy's fail-laced arguments.

[Kaelik]

Silver sheen and backup cold iron, if you use such, still require that you waste an action in combat to make yourself viable against the threat. Ultimately, forcing them to waste actions in the beginning of the fight can make all the difference, almost like having a preemptive sunder that they don't get a chance to resist or dodge.

You are missing the point. It isn't that backup weapon and silversheen are things you use because of sunder.

It's that even if Sunder is completely unallowed and physically impossible, you still won't have a magical cold iron or silver weapon.

[virgil]

Magical cold iron weapons cost just as much to craft, and less to buy than adamantine, so I'm not understanding this. As for silver weapons, it's cheaper than both, and doesn't require you to pull out the sheen and waste an action.

[Caedrus]

Roy, you think that at the very least, while you're busy shouting BS like "(word I made up for anyone who disagrees with my rather arbitrary position on sundering) is, by definition, the antithesis of logic," you could try not filling several pages with it so fast so that we're looking at 3-5 of your posts in a row? Basic netiquette would suggest that you try to avoid double posts over the course of a few minutes or hours. Or triple, quadruple, or quintuple posts, repeatedly, over a similarly short time frame. I know you like your internet memes, so here's a link for you. Stop doing this: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warrio ... buster.htm and this: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warrio ... styper.htm .

Thanks.

[Murtak]

Things you missed:
- A credible percentage of opponents get useless without weapons.
- Not everyone with an unholy sword is in fact a fighter.
- Not everyone has quickdraw and a second identical unholy sword.
- Swords can in fact be broken after the fight is over.

Nonsensical blathering, refusing to even attempt to address a single point.

Again: Swords can in fact be broken after the fight is over. There is not one single reason to continously state how stupid sundering weapons is (of course carefully skipping the useful examples). Except of course that your whole "argument" falls apart the very second you look at out of combat sundering. Yeah, Glitterdust is good, I get it. But fighters can't cast it, and sundering, say, a giant's sword is one of the few ways they will actually get to contribute to a fight. But that isn't the point. The point is, there is no need to sunder items in combat if you are doing it to get rid of evil items, which was the entire fucking point of this exercise.

Breaking it after the fight is over eliminates any and all concern about the guy using it against you, which means you're just being a douchebag to YOURSELF.

No, it means you get rid of a sword that only evil people can use. Can you tell me one reason why our example paladin wouldn't do it? Not you, not the player, the character. In the game world.

If he's lying, Detect Lies and similar are easily fooled. If he's telling the truth but is wrong divinations work better but still can fail or be tricked without too much difficulty.

You divine the sword of course. To paraphrase your own words: I don't feel the need to point out the blatantly obvious.

Of course, it could be a sword with an evil (but temporary) spell on it, similar to how you can make anyone detect as evil by casting something like Wrack on them.

Detect for three rounds and you get separate auras for each effect. Next time, read the spell before posting bullshit.

I'd say them not getting revived is an in game decision.

Who is talking about revival, apart from you. Again: What is to stop your players from suiciding on every decision they don't like? They roll up new characters and do the adventure again. How do you stop them? Bonus question: You originally stated that destroying evil items let's them "reroll the loot" if you later compensate them. How so? Who controls the loot? You do. Also, why do you feel the need to fuck them over by handing them a sword their characters can't use. Do you think railroading them into delivering the sword to the temple is good DMing?

If he can't trust his own church or his own ability to get it to a church, he sanctifies the damn thing himself, as stated.

Yeah, using optional rules from a non-core book, which takes several days, not to mention experience and spells which may not be handy. Oh, and he needs the prerequisite level and feats. In other words: no.

[Kaelik]

Magical cold iron weapons cost just as much to craft, and less to buy than adamantine, so I'm not understanding this. As for silver weapons, it's cheaper than both, and doesn't require you to pull out the sheen and waste an action.

Uh? WTF?

First of all, in this supposed world of no sunder, here are our choices:

1) Regular weapon:
Good-cheapest.
Bad-overcomes no DR.
2) Adamantium:
Good-breaking walls, overcomes construct DR/stoneskin/stuff like that. Second most common type of DR.
Bad-Costs 1000gp over standard. (or 900 whatever).
3) Silver:
Good-overcomes wereshit DR, some outsiders. Least common type of DR.
Bad-damage penalty against all enemies, negligible cost increase.
4) Cold Iron:
Good-overcomes Fey/Warlock/outsider DR. Most common type.
Bad-scaling shittastic costs. +1 costs extra 2000gp (so +1 Adamantium that is crafted and then paid an NPC to enchant costs less than a Cold Iron done the same). +10 costs 199,000gp more then an Adamantium weapon of same.

Please explain given those choices, ignoring 'I am Werewolf Hunter, the werewolf hunter. I hunt Werewolves.' why anyone would choose to make a magical sword of anything silver or cold iron.

It's frankly retarded to use Cold Iron for your +1 Holy Flaming Icy sword. And Silver is stupid, but not as stupid, since it's giving you -1 damage against all enemies ever in return for overcoming the least common DR, when you can use a buff round or a transmuting weapon to overcome it even better.