The awesomeness of the 4.0E fighter.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, while the fighter isn't the best class in the game, I find that fighters have the best collection of divergent builds that are actually useful. Behold, a quick primer:

Maul Fighters: Even just in the basic book, they did more damage than the apparent striker, the rogue. However, there's no need to play them anymore. Why? Because they've been replaced with...

Battlerager Hammer Brother: Ridiculously tough to the point of being broken at low levels if your DM decides to humor you; merely overpowered if your DM doesn't but still plays by the rules. A Battlerager Fighter can also load up on an alarming number of stunlocks, second only to actual rogues. And they still do freakish amounts of damage.

Dragonborn Spear and Shield Fighters: They are Iron Vanguard fighters who also take the Draconic Arrogance feat. They also make good 'defenders' despite the role being a warm pile of piss because Shield Push is one of the best 4.0E feats ever printed and almost makes me think that the 'defender' role means something. The big feature of this build is that they get to use the At-Will Tide of Iron, with which their Draconic Arrogance and L16 Iron Vanguard ability they do the second most damage of all of the fighter variants (since they do an additional x2 strength and x2 constitution with their at-will), still have the benefits of using a shield, AND get to have fun with Polearm Momentum. They also combine with Battlerager Fighters fairly well, depending on whether or not you want Weapon Mastery 3 levels late--since after all practically every fighter takes Eternal Defender anyway and they just swap over to wielding glaives one-handed, obviating the only weakness of the build.

Tempest Fighter: They are only barely outdamaged by rangers and that's by the slimmest of margins. In return they get much more durability and better expansion options, as fighter is a mandatory multiclass for melee rogues--not so for tempest fighters. Son of Mercy/Eladrin Blade/Pit Fighter rangers also have the luxury of having the best NADs of their buddies.

Warpriest Polearm Fighter: They have Polearm Momentum + Warpriest Challenge + Combat Superiority + Heavy Blade Opportunity + Polearm Gamble. This combination of abilities makes it practically impossible for a foe to get near them. They also have the At-Will Footwork Lure which when combined with Polearm Momentum will knock foes prone pretty much all of the time.

Net + Shield Fighters: They have two things going for them--the feat Deft Hurler style whereupon when they use the 'Cleave' At-Will they also get to make a ranged basic attack that doesn't draw OAs. They also get use of that new At-Will from 'Martial Heroes' that knocks a foe prone on a hit vs. fortitude. There's a feat called 'dragging flail' where when you knock someone prone with a flail you get to slide them one square. There are magic items that increase the distance you get to slide the foe. Net fighters also get access to a nice variety of 'slow' effects, too, which allow them to hold off a variety of foes since they do this on ranged attacks.

Fighters apparently make the best defenders because they hand out such freakish amounts of damage that any smart monster will target them first. But they have reasonably high defenses, too. The tempest fighter actually is the squishiest out of all of the fighter variants and they're only about 0 to 3 points in AC behind a paladin depending on the PP and armor they take. In returd they do buttloads more damage.

This obviously makes them overpowered. Great class design, WotC.

[Caedrus]

What's annoying is when people assume this means balance, because they were weak in some other, totally separate game. In reality it is more comparable to, say, how Kirby was changed from Super Smash Bros to Super Smash Bros Melee (where a character is either overpowered or underpowered and the devs overreact too far in the other direction. In which case you just end up with an element that is unbalanced in the opposite direction, and leaving the game no more balanced), whereas a good balance change would be like the change of Samus from SSB to SSBM (became competitive *and* more interesting to play, but didn't overpower the other useful characters).

[Aktariel]

Slightly oftopic:

Starting a 4ed campaign. What would a battlerager hammer brother build look like?

Also, what would a good wizard build look like?

[Username17]

Wizard: You are a Gnome. You have Orb Mastery. Your at-wills are Cloud of Daggers and Ray of Frost. Your Daily is Sleep. You have another known spell but t doesn't matter what it is because you will never ever prepare it.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Aktariel: Battlerager Hammer Brothers take on a variety of forms. The first decision is which end of the sliding scale of damage vs. durability you want to be. If you want damage, pick a Goliath (PHB2), a Minotaur (they got errata'd, unfortunately, to lose Oversized Weapon), a Warforged, or a Monster Manual Orc. If you want durability, pick a Dwarf. Dwarves have access to the Dwarven Stoneblood feat, which multiplies the hp they get from Battlerager Vigor by x1.5--this means that a CON 22 dwarf with Improved Vigor and Dwarven Stoneblood recovers 12 temporary hit points every time they're hit with a melee or close attack. This is before we get into generic dwarven silliness like the ability to blow through a second wind as a minor action and grabbing a feat that lets you use two second winds in an encounter.

The downside to this is that being a dwarf and using constitution-focused weapons will cause your attack bonus to plummet.

Anyway, your second choice from here is whether you want to specialize in hammers or axes. Axes do more spike damage from paragon and beyond due to the Deadly Axe feat; Hammers have a higher base damage due to Hammer Rhythm. I like hammers better, personally, because they have better weapon powers especially starting in paragon tier. But if you're just going to stay in heroic tier it's pretty much a wash. On the other hand, specializing in axes gives you access to the Urgosh (Adventurer's Vault) which is a combination Spear and Axe weapon; spears have some very nice expansion options associated with them, most notably the Polearm Momentum feat. However it's rather difficult to qualify for this feat as a STR/CON fighter without sinking one of your stats.

But anyway, here's what a typical Hammer Brother build looks like:

L17 Dwarven Battlerager Fighter / Barbarian / Dreadnaught

Stats: 18 (22) STR, 16 (20) CON, 13 (14) WIS


Notable Feats:
Weapon Expertise, Hammer Rhythm, Dwarven Weapon Training, Reckless Attacker, Armor Proficiency: Platemail, Dwarven Stoneblood, Improved Vigor, Berserker's Fury, Novice Power, Expert Power

At-Will Powers: Brash Assault, Crushing Surge
Encounter Powers: Inexorable Advance, Storm of Blades, Anvil of Doom, Come and Get It
Daily Powers: Agonizing Assault, Unyielding Avalanche, Stone Bear Rage
Utility Powers: Boundless Endurance, Pass Forward, Blood Iron

Notable Items:
L13 +3 Bloodclaw Mordenkrad: The Bloodclaw weapon lets them set fire to 3 hp for an extra 9 points of damage on a hit.
L14 +3 Salubrious GithPlate Armor: The salubrious property gives you a +2 bonus to AC for a round every time you regain hit points. This character always has a regeneration stance available.
L16 Iron Armbands of Power: Gives the character a +4 bonus to damage when using melee weapon attacks.
L10 Antipathy Gloves: An enemy must spend 1 extra square of movement to enter a square adjacent to you. This disallows shifting around you and will sometimes prevent slowed enemies from entering or stepping away from your square.
L14 +3 Cloak of Distortion: A ranged attack against you from more than 5 squares away takes a -5 penalty to the attack roll.

Note: The character is going to make no more magical item purchases/acquisitions in paragon tier, instead going to grab as many Rings of Personal Gravity as he can. For the one encounter out of a five-encounter workday that he can't pop a Ring of Personal Gravity that's what Unyielding Avalanche is for.

Anyway, this character's typical tactics is that every encounter they open up with a rage or stance that gives regeneration to make them even more ridiculously invulnerable (both for the Salubrious Armor property and for the extra hit points). They then start a lockdown by popping a Ring of Personal Gravity so that the enemy has a bitch of a time getting away from then. And from then on they start a grindfest THAT THEY WILL WIN. Why?

First of all, they're in fullplate armor with an additional +2 bonus from their magical armor property. Secondly, their combination of Improved Vigor, Battlerager Vigor, and Dwarven Stoneblood means that every time they get hit in melee they recover 10 temporary hit points. Crushing Surge lets them regain temporary hit points when they hit and these stack with other temporary hit points. Their various silly regeneration stances gives them an extra 7 hit points per round. And if an enemy manages to grind their way past this then they pop their Dreadnaught utility power and gain Resist 5 damage on top of this. They can only be reliably hurt in a very specific way--namely, standing 2 to 4 squares away from them and plinking away with ranged attacks that target reflex or fortitude--but then our dwarf can just move up to them and lock them.

That's pretty much how Hammer Brother Battleragers play out. People have been complaining about them more than any other fighter variant--and considering that they're flying low for Tempest Fighters and Polearm Fighters that's quite an accomplishment.

[Parthenon]

Wait, isn't your description of HBBs exactly what people expect Defenders to be like? Focus on the main threat and force them to face off mano-a-mano, stopping them from attacking others and being able to endure their attacks even if they don't do much damage to them?

So why complain if HBBs define the Defender role and be the only build that actually really does it?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Wait, isn't your description of HBBs exactly what people expect Defenders to be like? Focus on the main threat and force them to face off mano-a-mano, stopping them from attacking others and being able to endure their attacks even if they don't do much damage to them?

So why complain if HBBs define the Defender role and be the only build that actually really does it?

Because the HBB gets their mojo off of magical items, not their class features and feats. The Antipathy Gloves and Ring of Personal Gravity is what makes them sticky, not their class features/powers.

The HBB's stickiness runs completely counterintuitive to how the role is supposed to work and how it actually performs.

[sake]

Also, what would a good wizard build look like?

A splatbook-upped wizard:

You are a Deva. You have Orb of Imposition. Your at-wills are Illusory Ambush, and either Cloud of Daggers or Storm Pillar. Your level 1 Daily will be Sleep, your level 29 Daily will be Legion's Hold, your other Dailys and Encounters are anything that has the term 'save ends' in them.

At Heroic Tier you take the Cleric multiclass feat, implement focus: orb, Enlarge Spell and the stupid floating hand familar feat. (you might also take the leather proficenty feat, but who cares about your ac really)

At Paragon you take the Divine Oracle Paragon Path and the Improved OoI, Psychic Lock, Second Implement, (either orb of deception or tome of readiness) and Dual Implements feats.

At Epic, you go Demigod, take the Arcane Mastery and Spell Accuracy feats.

Grats you are the most cookie-cutter Orbizard possible, which means you win D&D.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Don't go Divine Oracle. Go Wizard of the Spiral Tower. They let you use longswords as an appropriate MC implement.

In the Adventurer's Vault, there are these things called Cunning weapons which add a saving throw penalty to all of your spells (not just from OoI) of 1 + X per tier. So discard a penny, receive a quarter.

There's also another feat in Arcane Power that lets Eladrin use longswords as implements, obviating the need to go Wizard of the Spiral Tower. However, I don't remember if this feat still lets you use your wizardly implement mastery through it. If it does then go with Divine Oracle again.

There's also some dumbass White Lotus power (I need to look it us) that as a level one daily you can cast magic missile as a minor action for the rest of the encounter. So by loading up on a bunch of salves of power, you can have striker-level damage, too. Dumb shits who write this game.

But anyway, yeah. The ideal party in D&D is a team of Orb Wizards backed up by a Warlord / Swordmage / Battle Captain / Warmaster. The Battle Captain propels their to-hit bonus into the stratosphere and also grants his teammates extra turns with Guileful Switch, Sudden Assault, and Spring the Trap and uses various stupid powers to further sink an enemies' saving throws.

[Aktariel]

So, Osariel (a Deva Wizard 1 with Orb of Imposition) currently looks like this:
Stats, in order: 15, 16, 17, 20, 20, 16
Feats: Implement Expertise [Orb]
Powers: Illusory Terrain, Cloud of Daggers, Icy Terrain, Sleep

Next level: Feat: Enlarge Spell. Utility Power: Shield.

Ability Score Increases as he levels go solely into Intelligence.


Also:

ELADRIN SWORD WIZARDRY
Prerequisite: Dex 13, eladrin, wizard
Benefit: You can wield a longsword as an imple-
ment when using wizard powers. Your longsword
adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and
damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a
property (if applicable) when used as an implement.
You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to
the attack roll when you use your longsword as an
implement.
If you have any feats or class features that apply a
benefit when you wield a wand, you can also apply
these benefits when you wield a longsword. If such
benefits apply to attacks, they apply only when you
use the longsword as an implement for a wizard
attack power.

It looks like you can use class features through it, but only if they apply to wands. So no Orb of Imposition, unfortunately.

[sake]

Never actually read Adventurer's Vault. Could Cunning Weapon be applied to a staff or does it have to be a martial weapon or something?

In any case, why not skip the Eladrin sword crap, burn a feat on Arcane Implement proficiency to grab the swordmage's light or heavy blade implement, and dual wield a Cunning Weapon and an Orb?

I'm still iffy on the White Lotus magic missile stuff as being worth a crap, no matter how much damage it adds. Perhaps if it didn't require you to actually have magic missile in the first place or if they ever add a 'You can choose an extra at will power' feat to 4e.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The cunning weapon property can be applied to staves, but the property only functions if the stave is being used as a weapon, not an implement.

So you need to go Wizard of the Spiral Tower and grab a Cunning Longsword.


But as sake pointed out, you don't actually need to use your orb to land the to use the Orb of Imposition class feature; so you can indeed just grab a Swordmage Cunning Weapon and go to town. If your DM forces you to use it (and if he does, he's an enormous cock since the writeups of the PHB says that you don't) isn't there some dumbass Arcane Power feat that lets you use two implements at one?

If we're doing that, then I must point out that there's a magical item in the Adventurer's Vault (an orb, specifically) called the Orb of Fickle Fate. What it does is that as a minor action--that doesn't require you to use an orb for an attack I might add--you impose a -2 penalty to saving throws on a target and a buddy gets a +2 bonus to saving throws (save ends).

Or you could just grab an Orb of Imposition (which also doesn't require you to actually wield the orb). When you use the OoI feature it increases the penalty bestowed on your target by an amount equal to the enhancement bonus of the orb. Awesome.

I'm still iffy on the White Lotus magic missile stuff as being worth a crap, no matter how much damage it adds.

It's actually pretty useful at around levels 5 to 12, before you start getting a bunch of items that let you recycle your dailies (which is going to be Sleep) and lets you permanently 'lock' a foe. You can just swap it out when you get past that breakpoint.

Would I take it over Stinking Cloud, Bigby's Icy Grasp, or Web? I wouldn't. But if one of my party members wanted it I wouldn't stop them from snagging it, unlike, say, Fireball.

[Aktariel]

How is a Swordmage Cunning Longsword different from a regular cunning longsword? You're still taking Weapon Proficiency: Longsword and going Wizard of the Spiral Tower either way...

In this case, you're not actually swinging with the sword, you're holding it in your hand, it adds its enhancement bonus to your attack & damage, and you can use the OoI power... all without ever having to "attack" with it.


EDIT:
Cunning Weapon Level 8+
Lvl 8 +2 3,400 gp Lvl 23 +5 425,000 gp
Lvl 13 +3 17,000 gp Lvl 28 +6 2,125,000 gp
Lvl 18 +4 85,000 gp
Weapon: Any melee
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d8 damage per plus
Property: Against any effect delivered with this weapon that a
save can end, the target takes a –2 penalty to saving throws.
Level 18 or 23: –3 penalty to saving throws.
Level 28: –4 penalty to saving throws.

So, since the effect has to be "delivered" with the weapon, do I actually have to hit people with it? I'm so confused.


EDIT 2: And what the heck is the difference between holding an implement and using an implement? Either way, implements are there primarily to add their enhancement bonus to your spells - you can't really "attack" with them.

Normally, you add the Enhance Bonus to both attack and damage (according to the PHB).

DUAL IMPLEMENT SPELLCASTER
Prerequisite: Dex 13, any arcane class
Benefit: When you use an arcane attack power
and you are wielding a magic implement in each
hand, you can add the offhand implement's enhance-
ment bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this
power, and you must be capable of wielding both
implements, to gain this benefit.

So in this case, you would add Primary Orb +4 to both attack and damage, and Secondary Orb +4 to damage, for a total of +4/+8 ??


EDIT 3: And since I want to have +4 cunning weapons in both hands, I add +4/+8 to attack/damage to powers with the implement keyword, but still only -2 to saves? Or it it -4, since I'm "delivering" the "effect" (casting the spell) using both of them?


Whoever thought of using EBD for an RPG can suck me off, because he obviously likes the taste of dick so much.

[Orion]

Dual Implement works like the TWF feat -- it gives you a bonus for holding an extra implement, it doesn't mean that you are actually *using* the implement.

At least that's what the text seems to say, god knows what the FAQs and errata will make of it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

How is a Swordmage Cunning Longsword different from a regular cunning longsword? You're still taking Weapon Proficiency: Longsword and going Wizard of the Spiral Tower either way...

In this case, you're not actually swinging with the sword, you're holding it in your hand, it adds its enhancement bonus to your attack & damage, and you can use the OoI power... all without ever having to "attack" with it.

Swordmages can use Longswords as implements--the FAQ for 4E states that weapons used as implements confer the enhancement, critical, and property lines of the enhancement for spells.

However, the big question is whether you can use the Orb of Imposition class feature when you didn't actually use an orb to layer down the spell. My answer is a big empathic 'yes', obviating the need to go Wizard of the Spiral Tower in the first place. Though I know more than a few players who say no. If your DM does say 'no' then you need to go WotST. If not you can choose some other PP. Divine Oracle is a really nice one for the rerolls. Blood Mage hands out another Save Ends area stun, 9 levels before Legion's Hold.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Also, you need to get your ass a Phrenic Crown.

What does that do? Well, I'm glad you asked:

Lvl 7 2,600 gp
Lvl 17 65,000 gp
Lvl 27 1,625,000 gp
Item Slot: Head
Property: When you use a power against Will defense, the target (or targets) takes a –1 penalty to saving throws against any ongoing effect of that power.
Level 17: –2 penalty.
Level 27: –3 penalty.

Awesome.

[Aktariel]

Swordmages can use Longswords as implements--the FAQ for 4E states that weapons used as implements confer the enhancement, critical, and property lines of the enhancement for spells.

My question still stands. Do you want me to take a level of Swordmage, or what? How do I get the "longsword as implement" class power otherwise?

Also, you need to get your ass a Phrenic Crown.

I thought crowns were worn on the head.

[Kaelik]

Aktariel, I think you don't understand how 4e works.

1) I don't think you even want dual implement spellcaster, I think you want something else that lets you use a second implement not at the same time.

2) You can't take a level in Swordsage. All your levels are Wizard levels. You take a feat which magically makes you a swordsage, thus allowing you to use the cunning sword as an implement.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I thought crowns were worn on the head.

Says who?

[RandomCasualty2]

I personally like the orb of inescapeable consequences as a magic implement, Its basically just an awesome auto-stun item.

[Aktariel]

Aktariel, I think you don't understand how 4e works.

Not fully, no.

1) I don't think you even want dual implement spellcaster, I think you want something else that lets you use a second implement not at the same time.

Why?

2) You can't take a level in Swordsage. All your levels are Wizard levels. You take a feat which magically makes you a swordsage, thus allowing you to use the cunning sword as an implement.

Yes. I forgot about this. the DM is like, "we're not doing crappy multiclassing, we're doing 3E style MC, because it's better!" IE you just take "class levels" or whatever.

Says who?

I never said you couldn't. You just said I needed to get my ass a crown, and I thought it might look better on my head, since that was what is was designed for.

Also, that looks like a hat.

[Orion]

Yes. I forgot about this. the DM is like, "we're not doing crappy multiclassing, we're doing 3E style MC, because it's better!" IE you just take "class levels" or whatever.

That doesn't make sense. At all. I literally have no idea how he imagines that would function, as the rules system doesn't support it in any way.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Fucking--! Wasn't this supposed to be about the fighter at one point?

I need to create a list of character build tiers one day. They go something like this:

God Tier: These classes can take down elite/solo monsters in one round if they expend a good portion of their mojo, can do group stuns, or just kick your ass and take names.

Half-Elven Avengers: See tempest fighters and melee rangers.
Battle Captain Tactical Warlords: They hand out freakishly large bonuses to attack and defense and have several ways of generating a cheese loop of extra attacks.
Tempest Fighters: Eternal Seeker Tempest Fighters can win entire combat sessions by themselves.
Melee Rangers: Same.
Yogi Hat Rangers: because they play exactly like melee rangers but are also invincible.
Battlerager Fighters: they're an odd case. They're God Tier only if the party averages at Top Tier or below because they can get into a slugfest with a Tarrasque and come out on top without even really trying.
Orbizard: They can group stunlock and you can't get out of it. They're the top of the heap.

Top Tier:
Ruthless Ruffian Rogues: They can have three encounter powers that stun, jackasses. Or if they take Reserve Manuever they can have three encounter powers that stun and one that dazes.
Warpriest Polearm Fighters: They can negate a lot of attacks without even caring. Unfortunately, they have no real answer for monsters that teleport so that knocks them down a tier.
Archer Rangers: They do buttloads of damage but unfortunately lack in the status effect powers of their melee cousins. Melee Rangers can (and should) have three dailies and an encounter power that stuns.

And so-on. Or maybe not.

[Kaelik]

Why?

You know what, I'm totally wrong. What you actually want is using two at once. Then you can have a +X cunning sword (as high as you can get it given current level) and you'll use the item crafting rituals to get a +1 Orb of continuance, +1 orb of whatever, and +1 Cunning weapon. And then you'll use the daily abilities but always use the same implement for attack roll (the only thing that matters) so it will cost less.

Yes. I forgot about this. the DM is like, "we're not doing crappy multiclassing, we're doing 3E style MC, because it's better!" IE you just take "class levels" or whatever.

Well you should tell him not to. The thing is, as power progression goes, every class in 4e is a full caster. So any multiclass were you use actual levels is just bad.

A level 15 Fighter/15 Barbarian in 4e would be a paragon character with more HP and higher attack bonus. That's it. A level 22 Fighter would be able to wipe the floor with him.

Tell him to use the feats because with all the splat stuff, you can actually use them to some effect with some characters. But not character is ever going to want to blow actual levels on other classes level 1 dailies.

Even if there was some way through crazy bullshit to actually figure out what powers/epic destinies/paragon paths a level 15 Fighter/15 Barbarian actually had, it would still be like being a level 10 Cleric/10 Wizard in 3e. Really fucking dumb.

[Lago PARANOIA]

4E multiclassing is never going to work, because 1) the classes are completely frontloaded and 2) class features and powers aren't balanced evenly.

For example, right now the wizard has godawful class features. If you're not going to use an Orb of Imposition (and I don't think you should) you'll probably never notice them. On the other hand, the paladin has awesome class features and yet ranks near the bottom of the classes tier.

Perversely, the power structure is completely condusive to multiclassing in 4E, because there's no such thing as caster levels or whatever. You have to trade out a power to get another of equal or lower level. However, the class powers are not balanced evenly. For one, a lot of powers require a class feature to get the most use out of them. Wizard is pretty much a mandatory multiclass for Warlocks but Wizards wouldn't touch warlocks with a ten-foot pole. For two, going back to the class feature thing, some classes just have better powers than others. Everyone wants fighter and warlord powers. They just kick your little ass and make you come crawling back for more. No one wants avenger or swordmage powers; they just suck monkey fuck.

Finally, the level assignment of powers just means fuckall. For example, Storm of Blades (13 Barbarian) gives you a number of attacks equal to your Constitution. Guileful Switch is an encounter power that gives you or a buddy another turn and it's level 6 warlord power. Meanwhile there's a shitty fucking power called Godstrike which is basically a L29 daily that does 7W damage--and nothing else. Meteor Swarm (Wizard 29) will probably do less damage than Flame Orb (Wizard 1). That's fucking horseshit.