Dumpshock Mods are Douchebags

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Every so often, someone asks why it is that I, a former author for Shadowrun, don't really post on Dumpshock - the semi-official Shadowrun board. The answer is because the moderators there are raging douchebags and have a personal hate-on for me that is inappropriate and clouds their ability to do their job. It's annoying, it's fucked, and I don't like dealing with it.

As part of finishing up and posting up my work on the board game, I dusted off my old Dumpshock account and posted it there too. While I was there, I discussed some of the things that were good and bad about a couple of books and chapters that - get this: I didn't work on. No personal attacks, no secret information, no special rage-ons, no profanity. Just a couple of considered book reports, mentioning good and bad. And I got a warning mail from the mods:

Caine Hazen, a Mod wrote:The freelancer material should be kept behind closed doors. I know you aren't one anymore, but we expect the freelancers to follow certain codes of conduct related to their NDAs and request that they keep their freelancer drama elsewhere. Let this serve as a final warning for this type of post. You are down to your last lifeline at this point, so if you wish to continue to freely post on DS, you will need to re-read the TOS, and rethink the posts and discussions you are having on these forums. You should note that your posts are being watched and reviewed carefully by the moderation team.

Thank you
The DS moderation team

So what the fuck, right? I mean... I hadn't violated the terms of service of anything. I hadn't even been flirting with the NDA on anything because I was talking about material that I never saw in prepublished form and never signed an NDA in reference to. Needless to say, I called attention to this. A different Mod further expounded on their reasoning:

Bull, a Mod wrote:Frankly, there's nothing really top secret going on with freelancer discussions, outside of unannounced products and plot lines. But it's incredibly tacky and amateurish for anyone that either is or has been a freelancer to be involved in discussions that are doing little except tear apart decisions made by those in charge, or ripping up the work of other writers and freelancers. It doesn't lead to constructive discussion about Shadowrun. And we don't want it on Dumpshock. Period.

Yes, you heard it right. If someone was ever a writer for Shadowrun, they aren't allowed to criticize any part of any Shadowrun product ever printed or which ever will be printed. Except... that's obviously not enforced. Except against me.

And that, sirs and madams, is why I very rarely look at anything on Dumpshock. Because the moderators are assholes who carry a personal grudge against me despite the fact that I never actually did anything to them personally.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:49 pm

Do you have any examples of someone else talking about different material and no one caring?

Because that would be the shit icing on the cake.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:53 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Do you have any examples of someone else talking about different material and no one caring?

Because that would be the shit icing on the cake.

Well how about the fact that in the linked conversation, another ex-author was also participating. And he was talking about his own work in addition to other works. He says on the thread that he didn't get a warning about it.

-Username17

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:25 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Well how about the fact that in the linked conversation, another ex-author was also participating. And he was talking about his own work in addition to other works. He says on the thread that he didn't get a warning about it.

-Username17

I don't see a link to that conversation?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:49 pm

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... 6436&st=25

The key knowledge to have is that "demonseed elite" is Jason Levine, the author of the Hong Kong section of Runner Havens and the Astral Space Chapter in Street Magic.

-Username17

Lich-Loved · Post by **Lich-Loved** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:45 pm

I am not going to get into what can and can't be posted on Dumpshock, but what I can tell you is that the Silk Road supplement idea is exactly the kind of SR book I was looking for and could never find. The ones I did review were so bad it spooked me from buying any supplements; I always had a suspicion that the material would somehow suck in some subtle way because it was tainted by the same writing/editing process that created such crappy source books.

I would buy Silk Road and others like it on the spot.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri May 29, 2009 12:23 am

Mean acceleration of 2 Gs on those pulsed nuclear rockets, max of 4. Both negative and positive, of course.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:08 am

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... t&p=807940

Read before they remove.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:15 am

Every forum has its own 'personality' created by moderating decisions that don't comply with the written down rules, because the written down rules tend to be a joke.

Bull wants a positive uplifting discussion of shadow run which is at odds with Franks 'throw down' approach to debate. It's just not going to work, ever, really.

In essence there are two ways of conducting negotiations - and it is very applicable to here - competitive and collaborative. Frank almost always uses competitive in RPG discussions, however it can come off as adversarial. Because it tends to be adversarial/polarizing, it can cause conflicts if the vision of the founders is not to have that sot of adversarial confrontation.

Bull doesn't, and much prefers a low key approach that confines itself to passive aggressive behaviours and preferably collaborative negotiations. This limits the effectiveness of the forum as one entire mode of discussion is ruled out, but bull is willing to pay that price for his personal reasons.

I'm not saying its wrong or right, it just is.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:20 am

If the discussion had turned into a screaming match I guess I might have understood, but It was a calm thoughtful positive discussion where do one was acting even the slightest bit offended.

It does look just like a case of the mods being complete douches

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:46 am

Frank did say some stuff in that thread that could be construed as a personal attack by people who aren't used to Frank, but the target (demonseed) didn't seem to be taking it that way. When you have two people who know each other (at least professionally) involved in these kinds of exchanges, I think you have to write it off as friendly banter unless it escalates to open flaming. Especially when Frank's discussions with all the anonymous people on that thread stuck to the substance.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:09 am

Sure, but bull doesn't like banter. Or anything that is a criticism of 'the team'

He's just not confrontational like that, and as the guy that runs the show, the show reflects him.

It's not a reasonable standard in the abstract, its just bull's standard.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:18 am

cthulhu wrote:Frank almost always uses competitive in RPG discussions, however it can come off as adversarial. Because it tends to be adversarial/polarizing, it can cause conflicts if the vision of the founders is not to have that sot of adversarial confrontation.

I believe he once said it's the best way to get noticed and get your point across, citing Stalin and Fucks news.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri May 29, 2009 7:31 am

There's good and bad things in either approach.

Competitive often takes a turn through confrontational into "taken it personal", which means that no good and logical a point may be, it won't be accepted just because the recipient doesn't like the poster.

Collaborative can easily turn into mob rule, where logical points are dismissed because they challenge what the opinion leaders and trendsetters like.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Fri May 29, 2009 8:12 am

Fuchs wrote: Competitive often takes a turn through confrontational into "taken it personal", which means that no good and logical a point may be, it won't be accepted just because the recipient is a dumbass who doesn't think, just has retarded emotional reactions

Fixed.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:40 am

cthulhu wrote:He's just not confrontational like that

How is it not confrontational to run around, find someone having an apparently tame conversation, call them out and threaten them with censorship or banning or whatever if they don't follow whatever ridiculous rule you just made up and aren't even applying to the guy they were talking with?

It seems very confrontational to me.

It isn't even passive aggressive, its just plain aggressive. Now you might argue he is a backstabbing cowardly "wants to keep the suppression in PMs and lie about it public" type.

But I think "non confrontational" is basically clearly just covering for a total asshole.

I say this with almost no interest in shadow run, or those forums, or the discussion involved. I had 20 minutes to kill before a doctors appointment and little better to do with it. Than read the thread out of idle curiosity and make this post.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:19 am

"demonseed elite"

I don't know where I crossed that handle before, but I know that it really fucking pissed me off.

Shadowlands maybe? I have no idea. But I know I hate him.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:29 pm

Koumei wrote:
cthulhu wrote:Frank almost always uses competitive in RPG discussions, however it can come off as adversarial. Because it tends to be adversarial/polarizing, it can cause conflicts if the vision of the founders is not to have that sot of adversarial confrontation.
I believe he once said it's the best way to get noticed and get your point across, citing Stalin and Fucks news.

The problem with competitive negotiations is its one time only. If they fail, you have no-where to go and generally have to escalate. It can be extremely effective - this is how unions taking strikes work, but it is essentially playing with fire. It is a powerful tool, but you can get your fingers burnt. Heck, competitive negotiations are an avenue of escalation when collaborative negotiations break down.

Consider how you might ask for a pay rise. The collaborative way is to build a business case, point out how you're doing more for the business etc. If that doesn't work, you can go competitive and demand money else you will leave - more effective at getting your point across definitely. The first approach can be ignored, but the demand and threat cannot. However you can also end up kicked to the curb.

So yeah, while I agree with the sentiment behind 'it gets noticed' sometimes it won't get the desired outcomes because it introduces an element of risk. If collaborative fails there are rarely repercussions. If competitive fail there may be serious repercussions.

@PL: I don;t agree with Bull, and I suspect he lost his temper. I think he made the wrong decision for the reasons you outline.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:40 pm

Wrong decision? Non-confrontational? What are you smoking?

There was nothing to make a decision about. Nothing happened. The Mods simply descended on me out of the blue without responding to any complaints or any arguments. They simply saw my name and picked a fight. All the confrontation there was stuff they brought.

Bull brought the anger and aggression. It actually stems literally from an event last year where he had just got his hands on D&D 4e and was all psyched about playing a Rogue/Wizard. And I warned him ahead of time that such a character wasn't really supported because Rogues need to keep two stats maxed to make their basic powers work and neither of those stats are Intelligence. So you can't actually supplement dagger fighting with magic missile if you want to actually hit with your attacks. He flipped out about how I was trying to ruin his fun and has been hitting me with banhammers and threat spam ever since.

Basically, he's a petulant jerk who picks fights and uses his mod powers to "win" them. Ironically, I actually am an innocent victim in this case.

-Username17

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:25 am

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... t&p=808373

Moar redirects.

It only took me 8 posts to get 2 warnings, but I've completely ignored them (Haven't even formally read them according to what the code will show) and they haven't done anything.

Insults, and baiting. Against the T.O.S. Also, making remarks about multiple accounts, which is against the T.O.S. Since this account has made the posts, if you do not iditify your additional account, we will be forced to close this one.

Thank you,
the Moderation Staff

You are now baiting, prohibited per the TOS

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

If you continue the thread crapfest going on, we'll be forced to further the warnings.

And now I've Banned him, and all other mods, from sending me PM's

.

What a serious design flaw.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:46 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Bull brought the anger and aggression. It actually stems literally from an event last year where he had just got his hands on D&D 4e and was all psyched about playing a Rogue/Wizard. And I warned him ahead of time that such a character wasn't really supported because Rogues need to keep two stats maxed to make their basic powers work and neither of those stats are Intelligence. So you can't actually supplement dagger fighting with magic missile if you want to actually hit with your attacks. He flipped out about how I was trying to ruin his fun and has been hitting me with banhammers and threat spam ever since.
-Username17

If you could link me to this thread I would be much obliged.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:29 am

He posted it about the fourth post on this thread.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:45 am

The final straw was here:

Bull Throws a Hissy Fit

But it was also about this thread here:

Math Equals Bullying!

-Username17

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:12 am

Last thread starts here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... t&p=695588

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:50 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Math Equals Bullying!

So I read this thread most of the way through. Fail didn't seem too bad... until the dumbfuck called Monks 'munchy'. What the Fuckity Fuckstar?